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I have looked up the word Omniscience, all knowing and foreknowledge in my Bible concordance and have yet to find a scripture that says that God is all knowing. Can anyone shed some light on this subject.
1 Corinthians 2:9-11 (New International Version)
9 However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”[a]–10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Does God gain undestanding of the goings on of Mankind through his all knowing nature or does he gather information about us through his, messengers, angels, the HS and by what he knows about our personality etc?
Does he know all things, every single detail of every single second or does he know his ultimate plan for mankind and work it out accordingly like a master strategian from information gathered.
I am interested to see what people have to say on this subject.
HiA,
All the Omni-words are the foolish tools of the theologians who vainly try to define God according to their natural minds. These words, in some strange way, also attempt to say there is a limit to the abilities of God because there is no more power than total power etc.Because we cannot ever fully grasp the abilities of God we are wiser to avoid these words, which are not in the bible, and we should find what we can about God from what he has revealed about Himself. Many have fallen into the trap of believing the Father is the Son because they find scriptures that seem to say both are Omnipotent or Omniscient and so they conclude they must be the same. That is foolish circular logic..
Yeshua knew the thoughts of his opponents through the work of the Holy Spirit. As Paul told the Athenians God is close to all of us and this is the work of his Spirit. Nothing is hidden from Him. God's Spirit pervades all His creation.
Likewise Peter and the apostles were able to discern the thoughts of men by the same Spirit as with Simon the Magician. Somehow our minds are freely accessible to the Spirit of God [Gen 6.5,Ps 94.11,Jb 21.27Is 66.18,Mt 9.4,Mt 12,25,Lk 11.17,Heb 4.12etc]
The activities of men are also observed and recorded by angels in books which will be opened at the judgement.I may be wrong but I believe they are the 'Eyes of the Lord' mentioned in scripture.[Heb 12.1]Those interested in Enoch will find the Watchers mentioned there.
A good question and one IMPOSSIBLE to answer with any certainty. Here are some thoughts (this question has been pondered quite often):
Either knowledge is static or dynamic. This means that either the knowlewdge base is finite or ever-expanding (growing).
If knowledge is finite, let us assume that God is the sum of all this knowledge. Now, if there are other eternal creatures and they are ever-learning, then, eventually, they will also be the sum of all this knowledge and will, therefore, be equal to God. All of us who inherit eternal life will ultimately become God. If God cannot grow (in knowledge), He cannot remain supreme. Eventually, others will catch up with God.
If knowledge is expanding (as the universe is suggested to be doing), then God is still learning. He is still the sum of all knowledge, but dynamically so. Since knowledge is ever-increasing, God is getting wiser and no one will ever be able to catch up with His knowledge. God will remain supreme. For eternity, no one will ever catch up with God.
Personally, only the second premise seems feasible to me. This means that every time I do or say something stupid, God gets that much smarter.
What do you think?
Sorry bic but that is vain folly,
Theological mind games based on our puny understanding. Do you not fear God to discuss him in such condescending terms?
We will never be God but in Him if we are in Yeshua. We will never be equal to God. Knowledge does not make one equal with God. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies. God is Love and it is love that is important. It is everlasting but knowledge will pass.
Knowledge is only useful in that it reveals God to us that we might know Him, but God is Love.
God gives all of us free will so, though he knows the final outcome, he gives us the choices on the way to fill in the details as that future approaches.
Quote (bic @ Feb. 21 2005,13:49) A good question and one IMPOSSIBLE to answer with any certainty. Here are some thoughts (this question has been pondered quite often): Either knowledge is static or dynamic. This means that either the knowlewdge base is finite or ever-expanding (growing).
If knowledge is finite, let us assume that God is the sum of all this knowledge. Now, if there are other eternal creatures and they are ever-learning, then, eventually, they will also be the sum of all this knowledge and will, therefore, be equal to God. All of us who inherit eternal life will ultimately become God. If God cannot grow (in knowledge), He cannot remain supreme. Eventually, others will catch up with God.
If knowledge is expanding (as the universe is suggested to be doing), then God is still learning. He is still the sum of all knowledge, but dynamically so. Since knowledge is ever-increasing, God is getting wiser and no one will ever be able to catch up with His knowledge. God will remain supreme. For eternity, no one will ever catch up with God.
Personally, only the second premise seems feasible to me. This means that every time I do or say something stupid, God gets that much smarter.
What do you think?
Hi bic,I think that God is eternal and therefore his knowledge is eternal as he knows all things.
