Omnipresent

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Perhaps this subject deserves it's own forum.

[david]

Quote

The pharisees believed God was omnipresent. Much like the trinity doctrine, by teaching that God is omnipresent Christendom has confused matters and made it more difficult for God to be real to his worshipers. God is a spirit Person, which means that he does not have a material body, but a spiritual one. “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.” (1 Cor. 15:44; John 4:24) God being an individual, a Person with a spirit body, has a place where he resides, and so he could not be at any other place at the same time. Thus we read at 1 Kings 8:43 that the heavens are God’s “established PLACE of dwelling.” Also, we are told at Hebrews 9:24 that “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” Moreover, the disciple Stephen and the apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus Christ. So Jehovah God must be just as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is. (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9) Those Christians who have a hope of eventually living in heaven are assured that they will see God and also be like him, showing that Jehovah God truly is a person and has a body as well as a certain location.—1 John 3:2. It could well be that some have been confused due to the fact that God is allseeing; also his power can be felt everywhere. (2 Chron. 16:9) We might illustrate these facts by likening God to an electric power plant. It has a certain location on a certain street in a city. But its electricity is distributed over all the city, providing light and power. And so with Jehovah God. He has a location in the highest heavens, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt everywhere, over all the universe. Perhaps this analogy would explain an apparent contradiction in some's understanding of Ps 139 with other scriptures.

“Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
It seems to me that “the person of God” is in heaven, and that this is His “established place of dwelling.” (1 Ki 8:43)
If he dwells everywhere all the time at the same time, then I don't see how the heavens would be His established “place” of dwelling. This scripture indicates that there is a place he dwells, and that place is not everywhere. And if it were everywhere, 1 kings 8 would be wrong.
Does not the Bible say of Him: “no man will see me and yet live”? If he is everywhere, and my eyes are open, then why am I still alive?

These are some opening thoughts. Who can add?

[david]

Quote

Hi david, What did Paul mean when he said to the Athenians in Acts 17.27 “that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us, for in Him we live and move and exist..”? or 2 Chr 5.19 “.God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”? or Phil 2.13 ” for it is God who is at work in you , both to will and to work..”?

ISAIAH 55:6
“Search for Jehovah, YOU people, while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near.”

Nick, as the scripture says, He is not far off from each of us. It also says to seek God and find Him. Do you think this means to physically search for Him? Have you found God Nick? Can you show him to me physically? Or is this scripture referring to something else?
The 2 Chron 5:19 (I presume you mean Corinthians).
There are a few ways that this verse is translated and I'm not certain that “God was in Christ” is the correct way.
As for Phil 2:13, do you take that to mean that God is literally in you Nick?
Or rather, Jehovah ‘acts within us,’ in that his holy spirit is working in our mind and heart, helping us “to will and to act.”

Anyway, let's look at this in more detail. Anyone?

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ April 16 2006,01:53)

Quote The pharisees believed God was omnipresent. Much like the trinity doctrine, by teaching that God is omnipresent Christendom has confused matters and made it more difficult for God to be real to his worshipers. God is a spirit Person, which means that he does not have a material body, but a spiritual one. “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.” (1 Cor. 15:44; John 4:24) God being an individual, a Person with a spirit body, has a place where he resides, and so he could not be at any other place at the same time. Thus we read at 1 Kings 8:43 that the heavens are God’s “established PLACE of dwelling.” Also, we are told at Hebrews 9:24 that “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” Moreover, the disciple Stephen and the apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus Christ. So Jehovah God must be just as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is. (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9) Those Christians who have a hope of eventually living in heaven are assured that they will see God and also be like him, showing that Jehovah God truly is a person and has a body as well as a certain location.—1 John 3:2. It could well be that some have been confused due to the fact that God is allseeing; also his power can be felt everywhere. (2 Chron. 16:9) We might illustrate these facts by likening God to an electric power plant. It has a certain location on a certain street in a city. But its electricity is distributed over all the city, providing light and power. And so with Jehovah God. He has a location in the highest heavens, but his active force, his holy spirit, furnishes enlightenment, and its force can be felt everywhere, over all the universe. Perhaps this analogy would explain an apparent contradiction in some's understanding of Ps 139 with other scriptures. “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” It seems to me that “the person of God” is in heaven, and that this is His “established place of dwelling.” (1 Ki 8:43) If he dwells everywhere all the time at the same time, then I don't see how the heavens would be His established “place” of dwelling.  This scripture indicates that there is a place he dwells, and that place is not everywhere.  And if it were everywhere, 1 kings 8 would be wrong. Does not the Bible say of Him: “no man will see me and yet live”?  If he is everywhere, and my eyes are open, then why am I still alive? These are some opening thoughts.  Who can add?

