old and new

[NickHassan]

Maybe DAVID ?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2004,04:23)

Maybe DAVID ?

Nick: I don't want to be seen as a shouter, so I will create something else.

Many Thanks

[shakai7]

Hello Nick,
I think that the seed of Abraham is physical. That the covenants were made with them. But true gentiles receive equal blessings through their acceptance of Yahshua as Messiah, and true physical Israelites, who do not accept Yahshua as Messiah are still under the curse of the law and without Yahshua they are without hope. Many who are physical Israel, both Judah and Ephraim, will not accept Yahshua and therefore remain without reconciliation.
 
My interpretation:
 Hagar represents the Religious Jews who rejected the redemption from the curse of the law, offered through Messiah.

 Jerusalem from above represents those who have been set free from the curse of the law. Jews, Ephraim and true gentiles who have received redemption through Messiah.
 As he said, this can be taken figuratively.

 Gal.4:26 “But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
              for it is written;
              Be glad o barren woman, who bares no children,
              break forth and cry aloud,
              you who have no labor pains,
              because more are the children of the desolate woman
              than who has a husband.

 This comes from Isaiah 54. Read the whole chapter, here it speaks of Judah and Ephraim..
The woman who has a husband is the house of Judah. The barren woman is Ephraim Israel who was the divorced wife of Elohim, who was scattered among the nations. Elohim is now going forgive her, by the blood of Messiah, bring her back and take her for His bride. She was barren and desolate, no children. But when she is redeemed by her Husband, she finds that her children are coming to her from the east and west and south and north. That she has so many children they will cry for more space to live.(Is.49:20)

 Isaiah chapters 49, 54, 60, 62. All these talk about this.

 On the gentile issue; It is my understanding that any true gentile, can receive the same blessings as Israel when they come to Messiah through the covenant Yahweh has made with Israel. The world will be blessed by Abraham's seed, by both his physical decendants and the one seed, Messiah.

 S7

[NickHassan]

Hi s7,
Look at the parable of the prodigal son[Lk 15].The older son said to his Father. “For years now I have slaved for you. I never disobeyed one of your orders yet you never gave me as much as a kid goat to celebrate with my friends.then when this son of yours returns after having gone through your property with loose women, you kill the fatted calf for him.
'My son' replied the father you are with me always ,and everything I have is yours..”
Is this not the faithful Jew, perfect in his observance of the old Law and inheriting the kingdom as Jesus said to the rich young man who asked what he must do to inherit the kingdom?
Though he hates his younger brother and is filled with jealousy at the apparent 'spoiling' he gets despite his bad wasteful behaviour I guess he does still accept him as a brother.
What are your thoughts?

[shakai7]

Hello Nick,

 You might be getting sick of this, but I see Judah as the son who has remained with his father and Ephraim who has taken his inheritance. Ephraim, who is the younger, went out to foreign countries, gave up everything that he had received from his Father. There was a famine in the country where he had hired himself out to feed pigs. He was living as a gentile. But because of hunger he decided that he was better off in his Father's house, even as a servant. In Ephraim's case this was spiritual famine, he, living among gentile pagans. He went home and begged for forgiveness. His Father welcomed him but his brother was jealous for the reception he received. His Father told him, you are always with me and everything I have is yours, but this brother of yours was dead and now is alive again, he was lost and is found.
 My friend who was attending a Messianic Jewish congregation a few years ago, addressed the Jewish leaders of that congregation. He is not a Jew, but when he told them that he believed he was from Ephraim, they rejected him saying , NO, you can not be.
 When told he me about that, this parable of the prodigal son came to my mind. Messianic Judaism rejects those who feel that they are from the other house of Israel.

 I think this parable also represents the individual lost sheep returning to Abba.

S7

[NickHassan]

Hi s7,
I thought that would be your reply.
Ten out of the twelve tribes disappeared into oblivion and is no longer visible yet must exist. As you say God hid them.
It seems likely that they would have gravitated back towards Israel when they got free from their oppressors. But knowing the pride and independant spirit manifested through history I cannot understand how they could have lost their sense of identity as the people of God.
Some, at least, would have held fast to their origins and the promises which were so precious to them?