Beings that inherit eternal life will be forever learning about God because he is also eternal in the past which no being with eternal life has.
Take Satan for example. He was defeated by knowledge that predated him, knowledge before the foundation of the world.
1 Corinthians 2:7-9
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”Another thing bic,
I suppose we can wonder about the concept if infinite itself. Does it fully contain all things, or is it just the biggest number expression that continues to get bigger. I would have thought the first one.
For if God only knows all things up to a point and then grows in knowledge, then somehow that suggests that God is limited by time or seasons. But the universe itself cannot contain God, for He exists even outside his own creation. Therefore we really cannot limit God to the things of creation (even time), for these were created by him and he is supremely greater than all he has made.
Also I think that God is not limited by any dimension because he created them all. But I personally think that God has placed his son at the highest dimension to rule all that is created. For Christ is seated above all creation. But the Father is even beyond that and I think that all God's beings are contained within what he has made.
Therefore I think that no being could catch up. Although I wonder if that was what Satan thought he could do. For one would wonder why would you even try to compete with God? But surely Satan was defeated by knowledge that predated him. Also Satan was contained within creation itself. Who knows what God does outside of creation. For surely creation can be placed in the palm of his hand (so to speak).
I am also glad that God is so much greater than we can imagine. For this ensures that we will forever be amazed and in awe at the Almighty. It's not like we will get bored and know it all after so many trillions of years. Far from it. Listen to the follwong description from the throne of God:
Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”I use to think that these poor beings served God in a postrate state and how boring that would be. I now realise that God is so awesome that they are being completely blown away by his glory and presence to the point that they continually worship him as an expression of the state of joy that they are experiencing. What a priviledge for these beings are at the source of the river of life and right before the throne. What glory they must behold for they are in the place where the Lamb is seated and the glory of God is emanating from God into creation through his son.
Hi bic,
The simple truth is that God exists and He rewards those who seek him. Knowledge about God is good but the seeking of that knowledge for it's own sake can be a trap. Too much knowledge is like too much honey.
Prov 24.13
'My son eat honey for it is good. Yes the honey from the comb is sweet to the taste.”
but
Prov 25 16
” Have you found honey? Eat only what you need that you not have it in excess and vomit it”Trust is more valuable.
Prov 4.5f” Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes . Fear the Lord and turn away from evil”
Micah 6 .8
” He has told you O man what is good. And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God”To speculate about what is not revealed is not useful.
thanks all for your thoughts…
Here are a few scriptures that puzzle me, I do not know Greek and Hebrew so I am not claiming I understand, just genuine in my pursuit for knowlege of the One who made me and if anyone has insight on the verses below then I would love to hear:
Genesis 6:5-6 – God repented or grieved that he had made man. This statement does not imply and all knowing power behind it. Why repent or grief if you already know what is to happen, the course of mankind would be a logical step if God knew it would happen, so why the strong use of the word here.
5162 nacham naw-kham' a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexive {without volition or conscious control – added from dictionary cause I did not know what the word meant}) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):–comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
If i made something that did not work well but knew that it would falter in some point along the way, I would not be disappointed, I would just keep trying and tweaking it till it worked. However if I knew something should work, made it perfect but it still failed then I would have room to be disappointed.
In some translations the word says God regretted that he had made man… we regret from hindsight do we not.
If He knew all things then why would He be sorry he had made it for surely its failure would be part of the course of things.
Genesis 11:5-7 – The LORD came down to see the city and tower. Why did he have to come down to see it if he knows and sees all things?
Genesis 18:20-21 – The wording here implies that he came down to check out if the report that had reached his ears was as bad as it had been given. That implies that God did not know and had to check out the cry that had come before him. Strange scriptur if it does not mean what it says. Can anyone shed light on it.
Genesis 22:12 – God says, NOW I know that you fear God… if God knew beforehand what Abraham was going to do then why this statement. It does not make logical sense.
6258 `attah at-taw' from 6256; at this time, whether adverb, conjunction or expletive:–henceforth, now, straightway, this time, whereas. see HEBREW for 06256
Jeremiah 17:10 – Here we see God tests us, our hearts and minds and gives us according to our ways and what we do.
Jeremiah 19:5 – here is a statement that God said something did not come into his mind. (Surely an all knowing God could not say such words)
Deut 32:2 0 Lead them for forty years to test them to KNOW what was in their heart, WHETHER you would keep His commandments or not. (This does not sound to me like an all knowing statement, more a searching and questioning one) why test if you already know? You test something to find out something of that thing being tested.
