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Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 16 2013,20:40) Lightenup…I watched the video and I have to say that I disagree. Jesus made it clear that he was not equal with the father!!
First, in the verses that this preacher cited, he is wrong by saying in John 5:19 that Jesus did not refute their suggestion that he was saying that he was equal with the father.
John 5:19 clearly shows an unequal attribute as Jesus states “…The Son can do NOTHING of Himself..” This is the first thing Jesus says when the Jews thought he was
saying that he was equal to God. Jesus was quickly denying equality to God.Furthermore, in John 6:38 Jesus states “For I came down from heaven, not to do MINE OWN will, but the will of HIM that sent ME.”
So we see that He can do nothing of himself and He is here to do God's will and not his own. Yet, we are to believe that He is equal with the Father?If this preacher would have went a little farther in scripture he would have found John 10:30-38. When Jesus is threatened to be stoned for blasphemy because he said “I and my Father are one”, He
then clarifies and states that the scripture says men are gods and asks why do they say that he “blasphemest because “I said, I am the SON of God?”
So from these verses we can see two things. 1) He was not saying that he was God when he said “I and my Father are one.” And 2) He “is the Son of God.”But, back to the equality issue John 12:49 shows that God gave Jesus a commandment of what to say!! Not many that are equal can command someone to say something!!
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”Maybe Matthew 26:53 makes it more clear…Jesus says “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”
Why would one being equal to God need to pray to God to ask for twelve legions of angels?There are many other verses that would prove this point.
Jesus is to be honoured, as God commands us, since He sent Jesus here to die for OUR sins, but that does not make him equal to God as, I believe, Jesus made that clear.
You can believe what you want. Like I said, I really am not looking for an argument, just a place to go worship and fellowship. I do not claim to be a great mind or a Bible scholar, but
I know God is; and, He is to whom I pray to for guidance when studying the Bible. I am sure you mean well, but I am going to have to disagree. I appreciate it though.
jb2u,This is the closest I get to a place of worship though I do visit the buildings of others at various times.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,01:49) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 19 2013,13:43) Hi JB. Have you ever thought about visiting a Seventh Day Adventist Church? They are pretty good and are right into prophecy. Have you ever been there before?
They do believe in a trinity… But they pray to the Father etc much more I have noticed than other Churches. They Do seem to know the difference, I think.
2beesee,They are the church of my mother's family. They are big on end times prophecy they do not understand and on ceremonial, dietary, and Sabbath law. They immerse believers but then so do the Baptists. Being immersed without hearing and believing the true teachings is a way to get wet.
Kerwin,
Some things that I liked about the Adventists:
1) They do not believe in eternal conscious torment so they do know the God of love.
2) They are right into prophecy, and so I feel that they are safe.
3) They make a big deal out of the Saturday sabbath and this is one thing that put me off going, but, then again….. by following the sabbath, and obeying God, what are they doing wrong, exactly.
4) They are spirit filled.
5) They seem to recognize the difference in the Father and in Jesus. I found the pastor at our local congregation always prayed “Heavenly Father”
6) Apparently, they are the fastest growing denomination in the world today.
7) ?To me, they are safe – though I am sure that “wakeup” would disagree!
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,01:49) They immerse believers but then so do the Baptists. Being immersed without hearing and believing the true teachings is a way to get wet. Kerwin, I believe that if a person if forced into baptism against their will then that may be true. but if a person, even a youth decides to become baptized, even without knowing all of the 'why's' and 'whats', they have still made that conscious choice to be baptized.
I believe that Baptism may be a seal.
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 16 2013,09:40) Lightenup…I watched the video and I have to say that I disagree. Jesus made it clear that he was not equal with the father!!
First, in the verses that this preacher cited, he is wrong by saying in John 5:19 that Jesus did not refute their suggestion that he was saying that he was equal with the father.
John 5:19 clearly shows an unequal attribute as Jesus states “…The Son can do NOTHING of Himself..” This is the first thing Jesus says when the Jews thought he was
saying that he was equal to God. Jesus was quickly denying equality to God.Furthermore, in John 6:38 Jesus states “For I came down from heaven, not to do MINE OWN will, but the will of HIM that sent ME.”
So we see that He can do nothing of himself and He is here to do God's will and not his own. Yet, we are to believe that He is equal with the Father?If this preacher would have went a little farther in scripture he would have found John 10:30-38. When Jesus is threatened to be stoned for blasphemy because he said “I and my Father are one”, He
then clarifies and states that the scripture says men are gods and asks why do they say that he “blasphemest because “I said, I am the SON of God?”
