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Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:49) Martian said: Quote Have you ever noticed that thinker and WJ usually disapear when they get cornered into a no win situation. Don't worry they will bring up the same slop in another thread.
Hi Martian,http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
I am busy on the debates thread if you haven't noticed. I do have a life outside this board. Trinitarians are busy serving God while anti-trinitarians only talk about it.
bye Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
Hi TT,
There is no trinity in God's teachings.
Yet you claim to serve him??There will be an accounting.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,10:13) Quote (terraricca @ April 07 2010,17:45)
Wjif you twist the scriptures you become a unbeliever ,
TSo you say, but you have not shown anything to disprove our views. You spend to much time critisizing and making false accusations!
WJ
WJwen i said you teach the trinity do i lie ??
you never answer question ;Jesus says worship God only”
were is the trinity ,if it is not there ,then it is a lie,no??
Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:51) terraricca said: Quote Jesus say; if you believe me you will obey me “” t,
Then obey Jesus and confess Him as your only Master and Lord (Jude 4).
thinker
TTyou too are a good scriptures twister;
Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
if you read the all verse you can see Paul as all ready mention God ,so your conclusion is wrong .
your trinity stand s between you and the truth.
Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:49) Martian said: Quote Have you ever noticed that thinker and WJ usually disapear when they get cornered into a no win situation. Don't worry they will bring up the same slop in another thread.
Hi Martian,http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
I am busy on the debates thread if you haven't noticed. I do have a life outside this board. Trinitarians are busy serving God while anti-trinitarians only talk about it.
bye Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
It was a simple tactic to bring you and WJ back to this thread. After all you guys are entertaining. Better then the Three stooges. LOLBruce James in his online article entitled, Why Can’t a Jew Believe in Jesus? says,
“Christians give lip service to the Shema, but their theology says that there is a Trinity — G-d, Jesus (the “son of G-d”) and the “Holy Ghost.” They will try to teach you that this Trinity of three entities is really just one, like a “bunch of grapes” is one. But the Torah is very precise in its language. Throughout the Torah if echad is to be applied to a bunch of something, the word “agudat,” or a form of the word, would be used… Christians cite to Gen. 1:5 (“v'ai yehi erev, v'ai yehi boker, yom echad” — “. . . and there was evening and there was morning one day”) to suggest that echad modifies morning and evening and puts them together into a “bunch.” Clearly, it only modifies the word “day.” Similarly, they quote Numbers 13:23 which describes how the Israeli spies cut down a branch with one (“echad”) cluster of grapes. But here, too, echad modifies the word “cluster” and not grapes. In the Shema, echad modifies the word “G-d” and means precisely what it says — “one.” Moreover, if the Torah wanted us to know that G-d was more than One it would have told us then about the Trinity instead of making a specific point that there was only One G-d.”
Missionaries are wrong when they argue that the use in Deuteronomy 6:4 of the Hebrew word for One (Echad– ), rather than the word unique (Yachid–), teaches that G-d is a “composite unity” instead of an “absolute unity.” They claim that the Trinity is a composite unity just like a physical object that includes many different individual aspects (e.g.: one pen, composed of ink, plastic and metal). This reasoning is incorrect, since physical objects that exist within the context of time and space cannot be used to describe G-d who transcends these dimensions. Prior to Creation, G-d was alone and concepts of time, space and the plurality of numbers did not exist. The term unique (Yachid– ), correctly describes G-d's existence prior to Creation since it indicates the absence of any plurality, or of rapport with any created object.