What about Zech 1:7-11 – This is another of those Scriptures Nick that could aid your view about the eyes of the Lord going to and fro across the earth?
And also Zech 6:1-8 is interesting.
Logically how do you explain what is being said here. To me it is fairly clear that God searches the hearts of man to know what is in the heart.
He has access to us cause he knows us and formed our innermost being but I cannot see any where in scripture that says God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents (mankind, angels etc) from the begining of time to the future.
Job 12:22 says He DISCOVERS deep things out of darkness, and brings out to light the shadow of death.
His plan for mankind and his Eternal purpose will come about, what he has prophesied and promised will happen this i do not doubt. But I am not convinced that he knows all things about everything.
I appreciate some light shed on this matter..
Thank you all for your kind responses (and the mild chiding). If you re-read my post, you will see that I agree that no one will ever approach God's wisdom and/or power. He will remain the Supreme Being forever and ever.
I also agree that God lives outside the realm of time and space and can, therefore, declare the end before the beginning.
There is no doubt (in my mind) that God existed before the heavens and the earth. What I wonder, however, is that when God creates something for the very first time, does He learn something new? I have a hard time thinking that God is NOT ever-learning.
Man's wisdom cannot be counted on. It is led by Satan's suggestions and deceptions. Although I majored in Chemistry and love science, I cannot rely on it. All I have to go by is God's word. All that I believe is shaped and molded by God's word and His Word and His Spirit.
In reading the account of Noah's flood, we read in Genesis:
Genesis:6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.Now it may just be me but the first verse seems to suggest that God did not foreknow the outcome of fleshy man left alone without His divine guidance and the second verse only seems to confirm that. Why would God be grieved and why would He be sorry that He had “made man on the earth” if He had known all along the results? In what realm or capacity could 'freewill' exist if the results were already preordained?
Would God encourage mankind to “choose life” if we really didn't have a choice?
Any help or wisdom or thoughts on these questions will be greatly appreciated.
Nick Hassan said:
Quote Do you not fear God to discuss him in such condescending terms? I fear God IMMENSELY, as in RESPECT. I don't fear God at all, as in afraid to question Him about things I do not understand.
Nevertheless, I really don't think I was being condescending towards God…that would indeed be folly.
Thanks, t8, for those verses and your insight.
Nick Hassan quoted:
Quote Prov 4.5f” Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes . Fear the Lord and turn away from evil” Micah 6 .8
” He has told you O man what is good. And what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God”Great verses, NH, especially Micah. I might add these:
Deut:10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Ecc:12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Luke:12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.Wisdom, indeed, is a two-edged sword. Sometimes it might just be better to not know.
Quote (bic @ Feb. 22 2005,00:42) There is no doubt (in my mind) that God existed before the heavens and the earth. What I wonder, however, is that when God creates something for the very first time, does He learn something new? I have a hard time thinking that God is NOT ever-learning.
Hi bic,I would think that God knows everything for nothing is beyond him. He is light and light shines through all darkness and ignorance. However that said, I would also say that God gives people free will and that is something not only different from creation itself, but also very unique in creation.
For creation is really a kind of dwelling place and that place is for God's created beings. Creation can be predictable as it is run like a machine that will wear out, even though God intervenes at times. But for God's offspring, He gave free will.
Free will is unusual in that it is God giving control over one's destiny from God to a being. It is the supreme God giving up control and giving that control to oneself in the hope that such a being will exercise his free will to choose God anyway.
This is so, because love can only exist when we have a choice to love. If not, then it is nothing but a program or system which love is supremely greater than.
Imagine this: God gives his Spirit so that we can live. We are then detached from God and start a life that is a process of learning about God. When we decide to live for God, he gives his Spirit without measure and we are connected to him. God then delights to see what we see just as a parent does with a child. God can also see how we perceive God. So God gets to see all those different views even of himself through creation. It is no wonder then that the wicked shall not inherit eternal life for they are a burden to all that is right.
Think for a minute about your wife, husband, girlfriend or partner. If you brainwashed them to love you, would you have much pleasure in them saying that they love you? But if they said it of their own will, that would be pleasing would it not? And who among men can predict all that a man does in life?
Free will ultimately gives a being the ability to choose any path that God has created or allowed. This makes us absolutely responsible for our own lives and we will not have the excuse of saying it was your fault God. You made me like this. Or I was predestined to do this. God truly gave us free will, therefore we are free to choose and responsible for our choices.
God has a destiny for each and everyone of us, but it is still up to us to choose that. God allows 2 paths, the narrow and the wide one. We choose which one to travel down.
