Of Christ?

[Ztheberean]

To Be Of Christ

Those who are going to be of Christ shall first be filled (with the word of God) and then brought low (humbled) (Lk 3:5); It is these who are going to be prepared by the ways of the Lord so that they can bring forth the fruits of repentance (Lk 3:4&8); And all of this can only be done by a spirit (whom God sends unto us) to teach us the truth, because God must be worshiped in the truth (Jn 4:23-24).

This prepared way, which is of repentance (Math 3:3&8), IS the narrow way which leads to life, which only “FEW” find (Math 7:14); This is why many believers who call Jesus Lord, and who may do many wonderful works in His name cannot enter into the kingdom, unless they can do the will of God (7:21-22); AND NO ONE CAN DO THE WILL OF GOD WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE DOCTRINE OF GOD (Jn 7:17).

For many are called (to believe) but only few are chosen (to become Christian) (Math 22:14, Rom 9:11); For many believers are seeking to enter into the kingdom, but shall not be able (Lk 13:24); Why is this you ask? BECAUSE THE BROAD WAY (IS BELIEVING YOU CAN BE INSTANTLY BORN AGAIN THROUGH A PRAYER) AND THIS WAY LEADS TO DESTRUCTION (Math 7:13).

These who are in the broad way are ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of this truth (2Tim 3:7); Consequently, this is why God Himself sends us a servant who is patient to instruct us, and through THIS process God grants repentance, so that we could acknowledge the truth, and be recovered from the captivity of the devil’s will. (2Tim 2:24-26)

Believers who cannot obey the words of God are walking in the imaginations of their own evil hearts (Jer 11:8); And this is because they don’t understand that in GOD’S PREPARATION, we are established in His wisdom, His understanding, and by His power (Jer 10:12 & 51:15); Meaning the power of God’s workmanship which creates Christ in us, which is His “GIFT” so that we would not boast (Eph 2:10, 8-9); And this “gifted workmanship” of God needs to be ASKED for (Jn 4:10).

Believers who are in the broad way which is leading them to destruction (Math 7:13), Are those who think that they can bring Christ into their hearts (Rom 10:6-7), And all of this is because they are being taught by the enticing words of man’s wisdom, which has their faith standing in the wisdom of men, NOT IN THE POWER OF GOD (1 Cor 2:4-5, 4:19).

Those who teach the truth, are teaching what the Holy Spirit teaches, which compares spiritual “scripture” with “scripture” from here a little, and from there a little (1 Cor 2:13, Is 28:10); Faith is all about dealing truthfully (Prov 12:22); This is defined as teaching the way of God truly (Lk 20:21); Meaning these are servants of Christ, NOT men pleasers (Gal 1:10).

Because God has put His trust in these, they don’t please men by flattery, (because they don’t hide what needs to be said) nor do they seek glory from men, but God only. (1Thess 2:4-6) These are gentle, and cherish (those that they are ministering to) as a nurse cherishes her children (by giving them what they NEED, not what they want) (2:7).

And they can do all of this because they have been crucified with Christ, so that they are no longer living (for their own selves, in their own will) but Christ is living in them (so that they could live unto God for others) and the life they are now living is by the faith OF Christ (not their own faith) (Gal 2:20) ; And these have learned “HOW” to come from (their) faith to (Christ’s) faith. (Rom 1:18)

Without going through this crucifying process, we are still living for “OUR OWN” selves, rather than Christ living in us, and over us, so that we could live unto God for others, and no longer call ourselves a “sinner” , making Jesus the minister of sin, which GOD has FORBIDDEN Him to be (Gal 2:20 & 17). Those who are seeking to be justified by Christ, (not self-justified) are NOT “sinners” (Gal 2:17).

Sinners THINK that they can “PUT ON” the new man without FIRST “putting off” the old man, and they don’t understand that doing this, causes them to perish (Math 9:17, Lk 5:37) (because they think that they can have 2 natures). Because of God’s mercy, “sinners” need to be called to repentance so that they could LEARN how to not be this sick (Math 9:13-12, Mk 2:17, Lk 5:32).

Are you learning that you must FIRST “mortify” your old nature so that God’s wrath won’t come upon you because of disobedience?? Then you know, and understand that these sins need to be “put off” FIRST: covetousness, idolatry, inordinate affection, anger, malice, and lies, so that you can “put on” because of your election: mercy, humility, longsuffering, forbearance, forgiveness, and love (Col 3:5-14).