So from these verses we can see two things. 1) He was not saying that he was God when he said “I and my Father are one.” And 2) He “is the Son of God.”But, back to the equality issue John 12:49 shows that God gave Jesus a commandment of what to say!! Not many that are equal can command someone to say something!!
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”Maybe Matthew 26:53 makes it more clear…Jesus says “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”
Why would one being equal to God need to pray to God to ask for twelve legions of angels?There are many other verses that would prove this point.
Jesus is to be honoured, as God commands us, since He sent Jesus here to die for OUR sins, but that does not make him equal to God as, I believe, Jesus made that clear.
You can believe what you want. Like I said, I really am not looking for an argument, just a place to go worship and fellowship. I do not claim to be a great mind or a Bible scholar, but
I know God is; and, He is to whom I pray to for guidance when studying the Bible. I am sure you mean well, but I am going to have to disagree. I appreciate it though.Quote <>
English Standard Version
The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath1After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaica called Bethesda,b which has five roofed colonnades. 3In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.c 5One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. 10So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Jesus Is Equal with God18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The Authority of the Son19So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Witnesses to Jesus30“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. 32There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41I do not receive glory from people. 42But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on w
hom you have set your hope. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”Hello jb2u!
you said:Quote Lightenup…I watched the video and I have to say that I disagree.
Thank you for watching the video. I have read your thoughts and I wish to address them because I have a different perspective to offer for you to consider.Quote Jesus made it clear that he was not equal with the father!! First, in the verses that this preacher cited, he is wrong by saying in John 5:19 that Jesus did not refute their suggestion that he was saying that he was equal with the father.
The Jews witnessed that a man was healed and was told that Jesus healed the man. They were ticked because Jesus did this on the Sabbath. Jesus responds by saying, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Now the Jews are not only ticked that Jesus was working on the Sabbath BUT
#1 He was calling God his own Father.
#2 Therefore making Himself equal with God.I want to show you, from the context that Jesus proves to the Jews these things:
#1 The God they confess IS His own Father.
#2 He does what God can do because of this.So, I will list just some of the things Jesus says in order to show that, yes, He is claiming to say that God is His OWN Father.
v. 17 He called God 'My Father.' From what I can tell, the Jews did not refer to God as 'my Father.'
v. 19 He says that He does nothing of His own accord but what He does, it is because He actually can see what the Father does. In other words, everything the Jews are ticked off about regarding what Jesus does, it is their own God that shows Him to do it. I'm sure that didn't sit well with the Jews who thought they were righteous and pleasing God by shaking their finger at Jesus. Basically, Jesus was saying if they didn't like what He did, their problem was with the God of their Father's who had Him do it.
Look at the 13 or so times that I bolded 'Father' in the quoted chapter to see that Jesus is responding in the affirmative that YES, GOD IS IN FACT, HIS VERY OWN FATHER. If the Jews 'got this' they would have followed and served Jesus but instead, they continued to persecute Jesus and did not accept that God was His own Father.
In the next post, I will show you that Jesus tells the Jews He CAN DO and WILL DO what God can do.
Jb2u…cont'd
Quote <>
English Standard Version
The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath1After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaica called Bethesda,b which has five roofed colonnades. 3In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed.c 5One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be healed?” 7The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” 8Jesus said to him, “Get up, take up your bed, and walk.” 9And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. 10So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. 14Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Jesus Is Equal with God18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The Authority of the Son19So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Witnesses to Jesus30“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. 32There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41I do not receive glory from people. 42But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
In my next post, I will refer to the bolded words from this post and make a list to show what Jesus is claiming about Himself and you decide if Jesus is claiming to be God, as the Son (not as the Father).
jb2u…cont'd:
Here are things that Jesus says about Himself, or does, or will do, because God is His very OWN FATHER. As you will see, being the actual SON OF GOD allows HIM to do GOD THINGS. You will see that the emphasis of Jesus' response to the Jews was NOT about what He can't do because He is just a Son but how much He CAN DO BECAUSE HE IS THE ACTUAL ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
1. He healed the invalid by the pool just by telling him to get up and later tells him to sin no more so that nothing worse would happen to him.
