One and the same

[terraricca]

sf

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The book speaks, from the beginning, of the Lord Jesus Christ, saying of Him that He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, which is, was, and is to come, the Almighty. It is clear this is Jesus, for He says He died, and “behold, I am alive for evermore.” He also says He has the keys to hell and death. Now, Who other than God can say that?

sorry but all can be said and applied to Christ ,

if we apply ;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

so see;God is the father of all what he create ,but his son is over all creation that is from after his own creation ,not before,

so when Christ talks he always talks from the same position ,because no matter what he is still only the son but never the father,

now read scriptures and see if you can dismantle that view,

so Christ is the beginning ;because he is the first of all creation that God started,he is the end ,because at the end Christ turns all thing to his father and submit himself to him,
same thing he is the alpha and omega ,means the same thing.

he is the Lord of lords and king of the kings of the earth ,but God the father ;is God of gods and Lord of lords ,so you can see this is one step higher than the son Christ,

Jn 4:34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.;;Jesus was talking about his father

nowhere in scriptures is Jesus takes away the position of his father but always stay at the second position.

Jn 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Jn 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

it is in this way that Jesus said to Philip if you see me (this means seeing him as the true messiah and son of God)then you can see the works that the father does trough the son,and have the understanding that God want s to save men not destroy him,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 21 2011,22:23)

and no im not going to cut any deals, or do anything of the sort.  if you cant answer easy yes or no questions without being a pain than its worthless to have a discussion with you. Its not worth it, I shoulnt have to limit myself nor limit my ability to discuss a topic of my intrest to your standards.

   

This from the guy who made a whole thread about RULES to debate by!  

Okay D.  I'm fine with letting this go.  You are on drugs if you think the Son of God is the Father to himself.  And that he prayed to himself while simultaneously being on earth and in heaven as two different beings.  And that he asked himself to remove the cup from himself. And asked himself why he had forsaken himself.

That's just the TIP of the iceberg, dude.  I simply have no more interest in dealing with THIS nonsense than I did in dealing with the Professor's nonsense about the Holy Spirit being a chick, and the mother of Jesus.  

Deuces,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Pierre,

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so now Christ has a father while in your interpretation he is himself the father explain how he can be the son and the father ?

Pierre before I attempt to answer your question let me point something out.
Mt 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Did you notice that Jesus says Himself says that “No one knows the Son” yet weren't the diciples not presents “knowing Him”.  So obvisouly Its either Jesus is lying that no one knows Him or He meant somthing else.

To answer your question obviously what you think “Father” and “Son” means is flawed because its based on Human concept of Father and Son, but if you take a closer look its the same God having a role as a Father and a Son.  

In the same way, (as I've repeated many times) I am a Son and a Father (If i have kids)  in the very same time.  
Does that make me two people? of course not.

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so was Christ lying when he say only the father knew and you say he is the father ??

IF you want to put it that way than Its either He lied saying that seeing Him is seeing the Father, or Christ was lying by not knowing.  

OF course I would say niether, because the Bible specfically states that He took the form of a “Servant”.
Did you not know that God has the power to forget?
Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
If Jehovah can limit His infinite knowledge than of course He can humble Himself to point where He doesn't know the time or the hour.  
Can you voluntarily forget? Go ahead try it, forget about how grass looks like? or the sound of water? you can't!

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for a son that is the father he places his father ahead of him ,why??

Hence why He took the Role of a Servant and be obedient where we could not be, and He also didn't reveal Himself and charged the diciples many times not to reveal His identity.

how do someone come from himself ??
If you want to think of Jesus as a “someone” like any other human than your concept is flawed.
Exodus 29:45
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.

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now the father gives to the son ;but you say the son give to himself ??[

Its the same thing He did with the Tabernacle, The Flesh is limits but the Word who was made Flesh was always God.
So therefore giving to the flesh, is giving the ability to do His will.

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[/b]why is Jesus always put his father ahead of himself ? if they would be the same person would they lie to all and make us believe that their is only one but a all quantity of different names like ;the son the father ??[/B]

Again, if you want to Limit God to how Humans work, than you would be right, but its GOD and you can't subject him to the limits of this world.   You can't ASSUME that they are diffferent entities.  