So does God know our choices? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps God has the power to give free will and in doing so he willingly gives up knowledge of that person's choices. For as limiting as this may seem, God is able to do beyond what we can imagine. We often hear of God saying that he will forget our sins. What this really means I am not sure. But I am only aware of the outcome. i.e. that he treats us as if we never sinned when we are in Christ.
I am surely too limited to know such things about God, but I can understand when he reveals things about himself for I am made in his image. He created mankind as capable beings in which he can share a relationship with, so we are gifted. I also know that God reveals himself in scripture and we can know about God if we have his Spirit in us. His Spirit leads us into all truth.
So I am of the attitude that it is good to question and be curious. That is if our motives is to know more about God, rather than knowledge for knowledge sake, which is vanity as Nick correctly points out.
I suppose that a being who loves God will always seek the truth and I see that as good. For surely if we didn't love God, then we wouldn't be asking questions about him.
So I see 2 things. Created things and the concepts that govern what God created. Free will is interesting and it appears that God doesn't know our choices at times from scripture. Of course we can all have a good guess at what someone may choose given their character. So how much power or knowledge does God have about our choices? I am not sure, but he does appear to be disappointed with us at times as he expects better, and other times there seems to be a surprise.
Remember when Ninevah repented. Who expected that? Did God know? When God asked Abraham to kill his son, did God know that he would do as He asked? If so, then why did God do it if he knew the outcome? Perhaps as a witness to all creation. Did God know that Adam would sin against him? If yes, then why didn't he create another?
We can only speculate for who knows the mind of God? God does and he reveals his mind to us (what he choose to reveal) through his Spirit and his Son.
bic,
My mistake. I understand now where you came from. Sorry.
God had problems among his angels too so they have free will too, but God will not forgive them. Those who sinned have an inescapable eternal destiny. God only controls those who give him that control and surrender to His Spirit. The rest always have personal choice. Those that are still in the kingdom of darkness can only alter course if they see the light and walk towards it.Knowledge is not wisdom. God's wisdom is vindicated by it's children and not that much helped by knowledge, rather by faith. Knowledge without wisdom is still useless. Ignorant sinners and coarse fishermen became God's choice as containers of wisdom.
Wisdom is a gift of the Spirit to be sought in prayer .The work is the Spirit's using the knowledge of and remembrance of and understanding of the Word.
It is always best to seek more. Even Paul was not absolutely sure of the adequacy of his service.
Jesus said in Mt 25.29″to everyone who has more shall be given and he will have an abundance;but from the the one who does not have , even what he does have will be taken away”.
Thank you both and God bless.
t8 said:
Quote We can only speculate for who knows the mind of God? Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Nick Hassan said:
Quote Knowledge is not wisdom. Thanks for pointing that out.
To Artizan007,
Quote (Artizan007 @ Feb. 22 2005,00:04) In some translations the word says God regretted that he had made man… we regret from hindsight do we not. If He knew all things then why would He be sorry he had made it for surely its failure would be part of the course of things.
I heard a scientist say something like this once:“With great difficulty we try and sometimes succeed in predicting the processes and fate of the universe. Yet as hard as finding such information is, it is still harder trying to predict what my 14 year old son is going to do.”
Who knows the mystery of free will. Is it free because the will is free from God?
Sometimes I wonder if it is free will that makes us a unique identity from God as opposed to being a part of God or an extention of God.
One thing that I have come to believe is that this idea that for God to be omniscient, He would have to “know the future” is based on a rather misguided notion.
The future does not exist right now. So it would be incorrect to say that God would not be omniscient if he doesn't know about something that does not exist and is a non-reality. The notion of omniscience is based on knowing all that exists. The future is not an existential thing out there somewhere but a way of describing a reality that does not yet exist. Tomorrow does not exist yet so if anyone does not know something about it it does not mean their knowledge is limited because knowledge is based on knowing what exists, not knowing what does not exist. Tommorrow does not exist and what does not exist is nothing. Omniscience is not based on knowing everything about nothing.
Now God can tell you what he will do in the future because he has the power to make something happen in the future. I can also say that tomorrow I will get out of bed. So when it happens did I “know the future?” Did I predict the future? No. I made a conceived event into a reality. Now my plans can be thwarted. However, God's plans cannot be thwarted due to his power. So if God says he will do something in the future or make something happen tomorrow, it does not mean he “knew the future” in the sense of knowing about another reality that was out there somewhere but that he made a reality occur when the future became the present. Even we humans do this all the time. It does not amount to “knowing the future” or prophesying our own future but amounts to creating a present reality by plan. In the same sense, a prophecy is simply knowledge of what God plans to do and will make to exist, not an insight into an existent reality that can be seen out there somewhere as if it were another realm.