The Shema utilizes the word “Echad” rather than “Yachid” for the following reason: We live in a physical world created by G-d and perceive finite objects, limited to time and space, that have a rapport with one another. This perception of plurality and the existence of numbers, which is the direct result of the process of Creation, can mistakenly cause us to think that G-d is not the only true existence. The Shema serves to proclaim that G-d is the only true existence despite the apparent contradiction brought about by Creation. To accomplish this, a cardinal number, like “one,” is required since it specifies the correct number to the exclusion of all others, as in the verse “there is “one–” not “two– .”” (Ecclesiastes 4:8) As finite beings, it would be inappropriate to describe our perception of G-d in the world utilizing the word unique (Yachid–), which describes G-d as he transcends time and space. By utilizing “One” in Deuteronomy 6:4, instead of the word “unique,” the verse not only affirms the absolute oneness of G-d, it refutes all other perceived possibilities.In Genesis the word “echad” and its feminine form “achat” occurs almost 50 times. It speaks of, among other things, one day (1:5; 27:45; 33:13), one place (1:9), one rib (2:21), one flesh (2:24), “one of us” (3:22), one language (11:1, 6), one people (11:6; 34:16, 22), “this one/lone” (19:9), one bush (21:15), one mountain (22:2), “one of the people” (26:10), “one single blessing” (27:38), one camp (32:8 v. 9 in Hebrew), “one single day” (33:13), “one single people” (34:16, 22), the same night (40:5; 41:11), one single straw (41:5, 22); one single meaning of two dreams (41:25, 26); one single man (42:11, 13), and one of the brothers (42:13, 16, 19, 27, 32, 33; 44:28).
The word “echad” and its feminine form “achat” is a numeric word. It is the most common word that is used in the Hebrew in order to express singularity. In the texts that we have presented here, we see that the word is used to describe all kinds of units, but even more specifically to denote singularity, and then often preceded by the article “ha” (“the”), “ha-echad”. The word “yachid” is used more sporadically in the Scriptures, only twice in the entire Chumash (the five books of Moses, the Pentateuch) and 11 times in the rest of the Scriptures. This means that the word echad is used many times in order to express singularity, even though it is not necessarily limited to that but can also express plural-unity, then however, with the emphasis on the unity and not on the plurality.
This means that in Genesis, we can find the word “echad” used as a unified entity. Genesis 2:24 speaks of the man and his wife being “one flesh”. The Hebrew word that is translated as “one” in this case is that same word “echad”. We also have other places, for instance 11:6 among other places, which speak of one people. This means then that the word “echad” can actually mean an entity that is put together of several persons. Then the question naturally arises if the word “echad” in the Shema passage could possible include more than one person.
In my searching for the truth concerning this subject, I received an article by Dr. Lawrence Duff-Forbes about the use of the word “echad” in Genesis. He claims that the word was only used 18 times in Genesis. Based on this, he comes to the conclusion that the use of the word “echad” in Genesis clearly expresses a plural entity more than singularity. He claims that its primary use gives a clear idea of the plural entity, while the idea of one absolute and undividable singularity is almost completely detached from theconcept. He goes on to say that those who revere the Scriptures as a single revelatory writing for mankind cannot allow that any interpretation of the word “echad” be added or held to that has no foundation in the Word of God. Dr. Duff-Forbes then finishes by saying that if one uses only the scriptural meaning of the word “echad” as a shining torch when studying the Shema Israel passage, one will understand that any application or perception of the word that tends to limit its meaning to only one absolute singularity would be a considerable distortion.
This might sound very convincing to one who is not familiar enough with the Hebrew Scriptures that he can find out for himself how the word is used. At closer investigation, one will see that the word “echad” does not occur only 18 times, but rather 23 times as a word standing alone. The question is if one is correct in using only 18 of the places in Genesis when the word “echad” stands alone (meaning without prepositions for example, and in its masculine form only) in order to understand the word’s complete meaning and use. Another question is whether or not Genesis alone is enough for a complete picture of the use of this word. The word occurs almost 50 times in Genesis alone, and nearly 900 times in the entire Tanach (OT). So, if the Shema passage is found in Deuteronomy, would not averaging out all the passages where the word occurs in the entire Pentateuch be a better foundation to stand on before coming to any such categorical conclusions? At closer study, it seems as though Dr. Duff-Forbes has made a biased judgment built on much too weak a foundation, built on a preconceived idea about the meaning and use of the word “echad” in the Scriptures.