2. The Son does what God the Father does.
3. God shows Him what He is doing because He loves the Son.
4. The Father/God will show Him even greater works than what they have seen; and the Son WILL do them.
5. The Father raises the dead and gives them life…so does the Son and the Son chooses whom He is going to give life to.
6. The Father gives ALL JUDGEMENT to the Son.
7. All are to honor Him (Jesus) just like they honor the God of their Father's.
8. If the Jews did not honor Him, they did not honor the God of their Father's.
9. If anyone hears HIS (Jesus') words and believes who sent Him will have eternal life.
10. The dead will hear HIS (Jesus') voice, and those who hear will LIVE.
11. The Son has life in Himself like the Father has life in Himself; the Father granted it so.
12. Jesus has authority to execute the judgment of even those He was speaking with because He is the 'Son of Man.' (I believe that title was significant to them from the Torah).
13. When those in the tombs hear HIS (Jesus') voice, those who have done good go to the resurrection of life…those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement.
14. He hears and He judges with just judgment.
15. He is saying these things so they can be saved.
16. His testimony that He has is GREATER than that of John.
17. The Father gives Him the works that He is doing.
18. God the Father Himself bears witness about Him (Jesus).
19. Jesus told these Jews that they do not have God's word abiding in them because they don't believe Him (Jesus).
20. The very scriptures that those Jews search actually bear witness about HIM (Jesus) who they are actually persecuting.
21. Jesus told these Jews that they did not have the love of God within them.
22. He comes in the Father's name but they do not receive Him.
23. Jesus told the Jews that they DO NOT seek the glory that comes from the only God.
24. Moses wrote about Him (Jesus).
25.They don't believe Moses because if they did, they would believe HIM (Jesus).
SO, jb2u, do you really think that Jesus has set out to convince the Jews that He can do NOTHING or that He can do EVERYTHING THAT THEIR GOD CAN DO and that their very own eternal destiny depends on if they believe in HIM!
No wonder they became more and more threatened by HIM…He basically told them if they didn't realize and start treating Him like God the Father was HIS ACTUAL FATHER and SENT HIM HIMSELF, then they were headed to eternal destruction by HIS choosing and HIS judgement.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2013,08:03) Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 12 2013,14:13) I was raised Baptist. However, I never really got where they were seeing the trinity in scripture. It always seemed clear to me that God literally sent His Son. Never did I see it that God exists in three separate “beings.” This is not a debate about if the trinity is true or not!!! My point is….I love the church environment. I love hearing, as well as reading the word of God. I love the fellowship. I love the singing of hymns. As I search and search for a church, I can not find one that does not believe in the trinity. I look at those religions that do not believe in the trinity; yet they have their own problems (JW, Mormons, Dawn bible students, Christian Scientist, etc).
Is there a church for me? Is there a church that does not believe in the trinity, believes that Jesus rose in the flesh, that you must repent and ask for salvation through Christ? I know that I do not need a “building”. If such a church does not exist, I will continue to do a home bible study. However, I do not want to go and sit in a church in which I disagree with their doctrine. As it has been said 90% true of anything is 100% false!!
I thank everyone here that takes the time to read and/or comment on my post. God is Great!!!
jb2u, the Church you are looking for is the Body of Christ. It is the only Church made up of the sons of God.I am not playing games when I say this. The Body of Christ can be found in all kinds of places and not just denominations. My advice is to find like-minded believers and fellowship when you can. If you cannot, then make disciples like Paul and fellowship with them.
In saying that, I believe you can still have genuine fellowship with those who believe in the Trinity doctrine, so long as they believe that Jesus is the son of God. The people I would avoid are those who teach and are certain about the Trinity Doctrine because they are teaching men to break the first commandment. You will find that most Believers do not understand the Trinity anyway and speak of it rarely, while they will readily admit that Jesus is the son of God.
I also believe that a genuine Believer once shown the scriptures on this would change their mind because scripture is clear that for us, there is one God the Father and he sent his son into the world. This process could take time though.
I pray that you will be able to exercise wisdom regarding this.
This reminds me of the (arguably) greatest physicist of all time, Sir Isaac Newton. Much of his ground breaking work was kept from the public and released some 40 years later, when he believed the time was right. He was also a staunch Believer and he did not believe God was a Trinity, rather that Jesus was the son of God. He never chose to reveal his belief and conviction publicly for had he done that, he would have faced prison. He also believed that they were not ready to have this revealed to them at that time.
With myself, God told me to not reveal this to everyone as they are not ready and it might destroy what faith some already have. But he allowed me to write and share on the Web because the very nature of the Web was search and it is revealed to those who seek, for it is they who will find.