The problem stems from speaking of “the future” and “tomorrow” as if they are present realities that are out there somewhere. They aren't realities because tomorrow does not exist right now. But the fact that people say things like “the future” suggestively makes them think it is a realm of reality out there when it is not. Tomorrow is not a reality today and does not exist today and tommorrow will never truly exist because when tomorrow gets here it will be not be tomorrow but today. “the future” and “tommorrow” are simply ways of describing a yet non-existent reality that we expect to become a present reality. In other words it is something that does NOT exist that we either hope or expect will exist. So to not know what that reality will be is simply to not know something that does not exist and to not know something about nothing. Omniscience does not required knowledge of something about nothing because nothing is not a something to be known in the first place.
Does omniscience require knowledge of all that does not exist? I don't think so. The word means knowledge of all that does exist. Since all that does not exist is what we call “nothing” why would we require that God know everything about nothing in order to know absolutely everything? It is absurd. There is nothing to know about nothing, nothing to know about that which does not exist.
So to speak of “tomorrow” and “the future” as realities that are existing leads people to the misguided notion that these are current realities that God would know about. But they are not. They are non-existent realities and there is nothing to know about a non-existent reality, nothing to know about nothing.
Hi BE,
The bible does not say God is omniscient.So then for us to say God is omniscient, or knows everything, we too would have to know what there is to be known. We would have to be able to circumscribe knowledge ourselves to be able to say God knows it all.
At best we can know in part and that knowledge is transient.
1Cor 13.8
“….;if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we know in partand we prophesy in part;but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with..”Otherwise it would be pure speculation would it not?
Interesting posts guys.
I suppose that we who undertand 3 dimensions quite well my be surprised to see how things fit together when or if we get the opportuity to see from a higher dimension. Maybe time is contained in a higher dimension and therefore can be viewed all at once from there. (A thousand years as one day so to speak.) Who knows?
I personally think that the visions in the Book of Enoch are interesting in that they describe known scientific facts from todays understanding, but they were given instead by Revelation. There are descriptions of the polar regions and how the earth looks like a globe and hangs on what appears to be nothing. But the most interesting of all (I think) is that Enoch sees a perfectly logical 3 dimensional space, but interwoven in that he sees other stuff like portals for the 4 winds and the portal to Hades etc.
Our bodies are truly limited and even stop us from seeing many wavelengths like ultraviolet, infared, xrays etc. Likewise our hearing is also limited but we know that there is so much more out there than our bodies are telling us. We use technology to see the unseen. But our bodies rather than enabling us, maybe limit us. Perhaps in spirit form we can see all things, even Christ seated on the throne, just as Stephen saw.
Even in recent times telescopes have shown us billions of galaxies where each contains billions of suns. And now they are discovering planets. All these things we cannot see using our bodies alone.
So trying to understand what God knows can only be pure speculation as surely we can only know the things of God, by revelation of his Spirit. But speculation is not a bad thing either. Often speculation is the way we seek things, and God delights in revealing things to those that love him.
Hi david,
You asked about an omnipresent forum. No, no forum.Only this one with another “Omni” one- theologians favourite words.Is He omniscent?
He knows the number of hair on my head – that is way beyond me!
It says in Isaiah somewhere something like this
My ways are higher than yours, my thoughts than yours, who are you oh man to compare me and my ways to you and your ways, as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your my thoghts higher also..
or words to that affect.I remember posting a topic over year ago, but I can't find it. It must be the mischief of t8/heaven/Nick! ( Joke
)Anyway, before I posted it I went to a class on predestination/omniscience/insert-another-theology-word-here. It really opned up my eyes and I enjoyed it. Not only that, but it sticks to scripture–not theology.
Note: I'm not trying to spam. I really went to the class, and really enjoyed it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2006,06:46) Hi david,
You asked about an omnipresent forum. No, no forum.Only this one with another “Omni” one- theologians favourite words.
omniscient – knowing all things – only wise
What was the question? does God know all things or can something creep up on him? can he make a bad move and regret it?
can he form things from nothing? can he fulfill His own words?Does he cover all time and space? before He formed us did He know us? Did He write a book before the foundation of the world and put names in it? Did He send His word forth by prophets and just hope it would happen?
Did he foretell Jesus life before it happened, including his manner of death, and countless details of his time on earth? Is He the master of coincidence or just a brilliant guesser?…
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