[shakai7]

Hello Nick,
 I thought that was what you thought I would say. Yes some did return after time, I think maybe some of the Samaritans, in Yahshua's time were decended from Ephraim. Samaria was the capitol of the northern tribes.
 The Jews had low opinion of the Samartians in the time of Yahshua. When Yahshua went to Samaria and talked to the woman at the well, she claimed that, our father Jacob gave them the well. She, a Samaritan claimed ancestry to Jacob. Yahshua did not correct her. She recognized that Yahshua was a prophet, and she knew that the Messiah is coming and will explain everything.

 Read John 4 with this in mind.

 I believe this woman and the others who came to be taught were those who's decendants returned to Samaria from their Assyrian captivity. But most of Israel was assimilated into the gentile population.
That is what Elohim said would happen, throughout the OT, until He would gather them back.

 Most of the Jews who were taken into Babylon did no return to Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity. Millions were taken captive into Babylon but just over 69,000 returned.
Nehemaiah 7:6-73

 They did not go into oblivion, they were scattered, by the plan of Yahweh, he knew where they were, and His plan was for their return.

 You say, you can not see how they lost their identity as people of Elohim.

 That was their characteristic, it was what Ephraim had done to be cursed into the nations seperated from Yahweh to start with.
 Jereboam, in time, rejected what Yahweh had offered him and set up his own religious system. They began to incorporate pagan practices into this substitute system. That was the character
of Ephraim, rejection of Yahweh's covenant and replacing it with pagan substitutes. Just what they were doing when Yahshua came, and what the church is doing now. A leoperd can't change it's spots. Once a pig is cleaned, it returns to wallowing in the mud.

S7

[NickHassan]

Hi s7,
Jn 4.9 “for jews have no dealings with Samaritans”
Mt 10.5″ Do not enter any city of the Samaritans”

The Samaritans seem to have had a special role in the New Testament. They were rebels against the OT authorities.Yet Jesus used them as examples in his parables to humble the Jews who felt superior to them. They were preached to by Philip and the disciples [Acts 8]and they
“Attended closely to what Philip had to say”
They were more hungry and they knew they needed God's love again.
What of the Pharisees and Sadducees-were they tribal based or not? Paul knew he was of the tribe of Benjamin [as well as a Pharisee]so some must have come back and known their origins?

[shakai7]

Hi Nick,
 Sadducees and Pharisees I've never thought much about them.  I do not think they were tribal based, they were of post Babylon corruption. I have heard that they were pawns of the Roman government. I do not really know from where they got their authority. This is speculation but I think maybe they were self-appointed experts of the law. I guess that is an area I need to look into.
 Zedekaiah was the last king of Judah, and his sons were killed before him. Harod was not decended from the royal family.
 
 When the tribe of Benjamin had gone to war against Israel they lost their right to their land, and  lived among the other tribes. Judges 20.  describes the war between Israel and Benjamin.

 2nd Chron. 11. Ephraim Israel is rebelling against Judah, here the Levites and Benjamin join with  Reheboam king of Judah, against Jereboam, king of Israel and the tribes loyal to him. From this time throughout the rest of OT history, the house of Judah consisted of the tribes of Judah, Levi, who were the temple priest, and at least part of  if not most of Benjamin.
 

 I also see that the Samaritans did have a special place in the NT, I think because they did recognize their ancestry as sons of Jacob, but they were not accepted by Juduism.

 S7

[NickHassan]

Hi s7,
Jesus told the Jews to obey the Pharisees as they sat in the chair [authority]of Moses, but not to imitate them. So Jesus confirmed that in his time they did have authority in relation to the Law.
No matter if the missing 10 tribes cannot be seen now they are represented several times in Revelation
BTW did you know thw bible says a large proportion of the tribe of Benjamin were left handed?

[shakai7]

Hi,Nick,

Yes that is true about the Pharisees, I think they were the teachers of the law, they interpreted the law, of their own mind, not by the Spirit. Yahshua said to do what they say but not what they do. Their interpretation was in fear that Israel would be punished again for covenant breaking, so they added many hard regulations to Elohim's law through their interpretation. Also they wanted control over the general population.
 That is true, they held a true position, they just were not led by Elohim.