T8, the reason I first stepped onto this website was that I was wanting to know who else believed the trinity teaching was false.Over the years, I've seen at least 5 or 6 others come on here and ask the very question raised about a church that doesn't believe in the trinity.
T8, Although you have stated it numerous times, I don't know if there is a thread devoted to the idea that the body of Christ is a diverse group of believers that don't all believe the same things, that aren't united in belief, or action, or attitude, but only really united by the fact that they believe in Jesus. This is a very politically correct idea, but I don't see how it can be true given what scripture says. Any kingdom divided, falls. If true Christians believe pretty much anything, and have very different standards of conduct, and do very different things, how can it really be said that they are all following Christ? Jesus of course said there would be weeds, false Christians.
I'm wondering if you could create a thread devoted to this idea of the body of Christ, the true church, being individual Christian, found in Babylon the great.
(I'm not looking for you to ad hominem me, or attack what you think my beliefs are, as if that would prove you right. I'm simply looking for you to make your case)
David.
David
I do believe that the true Christians are everywhere ,as individuals it is the research of the truth of God and the way of Christ that make you a Christian ,not the church name,or baptizing in any ,but the true deep love for the truth of God and his son ,we may differ on some views because the maturity and our time we have to study but the deep need for the spiritual food is within us ,that love For God and his son,
We can not give to men what belong to God,unless we do it for the purpose of helping through them what we can not or do not want to do on our own,so that God may in some way collect the interest of our in put.
Lightenup.. you did a wonderful job of proven that a) Jesus is the Son OF God and b) that he is not equal to or God himself.
That much I believe!! No where did he claim to be God or equal to his Father, God. As far as Jesus doing “God things,” as you say, I think we can all agree that the prophets and the disciples all did “God things”, not because they were equal to God or because they were God, right? But rather, they were able to do these things because of the the power given them BY God.
jb2u,
Thank you, I think.
Yes, you can see from John 5 that:
Jesus is definitely telling the Jews that:
He is NOT making Himself equal to God, the Father.
He IS making Himself equal to God, the Son and that apart from Him there would be no eternal salvation possible.You want to compare Jesus to prophets and disciples?
What prophet/disciple chooses who goes to eternal reward or to eternal punishment?
What prophet/disciple is the author of eternal life to men?
What prophet/disciple existed before they were conceived within their mother as an actual presence?
What prophet/disciple abolishes the curse of death for all men?
What prophet/disciple mediates for the eternal destination of all men between them and the Father?
What prophet/disciple is the head of the whole church?
What prophet/disciple purchased the whole church of God with His blood?
What prophet/disciple do we make an eternal covenant through?
What prophet/disciple is a Lord of all?
What prophet/disciple spread out the heavens as the work of His hands?Do you get the point, jb2u?
Hopefully you won't try to be making Jesus out to be equal with the prophets and disciples anymore.
We are both wanting to exalt the Father and Son and Spirit to their proper places, jb2u. I place all three (I didn't say all three persons) right up there at the God Almighty level together as an eternal unity.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 25 2013,03:52) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,01:49) They immerse believers but then so do the Baptists. Being immersed without hearing and believing the true teachings is a way to get wet. Kerwin, I believe that if a person if forced into baptism against their will then that may be true. but if a person, even a youth decides to become baptized, even without knowing all of the 'why's' and 'whats', they have still made that conscious choice to be baptized.
I believe that Baptism may be a seal.
2besee,I misspoke as there is also the immersion of repentance. But is seems reasonable that a person has to believe they will receive the promise of the holy spirit in order to receive it. Apollos and several other of John's disciples are examples of this point.
Kerwin,
Sorry, I made a mistake too. Water baptism and then the Holy Spirit baptism seem to be part and parcel of the invisible seal of God.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.And water baptism with the Spirit also for Jews and gentiles:
Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.Lightenup.. please do not misquote me. I never compared Jesus to the prophets/disciples!!!! I was pointing out that just because Jesus did “God things” does not mean that he was God or equal to God. To prove that point, I stated that the prophets/disciples also did “God things” and they are, in fact, not God or equal to God. I am very aware of the fact that the Son of God is higher than all the angels, prophets, and disciples. Never did I claim that they were equal to Him!!! That being said, scripture also makes it clear that Jesus, being the Son of God, is not God and not equal to God.
John 17:3-4
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.We know the “thee” that Jesus is talking about is God because he begins this prayer by saying “Father.” He is praying to His God and our God. We also see that he says “the ONLY true God.” Not WE are the only true God. He says, “THEE the only true God.” We already established “thee” is His Father and ours. Which makes His Father the “only true God.”