In other words, God never lied.  
The Son and Father are not names, they are Roles that God takes.  
The fact that Jesus says “I'm leaving the world” means that its beyond the boundries of what we as humans live.  
So knowing that No one has ever Seen God, and also knowing that the Tabernacle was as much God as anything else, than Why could not the body of Jesus contain who God IS?

[SimplyForgiven]

Pierre,

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so see;God is the father of all what he create ,but his son is over all creation that is from after his own creation ,not before,

That makes no sense, did you not read 1:18?
“So that in EVERYTHING he might have the supremacy”?'

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so when Christ talks he always talks from the same position ,because no matter what he is still only the son but never the father,

Also notice, Pauls all of the sudden has “revelation” that Christ created??? in Collosians???
Its either he thinks that Christ is creator as God himself or he is making this stuff up out of no where.
There is only TWO biblical support that says that Christ created which is in Hebrews and in Collosians.

So its either the writers believe that Jesus is God or that they were making new stuff up.
It is clear that only God created everything.

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now read scriptures and see if you can dismantle that view, so Christ is the beginning ;because he is the first of all creation that God started,he is the end ,because at the end Christ turns all thing to his father and submit himself to him, same thing he is the alpha and omega ,means the same thing.

I've always dismantled you.
oh really?
Soooo Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Soo the LORD is the begining or.. the first or the last?? huh i thought Christ was,..nooo The Lord? um who is who?
Who is first or the last?  Alpha omega?

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he is the Lord of lords and king of the kings of the earth ,but God the father ;is God of gods and Lord of lords ,so you can see this is one step higher than the son Christ,

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2011,08:20)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 21 2011,22:23) and no im not going to cut any deals, or do anything of the sort.  if you cant answer easy yes or no questions without being a pain than its worthless to have a discussion with you. Its not worth it, I shoulnt have to limit myself nor limit my ability to discuss a topic of my intrest to your standards.     This from the guy who made a whole thread about RULES to debate by!   Okay D.  I'm fine with letting this go.  You are on drugs if you think the Son of God is the Father to himself.  And that he prayed to himself while simultaneously being on earth and in heaven as two different beings.  And that he asked himself to remove the cup from himself.  And asked himself why he had forsaken himself. That's just the TIP of the iceberg, dude.  I simply have no more interest in dealing with THIS nonsense than I did in dealing with the Professor's nonsense about the Holy Spirit being a chick, and the mother of Jesus.   Deuces, mike

Mike,
Are you Done?

What part of I dont need to discuss with this with you don't you understand?
Is this your way of tempting me to debate with you? or provoke me?

What need was it to bring up a bunch of points that will only lead to Me responding to refute everything you said, and It only ending up where you can't respect a mutual discussion between two people?

You made it clear “I didn't see the furthering of the conversation as anything other than a big waste of my time and energy.”
And than you hypocritally continued.

So again, doesn't that make you the sick one here?
You could have just said “I'm fine with letting this go.”
But no, you continued.

Mike, Do yourself a favor and don't be a hypocrite.

Don't say that your going to “let it go” and than turn around and than provoke me to respond by posting up points that make YOU sound like your on drugs.

IF your letting it go than why was there need to reaffirm your position?  

“Thats just the TIP of the iceberg, dude.”
I simple have no more interest in dealing with YOU whom says one things and than turns around and does another which all points to hypocrisy.

Dueces hypocrite

[terraricca]

sf

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Pierre before I attempt to answer your question let me point something out. Mt 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Did you notice that Jesus says Himself says that “No one knows the Son” yet weren't the diciples not presents “knowing Him”. So obvisouly Its either Jesus is lying that no one knows Him or He meant somthing else.