And after all of this, we can have the peace of God ruling in our hearts, within gratitude, because the word of God is now richly dwelling within us so that we can teach these things unto others (3:15-16); Because we know nothing about love unless we know that love edifies others in the wisdom and knowledge of God, by writing these things down for others (so that they may meditate and study) (2Cor 8:1, Es 9:30, Eph 4:29, 4:16, 1Thess 5:11, Rom 15:2, 1Tim 1:4)

THIS DOCTRINE CAUSES DIVISIONS AND OFFENCES TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT LEARNED THIS, (OR NOT WILLING TO LEARN) AND THESE ARE TO BE AVOIDED AND MARKED BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SERVING OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST (Rom 16:17-18) Servants of Christ can do the will of God from their hearts, because they are into pleasing God, MORE than pleasing men (Eph 6:6).

In order to have true biblical understanding (which is called the holy;- Prov 9:10); we need the word of God taught unto us with meaning (understanding), Paul said that it IS better to have “FIVE” words of understanding than to speak “ten thousand” words without meaning (1Cor 14:19).

The truth reveals the GRACE of God at work (Col 1:6); and without subjecting ourselves to this teaching of GRACE, God says that we are in ABOMINATION because we are in “our own will be done” (Ez 16:47, cf Ts 2:11-12).

[epistemaniac]

hi there… interesting points…

a few questions….

you say “Believers who are in the broad way which is leading them to destruction (Math 7:13)” and “For many believers are seeking to enter into the kingdom, but shall not be able (Lk 13:24)” etc

so are you sayings a person can be truly saved and still be on the road to hell….?

you say “BECAUSE THE BROAD WAY (IS BELIEVING YOU CAN BE INSTANTLY BORN AGAIN THROUGH A PRAYER) AND THIS WAY LEADS TO DESTRUCTION (Math 7:13). “
While I believe that many do mistakenly think they are saved because they said a prayer at one point in their life, or they walked down an aisle, etc… while their life reflects absolutely no indication of their really having been born from above…. still, it DOES seem to be the case that God COULD save someone this way… that is to say, its probably not wise to put God in a box and say that God cannot save someone this way. God gives the faith necessary to believe, (Eph 2:8-9) thus if someone does come to salvation, its because, and only because God first opened their blinded eyes, regenerated their heart, eg took out their heart of stone and gave them a heart of flesh (Eze 11:19), thus enabling them to believe, not because of any works they had done, not because of any running or willing on their part, but solely because God willed it for His own greater glory, and thus enabling them, for the first time, to obey and walk in God's commands, Eze 11:20 esv “that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.” and Php 2:12-13 esv “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, (13) for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

you say “this is why God Himself sends us a servant who is patient to instruct us, and through THIS process God grants repentance, so that we could acknowledge the truth, and be recovered from the captivity of the devil’s will. (2Tim 2:24-26) “

Did you have any particular servant in mind…?

you say “Believers who cannot obey the words of God are walking in the imaginations of their own evil hearts”

Bu it is actally UNbelievers who “cannot” obey, for they are slaves to sin….

Rom 6:6 esv We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:17 esv But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Rom 8:7-8 esv For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 2:1 esv And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

So its not really accurate to say that believers “cannot” obey, it is they are the only ones who can obey….

you say”For many are called (to believe) but only few are chosen (to become Christian)”
AMEN!!!

you say “Faith is all about dealing truthfully (Prov 12:22)”
Well…. faith is also all about trusting Christ alone for salvation… its about believing God's promises…. sure the devils have a kind of faith, one that does not save, but I guess the point is that there are different types of faith, not just the kind mentioned in Pro 12:22…

lastly, in regard to “Sinners THINK that they can “PUT ON” the new man without FIRST “putting off” the old man….” and ff….

remember sinners are not able to “put off” until they are first saved… they do not possess the ability to do this… as the scriptures show…. dead men and women can't mortify the flesh because they are slaves to it… it takes a work of God in a person's heart to enable them to mortify the flesh… for this pleasing to God…. right? God wants people to stop sinning…. but the Scripture says that those in the flesh cannot please God. They are dead dead dead in their trespasses and sins until and unless God first opens their blinded eyes. Thats the only thing I wanted clarify… many today preach a “pick yourself up by your own bootstrap” gospel…. just do this good work, or say this formulaic prayer and then “bam” (to quote a famous chef ;), you are saved…. but this just decisional regeneration, versus the true regeneration, which comes only from God…

blessings,
Ken

.