Hi David,
Scripture records times when God dwelled on earth.
“Num 5.3
“…I dwell in their midst”
Num 35.34
“…for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst..”
Lv 26.11
“I will make My dwelling among you..”

He never left heaven in so doing though did He?

God is bigger than the boxes we humans know about surely?

[david]

Quote

Hi David, Scripture records times when God dwelled on earth. “Num 5.3 “…I dwell in their midst” Num 35.34 “…for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst..” Lv 26.11 “I will make My dwelling among you..”

Right, but in saying all these things, it just shows that he does in fact have an “established place of dwelling,” heaven.
And if he was everywhere at all times, then he wouldn't have to speak of making his dwelling elsewhere.
Numerous times he is spoken of as being in heaven. If he is omnipresent, then this is as meaninglessthis as saying that He has an “established dwelling place.”

Really, the scriptures you show speak of him being with them in spirit. God does not literally dwell in handmade temples. We've been through this.
1 KINGS 8:27
““But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!”
ACTS 17:24
“The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples,”

As you say, “God is bigger than the boxes we humans know about.” Or as inspired scripture puts it: “The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!”
We only know what the scriptures tell us. And they tell us He has an “established place of dwelling.”

Stephen and the apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus Christ. So Jehovah God must be just as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is. (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9)

The belief that God is everywhere, seems to me to be somewhat like the belief that God is in the trees, in this rock, in the pen on this desk. This belief tends to de-personify Him. But the Bible used the word “person” with reference to Him:
“Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
Why would Christ have to enter into heaven if God is everywhere? hmmm. It's because that's where the “person of God” was and is.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:03)

Quote Hi David, Scripture records times when God dwelled on earth. “Num 5.3 “…I dwell in their midst” Num 35.34 “…for I the Lord am dwelling in the midst..” Lv 26.11 “I will make My dwelling among you..” Right, but in saying all these things, it just shows that he does in fact have an “established place of dwelling,” heaven.   And if he was everywhere at all times, then he wouldn't have to speak of making his dwelling elsewhere.   Numerous times he is spoken of as being in heaven.  If he is omnipresent, then this is as meaninglessthis as saying that He has an “established dwelling place.” Really, the scriptures you show speak of him being with them in spirit.  God does not literally dwell in handmade temples.  We've been through this. 1 KINGS 8:27 ““But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!” ACTS 17:24 “The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples,” As you say, “God is bigger than the boxes we humans know about.”  Or as inspired scripture puts it: “The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!” We only know what the scriptures tell us.  And they tell us He has an “established place of dwelling.” Stephen and the apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus Christ.  So Jehovah God must be just as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is. (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9) The belief that God is everywhere, seems to me to be somewhat like the belief that God is in the trees, in this rock, in the pen on this desk.  This belief tends to de-personify Him.  But the Bible used the word “person” with reference to Him: “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” Why would Christ have to enter into heaven if God is everywhere?  hmmm.  It's because that's where the “person of God” was and is.

Hi david,
When I say I am with you in spirit it only means we share an understanding and a commitment in working together.

When God is with Christ and us in Spirit instead it means He can show His nature and works His miracles through us.

Christ said he worked as the finger of God. He was the ultimate vessel for God to dwell and work in and through.

More than understanding or mutual support.

[david]

OK, God is everywhere, In Jesus, in you, in the air, in Satan…oops, that doesn't sound right.
Of course Jehovah was with His Son, Jesus. He is the Creator of all things. His wisdom and proof of his power and love are found in everything. His holy spirit can be in people. But God himself, the “person” of God, whose “established place of dwelling” is in heaven, is not everywhere all the time. If He was, why would Christ have to enter into heaven to appear before God?
“Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ April 17 2006,01:41)

OK, God is everywhere, In Jesus, in you, in the air, in Satan…oops, that doesn't sound right. Of course Jehovah was with His Son, Jesus.  He is the Creator of all things.  His wisdom and proof of his power and love are found in everything.  His holy spirit can be in people.  But God himself, the “person” of God, whose “established place of dwelling” is in heaven, is not everywhere all the time.  If He was, why would Christ have to enter into heaven to appear before God? “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”

Father + Son +THEIR Spirit= God
you believe that the HOLY Spirit is everywhere then you believe that Jehovah is everywhere.

How does Jehovah know when an sparrow falls? Suppose more than one sparrow falls on each side of the earth. Does Jehovah know how many sparrows fell and where?

I believe you are worth more that a sparrow, don't you?

[david]

“Father + Son + THEIR Spirit = God”
What does that mean?
I thought:
Father = God.
If I understand your equation, you have to have the Father and the Son and I presume you mean Jehovah's holy spirit to have God. This is what the symbols and equal sign mean.
And, no, I don't believe that the holy spirit is absolutely everywhere. I didn't say that. As an extreme example, I don't believe God's holy spirit is in Satan.