In the beginning Jesus calls his disciples and the man they knew was Jesus from Nazareth , except for the witnessing of John the Baptist

JN 1:32 John testified saying, “ I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
JN 1:33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’
JN 1:34 “I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

and so Christ did not lie ,but has he was teaching them they become aware of who he really is ;as the miracle where going on in numbers the disciples where instructed and also learn about his connection to his father there God,;;;JN 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner

JN 5:36 “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

JN 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “ My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
JN 7:17 “ If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Lk 4:41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

after a while his disciples knew who he really was ;;Jn 11:27 “Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”

Mt 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

MT 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Mt 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. SO THIS SCRIPTURE IS SHOW TO BE TRUE AND ACCOMPLISHED,BECAUSE cHRIST HAD SHOW HIS DISCIPLES THAT HE WAS WHO HE SAYS HE WAS AND PROVED IT WITHOUT A DOUBT

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Again, if you want to Limit God to how Humans work, than you would be right, but its GOD and you can't subject him to the limits of this world. You can't ASSUME that they are diffferent entities.

i do not limit God ,God as send his son to make us connect with him and he made his only son become a man so he can live among us and understand us and talk to us directly and show us to whom want to know his father ,like he says to that Samaritan women;; JN 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

so if you follow those words you will know God but if you do not you do not know God even if you know the bible and can quote all the scriptures

Ex 29:42 This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the Tent of Meeting before the Lord, where I will meet with you to speak there to you.
Ex 29:43 There I will meet with the Israelites, and the Tent of Meeting shall be sanctified by My glory [the Shekinah, God’s visible presence].
Ex 29:44 And I will sanctify the Tent of Meeting and the altar; I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons to minister to Me in the priest’s office.
Ex 29:45 And I will dwell among the Israelites and be their God

the reason that God was there was trough there obedience to his law,the priests where the physical presence of God because they where his representatives

so it is not what you say ,but what scriptures are teaching,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 23 2011,23:30)

You made it clear “I didn't see the furthering of the conversation as anything other than a big waste of my time and energy.” And than you hypocritally continued.

I was giving you a couple of things to think about, that's all.  I'm sorry little girl, I didn't mean to make you cry.  

Deuces (and you know I only use that sign off because you said I couldn't ),
mike

[Ed J]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 24 2011,16:01)

To answer your question obviously what you think “Father” and “Son” means is flawed because its based on Human concept of Father and Son, but if you take a closer look its the same God having a role as a Father and a Son.   In the same way, (as I've repeated many times) I am a Son and a Father (If i have kids)  in the very same time.   Does that make me two people? of course not.

Hi Dennison,

Your logic is a bit lacking here my friend!
You are not your father's father nor your son's son either.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 24 2011,16:16)

Also notice, Pauls all of the sudden has “revelation” that Christ created??? in Collosians??? Its either he thinks that Christ is creator as God himself or he is making this stuff up out of no where.

Hi Dennison,

Have you not considered that you are attributing these things to Jesus, when Paul is really referencing the father.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2011,05:07)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 23 2011,23:30) You made it clear “I didn't see the furthering of the conversation as anything other than a big waste of my time and energy.” And than you hypocritally continued. I was giving you a couple of things to think about, that's all.  I'm sorry little girl, I didn't mean to make you cry.   Deuces (and you know I only use that sign off because you said I couldn't ), mike

Mike,
Your the one always crying about how you want things lozer.
Soooo whateverr, oh so how mature of you old man you are such a great rolemodel of maturity. (<<Sarcasm)

cough cough

Your still forbidden to do so because anyone older than 30 is off limits.. so since for you that was likeee a LONG time ago.. your totally forbidden.

So duece old man, its only for the young people.