[GeneBalthrop]

Ken…….Amen to that post.

peace……….gene

[Ztheberean]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 25 2008,19:38)

hi there… interesting points… a few questions…. you say “Believers who are in the broad way which is leading them to destruction (Math 7:13)” and “For many believers are seeking to enter into the kingdom, but shall not be able (Lk 13:24)” etc so are you sayings a person can be truly saved and still be on the road to hell….? you say “BECAUSE THE BROAD WAY (IS BELIEVING YOU CAN BE INSTANTLY BORN AGAIN THROUGH A PRAYER) AND THIS WAY LEADS TO DESTRUCTION (Math 7:13). “ While I believe that many do mistakenly think they are saved because they said a prayer at one point in their life, or they walked down an aisle, etc… while their life reflects absolutely no indication of their really having been born from above…. still, it DOES seem to be the case that God COULD save someone this way… that is to say, its probably not wise to put God in a box and say that God cannot save someone this way. God gives the faith necessary to believe, (Eph 2:8-9)  thus if someone does come to salvation,  its because, and only because God first opened their blinded eyes, regenerated their heart, eg took out their heart of stone and gave them a heart of flesh (Eze 11:19), thus enabling them to believe, not because of any works they had done, not because of any running or willing on their part, but solely because God willed it for His own greater glory, and thus enabling them, for the first time, to obey and walk in God's commands, Eze 11:20 esv  “that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.” and Php 2:12-13 esv  “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,  (13)  for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” you say “this is why God Himself sends us a servant who is patient to instruct us, and through THIS process God grants repentance, so that we could acknowledge the truth, and be recovered from the captivity of the devil’s will. (2Tim 2:24-26) “ Did you have any particular servant in mind…? you say “Believers who cannot obey the words of God are walking in the imaginations of their own evil hearts” Bu it is actally UNbelievers who “cannot” obey, for they are slaves to sin…. Rom 6:6 esv We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Rom 6:17 esv But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, Rom 8:7-8 esv  For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.  (8)  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Ephesians 2:1 esv  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— So its not really accurate to say that believers “cannot” obey, it is they are the only ones who can obey…. you say”For many are called (to believe) but only few are chosen (to become Christian)” AMEN!!! you say “Faith is all about dealing truthfully (Prov 12:22)” Well…. faith is also all about trusting Christ alone for salvation… its about believing God's promises…. sure the devils have a kind of faith, one that does not save, but I guess the point is that there are different types of faith, not just the kind mentioned in Pro 12:22… lastly, in regard to “Sinners THINK that they can “PUT ON” the new man without FIRST “putting off” the old man….” and ff…. remember sinners are not able to “put off” until they are first saved… they do not possess the ability to do this… as the scriptures show…. dead men and women can't mortify the flesh because they are slaves to it… it takes a work of God in a person's heart to enable them to mortify the flesh… for this pleasing to God…. right? God wants people to stop sinning…. but the Scripture says that those in the flesh cannot please God. They are dead dead dead in their trespasses and sins until and unless God first opens their blinded eyes. Thats the only thing I wanted clarify… many today preach a “pick yourself up by your own bootstrap” gospel…. just do this good work, or say this formulaic prayer and then “bam” (to quote a famous chef ;), you are saved…. but this just decisional regeneration, versus the true regeneration, which comes only from God… blessings, Ken .

Hello there,

You Said:
so are you sayings a person can be truly saved and still be on the road to hell….?

My response:
I am saying that believers who are not yet Christian, meaning saved can go to hell.. scriptural references, for the saints, AND the faithful brethren are here Col 1:1, Eph 1:1[/B]

You said:

Did you have any particular servant in mind…?

My Response:

Yes, those servants who are in the doctrine of Grace which is the only “one” doctrine that saves those who hear Acts 2:46,42, 1 Tim 4:16, Ts 2:10-12, 2Jn 1:9-10

You Said:

So its not really accurate to say that believers “cannot” obey, it is they are the only ones who can obey….

My Response:

Even the demons believe in Jesus, and they tremble, so its not enough to just believe, because Jesus said, we will be known by our FRUIT, not our belief.