Perhaps Jehovah knows when a sparrow falls to the earth dead because the spirit returns to God, the spirit that is in ALL living earthly creatures. Just a thought. Of course I don't know the answer. And nor do you.

How does Jehovah know when a sparrow falls?
How does Jehovah know the future Kenrch? Is it because he is there?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
God is in heaven, but everywhere as His Spirit.

gen 1
” 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

Ps 139
” 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. “

Acts 17
“24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”

[Admin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2006,22:53)

Hi , Perhaps this subject deserves it's own forum.

Yes.

I have moved it into 'Truth or Tradition' because the word 'Omnipresent' doesn't appear in the bible as far as I know.

If anyone thinks it should be in 'Biblical Doctrine' I would consider it.

[david]

Quote

Yes. I have moved it into 'Truth or Tradition' because the word 'Omnipresent' doesn't appear in the bible as far as I know. If anyone thinks it should be in 'Biblical Doctrine' I would consider it.

I do not think omnipresence is Biblical.

“Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
It seems to me that “the person of God”is in heaven, and that this is His “established PLACE OF DWELLING.”(1 Ki 8:43)
So does the Bible speek of God being everywhere all the time or does it speak of him as having an established place of dwelling? (If unsure, see above again.)
If he dwells everywhere all the time at the same time, then I don't see how the heavens would be His established “place” of dwelling. This scripture indicates that there is a place he dwells, and that place is not everywhere. And if it were everywhere, 1 kings 8 would be wrong.
Does not the Bible say of Him: “no man will see me and yet live”? If he is everywhere, and my eyes are open, then why am I still alive?

Does He dwell everywhere?
ACTS 17:24
“The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples,”

Stephen and the apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus Christ. So Jehovah God must be just as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is. (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9)

The belief that God is everywhere, seems to me to be somewhat like the belief that God is in the trees, in this rock, in the pen on this desk. This belief tends to de-personify Him. But the Bible used the word “person” with reference to Him:
“Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
Why would Christ have to enter into heaven if God is everywhere? hmmm. It's because that's where the “person of God” was and is.

And no t8, the word omnipresent doesn't appear in the Bible.

david

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2006,06:27)

Quote Yes. I have moved it into 'Truth or Tradition' because the word 'Omnipresent' doesn't appear in the bible as far as I know. If anyone thinks it should be in 'Biblical Doctrine' I would consider it. I do not think omnipresence is Biblical. “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” It seems to me that “the person of God”is in heaven, and that this is His “established PLACE OF DWELLING.”(1 Ki 8:43) So does the Bible speek of God being everywhere all the time or does it speak of him as having an established place of dwelling? (If unsure, see above again.) If he dwells everywhere all the time at the same time, then I don't see how the heavens would be His established “place” of dwelling.  This scripture indicates that there is a place he dwells, and that place is not everywhere.  And if it were everywhere, 1 kings 8 would be wrong. Does not the Bible say of Him: “no man will see me and yet live”?  If he is everywhere, and my eyes are open, then why am I still alive? Does He dwell everywhere? ACTS 17:24 “The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples,” Stephen and the apostle John had visions of heaven in which they saw both God and Jesus Christ.  So Jehovah God must be just as much a person, an individual, as Jesus Christ is. (Acts 7:56; Rev. 5:1, 9) The belief that God is everywhere, seems to me to be somewhat like the belief that God is in the trees, in this rock, in the pen on this desk.  This belief tends to de-personify Him.  But the Bible used the word “person” with reference to Him: “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.” Why would Christ have to enter into heaven if God is everywhere?  hmmm.  It's because that's where the “person of God” was and is. And no t8, the word omnipresent doesn't appear in the Bible. david

God's Spirit is everywhere.  God IS Spirit (John 4:24).

There again is the difference between JWs and Christianity (2Tim 3:5).

[david]

Quote

God's Spirit is everywhere. God IS Spirit (John 4:24). There again is the difference between JWs and Christianity (2Tim 3:5).

Yup. God is a spirit. So are the angels. They are spirits too Kenrch. ARe they everywhere?
Please read the scriptures in my post.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2006,03:27)

Quote God's Spirit is everywhere.  God IS Spirit (John 4:24). There again is the difference between JWs and Christianity (2Tim 3:5). Yup.  God is a spirit.  So are the angels.  They are spirits too Kenrch.  ARe they everywhere? Please read the scriptures in my post.

Hi david,
Why should God be comparable to created angels?

God is not made in the image of His creation.

Do they pour out of their spirits onto mankind?