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 22 2011,19:51)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2011,10:07) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 19 2011,15:27) Hi Dennison. I thank you, and I see Mike thanks you as well. 1) I don't see you refer to any test; but we know Jesus was tested in Luke 4:3-12. 2) Read: Mark 2:8, Luke 5:22, Luke 20:23 & John 6:15; now please answer my question. 3) The Godhead. Do you not agree that The Father is sitting on the throne?   4) Pay attention: in your comment you say Jesus, but in your question you ask “WHO”? 5) The “ONLY” place it mentions Jesus sitting on God's throne with God, is where we get to sit with him on the throne as well (must be a PRETTY BIG throne; aye?). (See Rev.3:21) 6) It says “Him”, because it is “Him”(YHVH) sitting on the throne. 7) A) See My Points in 5 & 6.  B) They are afraid of the Lamb, because they recognize that it's YHVH's actions through the Lamb. 8) YEAAAAA!!! We agree, break out the champagne! 9) It's God's grace. (I did read your first post) 10) Jesus gave himself for us. (I did read your first post) 11) Now we have more to dialog about; when you address my latest comments. (Peace to you) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org 1) You didnt read the context of the orginal post: I wish to point to one book in particular at this time, the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The book speaks, from the beginning, of the Lord Jesus Christ, saying of Him that He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, which is, was, and is to come, the Almighty. It is clear this is Jesus, for He says He died, and “behold, I am alive for evermore.” He also says He has the keys to hell and death. Now, Who other than God can say that? “He that is our God is the God of salvation, and unto God the LORD belong the issues from death” (Psalms 68:20). Nothing to do with an actual “test” as you assume, but the question that Paul was making was refering “testimony”. In other words who's testimony/testfied is this? the Fathers or the Sons. So you misinterpreted the question. 2) You didnt answer my question so why answer yours Ed? 3)The Father who is one and the same with the Son as God is sitting on the throne. 4)And? so what? We know that Jesus was talking to the churchs.  So what Ed? 5) Actually Rev 5 and many other places presents that the “Lamb” is sitting on the throne.  and In rev 3, Jesus says “My throne”.   6) “Him” is not plural. 7) Your speculating, unless you can find a scripture that says “they recognize that it's YHVH's actions through the Lamb.” in Revelations, and in the context which you will not find beceause its not there. 8)Ight 9) Paul and announces “Christs grace” 10) Jesus who is God, gave himself for Us because God is the only Savoir. 11)Im just obliging out of respect, but i have no intrest in your questions because i feel that its a waste of my time. Hi Dennison, 1) You're burbling things together, Dennison.     God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead. (Gal.1:1)     God, by his HolySpirit, raised Jesus from the dead. (Rom.8:11) 2) Naturally the Son can do what the father does.     Will you now answer my question? 3) Where do you get that? 4) 5) Where in verse 5? 6) Exactly! 7) It's YHVH's actions through Jesus, is an idea that is interwoven throughout the entire Bible. (2Cor.5:19 is one such example) 8) Ight? 9) Where? 10) Are you saying God died? 11) Is that because you feel no amount of evidence will change your mind? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Dennison

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 24 2011,23:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2011,05:07) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 23 2011,23:30) You made it clear “I didn't see the furthering of the conversation as anything other than a big waste of my time and energy.” And than you hypocritally continued. I was giving you a couple of things to think about, that's all.  I'm sorry little girl, I didn't mean to make you cry.   Deuces (and you know I only use that sign off because you said I couldn't ), mike Mike, Your the one always crying about how you want things lozer. Soooo whateverr, oh so how mature of you old man you are such a great rolemodel of maturity.  (<<Sarcasm) cough cough Your still forbidden to do so because anyone older than 30 is off limits.. so since for you that was likeee a LONG time ago.. your totally forbidden. So duece old man, its only for the young people.

Okay D-dogg. I'll leave “Deuces” to you from now on. I was just trying to get your goat.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2011,12:39)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2011,19:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2011,12:01) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2011,15:49) Hi Dennison, Get this Paul Cohen guy back here! If you are going to quote him, let him answer our questions himself! Last time he was here, he “RAN” from our questioning; both myself and Bodhitharta's! And mine, after slinging a bunch of insults at me first.   Hi Mike, Please forgive me; I forgot Paul Cohen “RAN” from you too! God bless   Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org You are forgiven Ed.   I'm with you on this thread.  If we are suppose to be discussing the beliefs and understandings of PAUL COHEN, then Paul ought to be here to field our many questions and points. I might look over the OP at a later time and make some comments.  But since the post is really from someone who's not here to defend his statements, then why bother with it? peace, mike

Yes, I agree!

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2011,14:42)

YOU should also be held accountable, Ed.  I've seen your “answers” to the blue questions.  And I agree with Dennison that you are playing word games and being an annoyance. Try giving solid, plainly worded answers instead of what you gave, and perhaps you wouldn't annoy people like him and me so much. I mean, really.  Look at your answer to the first question.   Or the last two?   Those aren't answers, Ed. mike

Hi Mike,

My responses are geared for ongoing dialog into his query.
They are to get the one asking questions to dig deeper.

People that ask questions that they believe they already know the answers
are hardly worth the time to respond to. I hope you understand.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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