We do not need to go further than to Genesis to see that the word “echad” does not have its primary emphasis on plurality but on singularity. Particularly in the seven places where “ha-echad” is used12 the singular meaning is completely dominant. The word “ha- echad” can be translated as “the only” or “the single”.
In Genesis 41:5, 22, the word “echad” is used, without the definite article, about one single straw and in 42:11, 13 it is used about one single man, in order to specifically emphasize singularity. If we step over into Exodus, we can see that the word “echad” is used when unconditional singularity is denoted, for instance to say that there was not one single fly left (8:27), that not one single animal died (9:6, 7), that not one single grasshopper was left (10:19), and that not one of the Egyptians escaped (14:28).
We could go through passage after passage and see that there are very many examples of how the word “echad” is used in order to denote absolute singularity. Since there is a word for “only”, “yachid”, this teaches us that the Eternal preferred the use of the word “echad” above “yachid” in the Chumash, except for in two places, when he wanted to express absolute singularity.
It is absolutely correct to say that the word “echad” is used with the meaning of a unified entity. On the other hand, it is not correct to say that this is the word’s primary definition. When the Scriptures want to specifically denote singularity, this word has been given great preference over the word “yachid”. This hints to us that the word not only can, but
12 2:11; 10:25; 19:9; 42:27, 32, 33; 44:28.
also ought to be understood as singularity in the Shema passage. This is the way that the Jewish people ha
ve understood this word for millennia, and have therefore spread out the truth in the world about monotheism over the delusion of polytheism. You could ask yourself if the Eternal would have chosen to use the word “echad” about himself if he had meant to show the world that he is more than one, which is the primary emphasis of those who speak for the trinity doctrine. After all, it does not say that the Eternal is three, but only one.
One of Us
We are going to end this chapter by looking a bit closer at one of the texts that we mentioned in passing earlier, Genesis 3:22,
“The Eternal Elohim said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he put forth his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever…’”(HNV revised)
Let us look at the words “one of us”, in Hebrew “echad mimenu”.
If we put ourselves on the side of those who advocate the trinity doctrine, we would say that this text, as well as the text in 1:26, clearly reveals that the Eternal is more than one, since he is speaking in plural form. We would then assume that he is speaking as a threefold personality. The expression “one of us” would then be referring to one of the three persons in the Trinity, most likely the Son.
One problem that arises however is when we look at the word “one”, which once again is “echad”. If there really was a triune God who was speaking of himself here and mentioning one of the three as “one of us”, how can the one be “echad” if this word means a unified entity. Did not “echad” mean that the three were one? How then can the word “echad” be used for only one of the three?
As we can see, the argument for “echad” having only the meaning of a unified entity, even found in one of the passages that are used as proof material for the trinity doctrine, falls apart.
Here we summarize this chapter by saying that the use of the word “echad” in the five books of Moses shows us that its primarily definition is a singular unit rather than a unified entity. The fact that the Eternal has chosen this word rather than “yachid” in order to express absolute singularity gives us a hint that we ought to understand the word this way when it is used in the Shema passage in Deuteronomy 9:4-9. Here is the Jewish confession of faith, which also Yeshua the Messiah confessed. When every Jew, at least twice a day, prays that the Eternal is one, it does not mean that he is three, but one alone and that there is no one beside him.Quote (martian @ April 09 2010,00:49) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:49) Martian said: Quote Have you ever noticed that thinker and WJ usually disapear when they get cornered into a no win situation. Don't worry they will bring up the same slop in another thread.
Hi Martian,http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
I am busy on the debates thread if you haven't noticed. I do have a life outside this board. Trinitarians are busy serving God while anti-trinitarians only talk about it.
bye Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
It was a simple tactic to bring you and WJ back to this thread. After all you guys are entertaining. Better then the Three stooges. LOL
Hi Martian,I am glad I entertain you. After all, this is the only reason you come from your planet to our earth. You come just for the entertainment of it and not because aliens have truth or seek truth.