You Said:
I guess the point is that there are different types of faith, not just the kind mentioned in Pro 12:22…

My Response:

Yes, only 2 faiths, really just one, because we start in “our own faith” (Rom 1:8), and Christians have the faith of Christ, PROVIDING they have gone through the crucifying process with Christ, so that they are no longer living their life(in their own will) but Christ is living in them (so that they could live unto God for others)(Gal 2:20.) This is why it is said that we need to come from (our) faith to (the) faith (of Christ) so that we can live just by His faith (Rom 1:17, Hab 2:4).

You Said:

remember sinners are not able to “put off” until they are first saved… they do not possess the ability to do this… as the scriptures show…. dead men and women can't mortify the flesh because they are slaves to it… it takes a work of God in a person's heart to enable them to mortify the flesh…

My Response:

We start off as sinners in our own faith however under the instruction of Grace, we learn to ASK God to help us mortify or put off what needs to be put off, so that God would put on the new man because he has been renewed in knowledge to ask for these things, we are Christian when we bome new because God has worked to put the old man and his dead work off. Col 3:5-14

I hope I answered your questions satisfactorily.
Thank you for responding.
Zianna

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Ztheberean @ Oct. 28 2008,11:15)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 25 2008,19:38) hi there… interesting points… a few questions…. you say “Believers who are in the broad way which is leading them to destruction (Math 7:13)” and “For many believers are seeking to enter into the kingdom, but shall not be able (Lk 13:24)” etc so are you sayings a person can be truly saved and still be on the road to hell….? you say “BECAUSE THE BROAD WAY (IS BELIEVING YOU CAN BE INSTANTLY BORN AGAIN THROUGH A PRAYER) AND THIS WAY LEADS TO DESTRUCTION (Math 7:13). “ While I believe that many do mistakenly think they are saved because they said a prayer at one point in their life, or they walked down an aisle, etc… while their life reflects absolutely no indication of their really having been born from above…. still, it DOES seem to be the case that God COULD save someone this way… that is to say, its probably not wise to put God in a box and say that God cannot save someone this way. God gives the faith necessary to believe, (Eph 2:8-9)  thus if someone does come to salvation,  its because, and only because God first opened their blinded eyes, regenerated their heart, eg took out their heart of stone and gave them a heart of flesh (Eze 11:19), thus enabling them to believe, not because of any works they had done, not because of any running or willing on their part, but solely because God willed it for His own greater glory, and thus enabling them, for the first time, to obey and walk in God's commands, Eze 11:20 esv  “that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.” and Php 2:12-13 esv  “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,  (13)  for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” you say “this is why God Himself sends us a servant who is patient to instruct us, and through THIS process God grants repentance, so that we could acknowledge the truth, and be recovered from the captivity of the devil’s will. (2Tim 2:24-26) “ Did you have any particular servant in mind…? you say “Believers who cannot obey the words of God are walking in the imaginations of their own evil hearts” Bu it is actally UNbelievers who “cannot” obey, for they are slaves to sin…. Rom 6:6 esv We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Rom 6:17 esv But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, Rom 8:7-8 esv  For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.  (8)  Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Ephesians 2:1 esv  And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— So its not really accurate to say that believers “cannot” obey, it is they are the only ones who can obey…. you say”For many are called (to believe) but only few are chosen (to become Christian)” AMEN!!! you say “Faith is all about dealing truthfully (Prov 12:22)” Well…. faith is also all about trusting Christ alone for salvation… its about believing God's promises…. sure the devils have a kind of faith, one that does not save, but I guess the point is that there are different types of faith, not just the kind mentioned in Pro 12:22… lastly, in regard to “Sinners THINK that they can “PUT ON” the new man without FIRST “putting off” the old man….” and ff…. remember sinners are not able to “put off” until they are first saved… they do not possess the ability to do this… as the scriptures show…. dead men and women can't mortify the flesh because they are slaves to it… it takes a work of God in a person's heart to enable them to mortify the flesh… for this pleasing to God…. right? God wants people to stop sinning…. but the Scripture says that those in the flesh cannot please God. They are dead dead dead in their trespasses and sins until and unless God first opens their blinded eyes. Thats the only thing I wanted clarify… many today preach a “pick yourself up by your own bootstrap” gospel…. just do this good work, or say this formulaic prayer and then “bam” (to quote a famous chef ;), you are saved…. but this just decisional regeneration, versus the true regeneration, which comes only from God… blessings, Ken . Hello there, You Said: so are you sayings a person can be truly saved and still be on the road to hell….? My response: I am saying that believers who are not yet Christian, meaning saved can go to hell.. scriptural references, for the saints, AND the faithful brethren are here Col 1:1, Eph 1:1[/B] You said: Did you have any particular servant in mind…? My Response: Yes, those servants who are in the doctrine of Grace which is the only “one” doctrine that saves those who hear Acts 2:46,42, 1 Tim 4:16, Ts 2:10-12, 2Jn 1:9-10 You Said: So its not really accurate to say that believers “cannot” obey, it is they are the only ones who can obey…. My Response: Even the demons believe in Jesus, and they tremble, so its not enough to just believe, because Jesus said, we will be known by our FRUIT, not our belief. You Said: I guess the point is that there are different types of faith, not just the kind mentioned in Pro 12:22… My Response: Yes, only 2 faiths, really just one, because we start in “our own faith” (Rom 1:8), and Christians have the faith of Christ, PROVIDING they have gone through the crucifying process with Christ, so that they are no longer living their life(in their own will) but Christ is living in them (so that they could live unto God for others)(Gal 2:20.) This is why it is said that we need to come from (our) faith to (the) faith (of Christ) so that we can live just by His faith (Rom 1:17, Hab 2:4). You Said: remember sinners are not able to “put off” until they are first saved… they do not possess the ability to do this… as the scriptures show…. dead men and women can't mortify the flesh because they are slaves to it… it takes a work of God in a person's heart to enable them to mortify the flesh… My Response: We start off as sinners in our own faith however under the instruction of Grace, we learn to ASK God to help us mortify or put off what needs to be put off, so that God would put on the new man because he has been renewed in knowledge to ask for these things, we are Christian when we bome new because God has worked to put the ol d man and his dead work off. Col 3:5-14 I hope I answered your questions satisfactorily. Thank you for responding. Zianna