S7

[NickHassan]

Hi s7,
The conversation with the woman at the well is one of the most amazing pieces of scripture.
It speaks of life and death reminding us of the description of death in Eccles 12.5 as loss of access to daily water unless we grasp the living water of the Spirit that is given in Jesus.

It shows the work of the Holy Spirit in Jesus revealing what the woman thought was secret.It shows the true response to revealed truth as faith in action. It shows the openness of the Samaritans compared with the Pharisees.

It tells us that God can be worshipped anywhere, anytime now and not just in a certain place at a certain time.Jesus was only passing through the area but stayed as he found good soil.

[shakai7]

Hello Nick,

 All true.  Some Pharisees did believe in Yahshua but many did not. They fulfilled what had to be done in order for us to be redeemed. The Samaritans also did what prophecy said about them.

 Yahshua was just passing through, staying as he found good soil, and leaving when it became
shallow and rocky.
  John 11:54 “Therefore Yahshua no longer moved publicly about the Jews. Instead He withdrew to a region near the desert, to a village called Ephraim, where He stayed with His disiples.”

 Perhaps a picture of Judah's rejection and Ephraim's acceptance.

 S7

[shakai7]

Nick,
I forgot to mention that I did not know that fact about the tribe of Benjamin being disproportionally left handed. I wonder if their may be significance to that?

[NickHassan]

hi S7,
I guess in scripture the Right hand is the hand of authority and power and the Left hand usually supports the right. Jesus stands at the right hand of the Father as the first in authority and power under God.
Woman usually is seen as the support of man in scripture but women have been leaders too.
Perhaps God is showing that while He always have a best plan He always can do things in other ways too?

[NickHassan]

Hi Michael,
As you say the Sabbath is part of the OT LAW.
This Law was IN FORCE until the time of John the baptist.[Lk 16.16]
The Law does not disappear.
It remains in force for the Jews who do not enter the Gate to life.
It is not in force over anyone under the new covenant.
They are under the Law of Christ which does not include the Sabbath Law.They are led by the Spirit.
Coll 2.16,Gal 5.23, Rom 3.21 Rom 6.15 Rom 8.2

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 14 2005,19:58)

Hi Michael, As you say the Sabbath is part of the OT LAW. This Law was IN FORCE until the time of John the baptist.[Lk 16.16] The Law does not disappear. It remains in force for the Jews who do not enter the Gate to life. It is not in force over anyone under the new covenant. They are under the Law of Christ which does not include the Sabbath Law.They are led by the Spirit. Coll 2.16,Gal 5.23, Rom 3.21  Rom 6.15 Rom 8.2

Paul said keeping the commandments is what counts. Yes, the commandments of God were part of the old covenant, but NO, they were not done away with. It is the Livitical law and priesthood that was done away with. By the way, did you know that Joshua also copied Moses laws on to stone tablets. Gods commandments were written by Gods own hand on stone . A SPIRIT OF DISCERNMENT!

[K2marsh]

Hi everyone,

WE ARE TO KEEP THE LAW, BUT WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED
TO BE UNDER THE LAW

Ephesians 2 was written by Paul. If the Ten Commandments Law was abolished why would Paul say “God forbid: yea, we establish the law“.

Romans 3: 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Don’t you think it strange that no one told Paul that the law was done away?

Jesus is our sacrifice for sin, but the Law is not abolished.
The Ten Commandments Given to Moses by God.
Nothing has changed. They were all brought over in the New Testament.
Tell me which of the laws below do you think makes you justified by the law if you keep them and don't murder your neighbor, or lie to your neighbor? The laws are all in the Ten Commandments.
Yes we keep the law.
**
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
**
Under the law of Christ. You are to turn the other cheek and show mercy. Mercy stops action reaction. If you do not turn the other cheek you do not love your neighbor. We are to return good for evil. The difference in the law of Moses and the Law of Christ is MERCY!!!
As God is merciful we are to be merciful. This is the mercy of the New Covenant. The mercy you give is the mercy you receive. Jesus is our example that we are to follow, and take up our cross daily and follow him. When you give mercy you are not under the law. That is because you love your neighbor as yourself.
*
Matthew 5: 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
**
Sin is anything that hurts you or your neighbor in any way. A harsh word. Hurting your neighbor, or what you eat.
If you think you are not under the law stand up!!!
*** 
Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

GalatiaJesus fulfilled the law.
ns 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 24:44
Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

Now we are to fulfill the law
Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

The Law of Moses
Through lack of understanding of the law your forefathers decided that we are not under the law. Through tradition this has been taught generation after generation.
If you hurt your neighbor you are under the law, and they will seek justice.