Joel 2
“28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

Isaiah 44:3

3'For (A)I will pour out water on the thirsty land
And streams on the dry ground;
I will (B)pour out My Spirit on your Âoffspring
And My blessing on your descendants;

Ezekiel 39:29

29″I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have (A)poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD.

[david]

HEBREWS 1:7
“Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.””

I will help to simplify this Nick.

1. I gave many scriptures that seem to indicate that God is not omnipresent.
2. Kenrch stated: “God's Spirit is everywhere. God IS Spirit (John 4:24).
There again is the difference between JWs and Christianity (2Tim 3:5). “

3. Whereas I quoted many scriptures, he quoted one which says that God is a spirit to prove that he is omnipresent. But this is not a sound arguement as I showed when I:
4. Stated that angels are also spirits. Are they omipresent? Simply saying God is a spirit does not make him any more omnipresent than saying that angels are spirits. Therefore, that scripture proves nothing by itself. Yet of course Kench used that opportunity to make a jab at JW's despite his ability to reason on this subject. It's sad.
5. Then, we have you Nick. Since you don't seem to understand that Kenrch said 'God is a spirit therefore omnipresent,' and that I said: 'Angels are spirits, so what?' I'm going to ignore you're attempt to sidetrack this conversation.
Logic tells us that if simply saying: “God is a spirit” and therefore omnipresent, that I could just as easily say the angels are spirits, therefore omnipresent. Done. You are confusing the spirit he pours out with the fact that he “is a spirit.” God's holy spirit is something he has. But he is a spirit. You're confusing the two. Sorry.

david

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Let me try to follow your logic.
God is a spirit. Angels are spirits.
Angels are not omnipresent.
God cannot be everywhere.

Have I got it?

What comparison is there between the human wisdom of logic, and God's wisdom, scripture?

Demons are spirits too and they are not able to be everywhere either.
Does this add weight to your simplistic logic that tries to define God according to His creation??

[david]

Quote

Let me try to follow your logic. God is a spirit. Angels are spirits. Angels are not omnipresent. God cannot be everywhere. Have I got it?

ARe you kidding me?

I can't say this any more simply. It's not what I said, it's what kenrch said. His arguement Nick, is that God is omnipresent because he is a spirit. He said “God is a spirit.” He's omnipresent. That was his arguement Nick. Do you understand that? You can look above to see what he said. Now that we've established what he said and I'm not certain we all understand what he said, let's look at what I said.
“angels are also spirits.”
So, if simply being a spirit makes one omnipresent, then based on that logic, angels are omnipresent. You can call God omnipresent if you want, but you can't say he is omnipresent based on the fact that he is a spirit.

Quote

What comparison is there between the human wisdom of logic, and God's wisdom, scripture?

I'm sorry Nick. Which scripture was it that said God is omnipresent? “God is a spirit.” is the scripture we were discussing. I was attempting to point out, (in vain) that that scripture doesn't say God is omnipresent. You are the one who has told me not to go beyond what is written. He quoted a scripture which said one thing and then altered it to mean something else, that wasn't necessarily true and you are defending his thinking, apparently. Nick, you're no longer allowed to accuse me of doing the same. To do so would be hypocritical.

Quote

Does this add weight to your simplistic logic that tries to define God according to His creation??

Why is your definition better than mine? At least mine has a bunch of scriptures behind it. Yours has rantings about human logic.

dave

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
I have never said God is omnipresent as such human theological words can never encompass our amazing God whose home is heaven. But God is not limited as we or angels are to having influence and awareness only in one area of life. We know He blew His breath into our dust to give us life and yet that spirit does not belong to us but to Him and returns to him at death.

Jb 34
” 13Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?

14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust”

God surely knows our hearts by the breath he has loaned us.

Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Acts 17

“24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: “

Gen 1.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Was God in heaven while His Spirit moved over the waters.
Yes.
God does amazing things by His Spirit.

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2006,03:27)

Quote God's Spirit is everywhere.  God IS Spirit (John 4:24). There again is the difference between JWs and Christianity (2Tim 3:5). Yup.  God is a spirit.  So are the angels.  They are spirits too Kenrch.  ARe they everywhere? Please read the scriptures in my post.

David,

Explain this scripture:

Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Do we have to wait in line for Jesus to be in our midst?

1Co 15:28  And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

Please explain after Jesus turns over everything to the Father how is the Father going to be IN ALL?

That means that on the new earth I may be over in one continent and Nick in an other but God will be in both of us.

Blows your mind doesn't it?  

1Co 2:14  Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

2Co 6:16  And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said,  “I will dwell in them”,   “and walk in them;” and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

How is God going to dwell in them (plural)?

Heb 8:11  And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: “For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them”.

Here again is the difference between the JWs and Christianity.

[Author]

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