you said

Quote

My response: I am saying that believers who are not yet Christian, meaning saved can go to hell.. scriptural references, for the saints, AND the faithful brethren are here Col 1:1, Eph 1:1

Believers who are not believers? Believers who are not yet Christians? Impossible. Unless you are giving an entirely different definition to the word “believer”….? A “believer” in what way exactly….? I mean, every one is a “believer” of some sort, even the demons believe in God and tremble. But demons and non-Christians are not typically referred to as “believers”. That's obfuscation.

The term “believer” is used only 2 times in the ESV, and both times, it refers to true believers in Christ….
(Acts 16:1 ESV)  Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek.”
(2 Cor 6:15 ESV)  What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
Here it is worth noting that Paul makes a sharp distinction between believers and non-believers, to point out the obvious then, a believer is a believer in Christ, everyone else is an unbeliever, of the devil (Belial).

So, no, there is no such thing as a “believer” who are not yet Christians.

You point to 2 different verses, though I am not sure why.
Col. 1:1? (Col 1:1 ESV)  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,”
What does this verse have to do with anything we are speaking of here?
Eph. 1:1? (Eph 1:1 ESV)  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
What does this verse have to do with anything we are speaking of here?

Quote

My Response: Yes, those servants who are in the doctrine of Grace which is the only “one” doctrine that saves those who hear Acts 2:46,42, 1 Tim 4:16, Ts 2:10-12, 2Jn 1:9-10

Where might these servants be found?

Quote

My Response: Even the demons believe in Jesus, and they tremble, so its not enough to just believe, because Jesus said, we will be known by our FRUIT, not our belief.

Look again at what I said:

Quote

So its not really accurate to say that believers “cannot” obey, it is they are the only ones who can obey….

Note the different things that are being said…. I was speaking of actions, works… hence my “cannot obey”, as in “unbelievers cannot obey”…. I was not referring to bare belief, such that the demons have, nor was I denying that true believers will always produce good works.