Jesus said:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he
shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Law and Mercy

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
What commandments? The Ten Commandments given to Moses by God.
Just what law are they under then if not the law of Moses? Christians are to keep all of the Ten Commandments. There is no other law. The law is written in the cosmos. Including the Sabbath day of rest. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The seventh day of rest was from the foundation of the world when God rested on the seventh day.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
—
The law brings wrath. When you hit some one you expect to get hit back. The Gentiles learned through experience, and kept the law even though they were not under the law.

The law is good…Not made for a righteous man

1 Timothy 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,for unholy a profane, for murderers of  fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is
contrary to sound doctrine;
If you sin and do evil you are under the law. If you lie you will be judged for your lie. As you do is as you will receive. For good or evil. An eye for an eye.
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:16-25 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

This is amazing. When you meditate in the Spirit all the lusts are gone. If you are led of the Spirit you can return good for evil. Then you can turn the other cheek, and not oppose evil.

How Not to be Under The Law of Moses, but under the Law of Mercy

Resist not evil – turn the other cheek
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Do good to them that hate you

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
If you hurt your neighbor you are under the law, and they will seek justice. God works through people.
**
Under the law of Christ. You are to turn the other cheek and show mercy. Mercy stops action reaction. If you do not turn the other cheek you do not love your neighbor. We are to return good for evil. The difference in the law of Moses and the Law of Christ is MERCY!!!
As God is merciful we are to be merciful. This is the mercy of the New Covenant. The mercy you give is the mercy you receive. Jesus is our example that we are to follow, and take up our cross daily and follow him. When you give mercy you are not under the law. That is because you love your neighbor as yourself.
*
You are not supposed to be under the Ten Commandments Law of Moses, but you keep the law because you love your neighbor as yourself.  We are not supposed to be under the law, an eye for an
eye and a tooth for a tooth. We are supposed to be under the law of mercy. The mercy you give is the mercy you receive.
That is keeping the law, but not being under the law. You give mercy because you love your neighbor as yourself. Why do you suppose it's called the New Covenant of Mercy? Your mercy that you give as you take up your
cross and follow Jesus. If you do not love your neighbor and offend someone you are under the law and justice will be done. The law was made for the unrightous.

Ephesians 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had  not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
If you break the commandments given by God to Moses you are under the law
 While you are in the flesh you will return evil for evil. Even though you want to do good you will do evil. Read: Romans 7:15

For example when you try saying something nice about a person that has offended you, you return a nasty remark to them. If you are walking in the Spirit you are not under the law.
You keep the law because you love your neighbor as your self. That is you do not lie, steal, etc. from your neighbor. If you are walking in the Spirit and not the flesh, you are not under the law. When the body is dead you can return good for evil. You do not react to action reaction any more. You can turn the other cheek. You are to overcome evil with good.

How to find out if you are under the law. If someone steals from you does that make you mad?
Or do you ask the person that stole from you how you could help him?
If you become mad at the person you do not love your neighbor as yourself. Therefore you are a lawbreaker, and you are under the law of justice. An eye for an eye.

Regards, Karyl

[Admin]

Quote (Guest @ Dec. 29 2004,03:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 28 2004,09:17) I find myself stretched S7 to read Eph 2 as exclusive to Ephraim, in fact it reads the opposite to me-those who have no part in the first covenant. Nick: I would agree. Please note what I said (in my previous post) >> Christians have been promised a heavenly destiny (among the celestials) Eph 2:4-9) >> PS: Someone has grabbed my username (and never posted) My real name is David. Any chance that I can have it

I have made it available to register as it was not being used.
Register it quick.

[NickHassan]

Yes k2M,
Jesus reiterated the OT commandments to the Jews who were following the Old Covenant. But that does not apply to those reborn into Him. In his flesh he abolished the enmity of the Law so that Jew and Gentile may be one-as it says in the scriptures context you quoted…Eph 2 and Rom 3.

[Author]

Posts