Our planet welcomes you
thinker
Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2010,17:06) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:51) terraricca said: Quote Jesus say; if you believe me you will obey me “” t,
Then obey Jesus and confess Him as your only Master and Lord (Jude 4).
thinker
TTyou too are a good scriptures twister;
Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
if you read the all verse you can see Paul as all ready mention God ,so your conclusion is wrong .
your trinity stand s between you and the truth.
t,The oldest Greek manuscripts we have do not have the noun “God” in verse 4. They simply read, “Our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.”
The word “God” was added sometime later.
thinker
Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2010,01:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,10:13) Quote (terraricca @ April 07 2010,17:45)
Wjif you twist the scriptures you become a unbeliever ,
TSo you say, but you have not shown anything to disprove our views. You spend to much time critisizing and making false accusations!
WJ
WJwen i said you teach the trinity do i lie ??
you never answer question ;Jesus says worship God only”
were is the trinity ,if it is not there ,then it is a lie,no??
TJust because your eyes have not been opened to the truth of Gods word does not mean that what you say is true!
WJ
To All………God is a single UNIT composed of SEVEN SPIRIT POWERS. There is no triune GOD in existence. But ONE GOD Containing Seven Spirits These Spirits are connected with POWERS (Elohim). One LORD or YHVH controls and is the source of all seven of these POWERS. HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD or YHVH OUR GOD (POWERS) IS (ONE) LORD or YHVH. This is the way i understand it. The Seven Spirits (intellects) of GOD go throughout all the earth they are the eyes and creative powers of ONE LORD.
peace and love to you all………………..gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,03:06) Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2010,01:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,10:13) Quote (terraricca @ April 07 2010,17:45)
Wjif you twist the scriptures you become a unbeliever ,
TSo you say, but you have not shown anything to disprove our views. You spend to much time critisizing and making false accusations!
WJ
WJwen i said you teach the trinity do i lie ??
you never answer question ;Jesus says worship God only”
were is the trinity ,if it is not there ,then it is a lie,no??
TJust because your eyes have not been opened to the truth of Gods word does not mean that what you say is true!
WJ
WJ
that may be your answer but your answer is made to try to avoid to answering the true question,the trinity is not supported by the scriptures,
and call people blind does not show your enlightenment.Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,02:38) Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2010,17:06) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:51) terraricca said: Quote Jesus say; if you believe me you will obey me “” t,
Then obey Jesus and confess Him as your only Master and Lord (Jude 4).
thinker
TTyou too are a good scriptures twister;
Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
if you read the all verse you can see Paul as all ready mention God ,so your conclusion is wrong .
your trinity stand s between you and the truth.
t,The oldest Greek manuscripts we have do not have the noun “God” in verse 4. They simply read, “Our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.”
The word “God” was added sometime later.
thinker
TTwhy you do not show a copy of tha scripture as it was in the early days.
don't expect us to believe you and your word,you may have credit but in the mean time pay cash.
Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,02:32) Quote (martian @ April 09 2010,00:49) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:49) Martian said: Quote Have you ever noticed that thinker and WJ usually disapear when they get cornered into a no win situation. Don't worry they will bring up the same slop in another thread.
Hi Martian,http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
I am busy on the debates thread if you haven't noticed. I do have a life outside this board. Trinitarians are busy serving God while anti-trinitarians only talk about it.
bye Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
It was a simple tactic to bring you and WJ back to this thread. After all you guys are entertaining. Better then the Three stooges. LOL
Hi Martian,I am glad I entertain you. After all, this is the only reason you come from your planet to our earth. You come just for the entertainment of it and not because aliens have truth or seek truth.
Our planet welcomes you
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
In your case you are correct. You aliens have no truth (on this matter) and do not seek it (on this matter)Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,02:32) Quote (martian @ April 09 2010,00:49) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,09:49) Martian said: Quote Have you ever noticed that thinker and WJ usually disapear when they get cornered into a no win situation. Don't worry they will bring up the same slop in another thread.