But it is simply false to say that we will not be known by our belief. The thief on the cross was saved, well, according to Jesus anyway. And he did not have time to do any works at all, yet Jesus “knew” him. Again, good works will always accompany true faith, let me make that clear so that there is no need for you to tilt at windmills or fight straw men. But here's the thing, there is no need to promote a false dichotomy between true faith and good works, they are both imortant,  in fact, real “good works” are only possible for those that are saved, those who exercised saving faith, eg belief.
(John 3:14-18 ESV)  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (15) that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. (16) “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Certainly, belief is important. (Works are too!) But we are known by our belief in the only one that can save us, we are never saved by works, period. To preach otherwise is to preach a false gospel.
(Gal 2:16 ESV)  yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
(Gal 2:21 ESV)  I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

We are saved by faith through grace, period. Thus, we are “known” by faith.
(Eph 2:8-9 ESV)  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
But…. we are saved SO THAT we can finally do the good works that have been prepare for us to do….
(Eph 2:10 ESV)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

So that's the main thing I am pointing out, because, really, the very gospel itself is at stake and we must be clear on this  point. We must be careful to NOT assign works a too high place, as if a person is saved by their good works, good works are necessary for salvation in that they SHOW that salvation has taken place, but good works are NOT a NECESSARY AND SUFFICIENT CONDITION for salvation. Necessary…. yes….. necessary and sufficient, no. Good works alone never saves. But true saving faith does save and thus, such persons are indeed “known” by God, and a person is truly saved if they die just after the moment of their salvation, or shortly after, as in the case of the thief on the cross, or perhaps some death bed conversions. No works were necessary or better, were possible for such persons. That is not the usual case, I know. Most persons who are saved need to put forth good works,  or better said, its not that they “need” to do good works, rather, they simply will want to do good works.

As far as the definitions of faith go, the Bible itself describes faith is many ways, nothing you have said or can say can change this simple fact.

Now to your last paragraph. You said

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Yes, only 2 faiths, really just one, because we start in “our own faith” (Rom 1:8)

No. Here is what Ro. 1:8 says: (Rom 1:8 ESV)  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.”
“your faith” in this verse speaks of the true saving faith that those Paul was writing to in Rome possessed. There is no coming from “our faith” to the “faith of Christ”. These believers had faith in Christ and were saved. There is nothing in the biblical text that says otherwise. Yes, true believers need to carry their cross, but once a person exercises saving faith they are crucified with Christ. Its a done deal. You have a habit of list
ing verse references without actually listing the verses themselves, if you would do so, you might see how you are misusing Scripture. In this case, see (Gal 2:20 ESV)  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

“Paul speaks here not of crucifying by imitation or example (for to follow the example of Christ is also to be crucified with Him) which crucifying belongs to the flesh. Whereof Peter speaks in his first epistle, chapter 2: “Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps.” But Paul speaks of that high crucifying, whereby sin, the devil, and death are crucified in Christ and not in me. Here Christ Jesus does all Himself alone. But I believing in Christ, am by faith crucified also with Christ, so that all these things are crucified and dead unto me.”
Luther, M. (1996). Commentary on Galatians.

“Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ,…. Not literally, for so only the two thieves were crucified with him, but mystically; Christ was crucified for him in his room and stead, and so he was crucified with him, and in him, as his head and representative. Christ sustained the persons of all his people, and what he did and suffered was in their name, and on their account, and so they were crucified and suffered with him, as they are said to be buried with him, and to be risen with him, and to sit together in heavenly places in him. Moreover, their old man was crucified with him; when he was crucified, all their sins, the whole body of them, were laid upon him, and he bore them, and bore them away, destroyed and made an end of them; they received their mortal wound by his crucifixion and death, so as never to be able to have any damning power over them; and in consequence of this the affections and lusts are crucified, and the deeds of the body of sin mortified by the Spirit and grace of God, in regeneration and sanctification, so as not to have the dominion over them; the world is crucified to them, and they to the world; and this is another reason proving that justification by Christ is no licentious doctrine.” (Gill)

As far as Ro. 1:17/Hab. 2:4 go… these are not teaching that we need to move from “our” faith to some different kind of faith altogether…..

“Paul says that the righteousness of God is ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν (ek pisteōs eis pistin). This phrase has been interpreted in various ways in the history of the church (Cranfield 1975: 99–100). Most interpretations include the idea of a progression from one kind of faith to another: from the faith of the OT to the faith of the NT; from the faith of the law to the faith of the gospel; from the faith of the preachers to the faith of the hearers; from the faith of the present to the faith of the future; from the faith of words we hear now to the faith that we will possess what the words promise; from the faithfulness of God to the faith of human beings; from the faithfulness of Christ to the faith of human beings; from smaller to greater faith; from faith as the ground to faith as the goal. The radical diversity of interpretations in a phrase containing ambiguity should give us pause. The weakness of all the above interpretations is that they attempt to squeeze more meaning out of the phrase than is warranted.17  Silva (1983a: 153–56) rightly observes that in ambiguous phrases the interpretation that adds the least to the meaning of the passage should be preferred. It is likely, then, that ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν is emphatic in nature, highlighting the centrality of faith (Schlatter 1995: 24–25; Cranfield 1975: 100; Ziesler 1989: 71; Moo 1991: 71; Byrne 1996: 54). This interpretation accords with verse 16, where salvation is for the one who believes (τῷ πιστεύοντι), and with the citation of Hab. 2:4 in verse 17, where faith is necessary for one to be right before God. The use of the participle πιστεύοντι in verse 16 demonstrates that human faith is in view. Since verse 17 is joined to verse 16 logically (γάρ, gar, for), πίστις in verse 17 refers not to the faithfulness of God or Christ but to human faith. It would be confusing to the reader to postulate that the believing is that of human beings in verse 16, while verse 17 denotes God’s faithfulness. The simplest interpretation discerns human faith as the subject throughout. When we recall the centrality of these verses in the letter, the idea that the phrase is emphatic is strengthened inasmuch as Paul asserts repeatedly in the letter that righteousness is by faith (3:22, 28, 30; 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 20–22; 5:1; 9:30; 10:4, 6, 10).18
Schreiner, T. R. (1998). Vol. 6: Romans. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (71). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

“Revealed from faith to faith – Shown to be by faith, and not by the works of any law; for Abraham, the father and founder of the Jewish people, was justified by faith, before even the law was given; and by believing, in reference to the spiritual object held forth in the various ordinances of the law, and now revealed under the Gospel, he and all his believing descendants have been justified. And thus the faith of the old covenant led on to the faith of the new covenant, which shows that salvation has been by faith from the call of Abraham to the present time.” (Clarke)

“From faith to faith: this apostle seems to delight in such repetitions, and there is an elegancy in them: see Rom_6:19 2Co_2:16 2Co_3:18. The words are variously interpreted: from the fiath of the Old Testament to the faith of the New; so that no person ever was or shall be justified in any other way. Or, from a lesser faith to a greater; not noting two faiths, but one and the same faith increasing to perfection. He saith not, from faith to works, or from works to faith; but from faith to faith,  i.e. only by faith. The words to be must be understood: q.d. The gospel reveals the righteousness of God to be from faith to faith. The beginning, the continuance, the accomplishment of our justification is wholly absolved by faith.” (Poole)

lastly, you say

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My Response: We start off as sinners in our own faith however under the instruction of Grace, we learn to ASK God to help us mortify or put off what needs to be put off, so that God would put on the new man because he has been renewed in knowledge to ask for these things, we are Christian when we bome new because God has worked to put the old man and his dead work off. Col 3:5-14

Perhaps the crux of my point is that while sanctification, which you seem to be describing here…. (eg mortification, which is part of sanctification), anyways….. while sanctification can never be separated from justification (good works will always accompany justification/true saving faith), so too, and probably even more importantly, sanctification (growing ever more Christ-like via obedience and good works) must never be confused with justification (which is a declaration by God that a person is right with God based on the finished, completed, exhaustive, not to be added to work of Christ Jesus on the cross).

So, IMHO,  it seems to me, and I may be mistaken…. it has happened a time or two … you seem to be mixing ju
stification and sanctification, just as the Roman Catholic church does, like many other “churches” and cults which say that works are a necessary precondition of salvation. I am not saying that you personally are in a cult. I AM saying that the very gospel itself is at stake and we must be clear on these points.

The Protestant Reformation took great pains to clarify these points, that Rome was wrong where it matters most, on the gospel itself, and sadly many other churches and individuals have mistakenly went down the same path. In an effort to rightly deny easy believism and non-Lordship salvation (eg saying that no works are necessary after salvation) persons mistakenly tack on the performance of good works as a necessary precondition for salvation…. This is a false gospel. So biblical, historical, classical Christianity puts it like this:

grace through Faith = justification……

eg Regeneration precedes faith, which inevitably produces good works….

while Rome and some cults say that…

Works + grace = justification…..

Luther put it like this:

Justification is by faith alone, but never by a faith that is alone.

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I hope I answered your questions satisfactorily. Thank you for responding. Zianna

Me too

blessings,
Ken

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