Hi Martian,http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
I am busy on the debates thread if you haven't noticed. I do have a life outside this board. Trinitarians are busy serving God while anti-trinitarians only talk about it.
bye Martian
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
It was a simple tactic to bring you and WJ back to this thread. After all you guys are entertaining. Better then the Three stooges. LOL
Hi Martian,I am glad I entertain you. After all, this is the only reason you come from your planet to our earth. You come just for the entertainment of it and not because aliens have truth or seek truth.
Our planet welcomes you
http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
thinker
I noticed you did not respond to my posts that totally and completely rebuffed you original posts.
Elohyim is a plural of majesty and not of persons.
Echad is an adjective that modifies a noun. It means the numeral one. It can modify a singular object of a group of objects. It will always mean one (singular) object OR one (singular) group of objects. Thee is nothing in the word itself that indicates a plural application or compound unity.
When scripture says one God/LORD Echad Elohyim it literally means one mighty God.
This is the true Hebrew word. AS you said “Read it and weep.”Martian said;
Quote Elohyim is a plural of majesty and not of persons.
First, those who assert the “plural of majesty” theory have no examples from scripture.Second, the “plural of majesty” concept was born from a statement by Queen Elizabeth when she said, “We are not amused.” Uh, she lived in the 16th century dude!
Third, when God said, “let US make man in OUR image He had not revealed Himself as a King yet.
Martian:
Quote Echad is an adjective that modifies a noun. It means the numeral one. It can modify a singular object of a group of objects.
This is a blatant lie! The word “yachid” is the word for a solitary one. The word “echad” may be a solitary one or a plural one.Example: Gen 11:6: Elohim said that they were ONE people. See also 34:16, 22. In none of these examples is “echad” used to modify a singular object within a group of objects. It is the group of objects that is modified.
The USA is made up of 50 separate, sovereign states. Yet it is ONE nation. It is not correct to say that the word “one” modifies a singular state within the group of states.
Your sources have manipulated language to their own destruction. And the “plural of majesty” idea is a figment of the imagination.
thinker
Martian,
Sorry I didn't get back to you.
I only just saw your post to me.
Thanks – and Yes – Noted indeed!
Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2010,11:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,03:06) Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2010,01:01) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,10:13) Quote (terraricca @ April 07 2010,17:45)
Wjif you twist the scriptures you become a unbeliever ,
TSo you say, but you have not shown anything to disprove our views. You spend to much time critisizing and making false accusations!
WJ
WJwen i said you teach the trinity do i lie ??
you never answer question ;Jesus says worship God only”
were is the trinity ,if it is not there ,then it is a lie,no??
TJust because your eyes have not been opened to the truth of Gods word does not mean that what you say is true!
WJ
WJ
that may be your answer but your answer is made to try to avoid to answering the true question,the trinity is not supported by the scriptures,
and call people blind does not show your enlightenment.
TIsn't calling people blind your specialty?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,15:45) Martian said; Quote Elohyim is a plural of majesty and not of persons.
First, those who assert the “plural of majesty” theory have no examples from scripture.Second, the “plural of majesty” concept was born from a statement by Queen Elizabeth when she said, “We are not amused.” Uh, she lived in the 16th century dude!
Third, when God said, “let US make man in OUR image He had not revealed Himself as a King yet.
Martian:
Quote Echad is an adjective that modifies a noun. It means the numeral one. It can modify a singular object of a group of objects.
This is a blatant lie! The word “yachid” is the word for a solitary one. The word “echad” may be a solitary one or a plural one.Example: Gen 11:6: Elohim said that they were ONE people. See also 34:16, 22. In none of these examples is “echad” used to modify a singular object within a group of objects. It is the group of objects that is modified.
The USA is made up of 50 separate, sovereign states. Yet it is ONE nation. It is not correct to say that the word “one” modifies a singular state within the group of states.
Your sources have manipulated language to their own destruction. And the “plural of majesty” idea is a figment of the imagination.
thinker
JackTrue, and he has not one scripture to prove that the word 'yachid' or 'bad' was ever used in describing Elohyim, that is because there isn't! The Holy Spirit chose the word “Echad”.
WJ
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