Again, I am not really looking for an argument. I truly appreciate the sincerity in which you reply, but I can join any of the debates in any of the other threads if I wanted to debate about doctrines. I could also go to any church that I wanted to and just try to change minds, but that is not what I want to do. I was looking for a church that teaches exactly what the Bible says without adding on doctrines about a triune God that is not taught in the Bible.
I believe that there is only one truth; and so, I pray that we all, as believers, find the truth and follow it faithfully!!!
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,12:09) We are both wanting to exalt the Father and Son and Spirit to their proper places, jb2u. I place all three (I didn't say all three persons) right up there at the God Almighty level together as an eternal unity.
I place Jesus at the “Servant of God Most High” level…… because that is what the scriptures teach.I agree with jb's point that YES, Jesus IS higher than any of God's other servants. Scripture is clear on this fact. But scripture is just as clear that the God of Jesus is even higher than His servant, Jesus Christ.
Jesus tells me in no uncertain terms that my God is also his God. And since the God OF Jesus isn't some unity of two or three persons, neither then is my God………… because I and Jesus both have the same, one God.
Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 25 2013,20:26) Lightenup.. please do not misquote me. I never compared Jesus to the prophets/disciples!!!! I was pointing out that just because Jesus did “God things” does not mean that he was God or equal to God. To prove that point, I stated that the prophets/disciples also did “God things” and they are, in fact, not God or equal to God. I am very aware of the fact that the Son of God is higher than all the angels, prophets, and disciples. Never did I claim that they were equal to Him!!! That being said, scripture also makes it clear that Jesus, being the Son of God, is not God and not equal to God. John 17:3-4
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.We know the “thee” that Jesus is talking about is God because he begins this prayer by saying “Father.” He is praying to His God and our God. We also see that he says “the ONLY true God.” Not WE are the only true God. He says, “THEE the only true God.” We already established “thee” is His Father and ours. Which makes His Father the “only true God.”
Again, I am not really looking for an argument. I truly appreciate the sincerity in which you reply, but I can join any of the debates in any of the other threads if I wanted to debate about doctrines. I could also go to any church that I wanted to and just try to change minds, but that is not what I want to do. I was looking for a church that teaches exactly what the Bible says without adding on doctrines about a triune God that is not taught in the Bible.
I believe that there is only one truth; and so, I pray that we all, as believers, find the truth and follow it faithfully!!!
jb2u,
Well, God calls Him God. So don't go to a church that agrees with God then. What does that prove? It proves that you don't accept that God calls Him God.It is a futile path that you seek if you look to find a church that does not agree with God who calls the son God also.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2013,20:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2013,12:09) We are both wanting to exalt the Father and Son and Spirit to their proper places, jb2u. I place all three (I didn't say all three persons) right up there at the God Almighty level together as an eternal unity.
I place Jesus at the “Servant of God Most High” level…… because that is what the scriptures teach.I agree with jb's point that YES, Jesus IS higher than any of God's other servants. Scripture is clear on this fact. But scripture is just as clear that the God of Jesus is even higher than His servant, Jesus Christ.
Jesus tells me in no uncertain terms that my God is also his God. And since the God OF Jesus isn't some unity of two or three persons, neither then is my God………… because I and Jesus both have the same, one God.
Yes, I know that you deny the eternity of the Father. I am fully aware of that. I don't deny the eternity of the Father.Talk about lies and breaking the rules of HN!
I believe that my heavenly Father has existed from eternity, Kathi. I don't believe He was a Father until He begot His firstborn Son, Jesus.
Why – is there a scripture that says He has ALWAYS been a Father? Show it to me, if there is one.
If not, shhh……………
No you don't Mike. If you truly believed that your heavenly Father existed from eternity, you would believe in an eternal Son.
Lightenup…Well, let's clarify a few things.
1) There were several “representatives of God” that were called God in scripture. These representatives came to speak for God, as no man can lay eyes on God; and so, they were called God in the Bible, the inspired word of GOD.
2) Also, John 10:34-36, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye Are Gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken: Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest: because I said, I am the Son of God?” You see, Jesus already has answered this argument for you. God knew that men would claim that Jesus was God himself. Jesus, here, denied being God. He states that He is the Son of God (NO not God the Son).
3) As far as John 1:1 goes, yes, John states the Word was God.; however, we do not know by this one verse if he is saying Jesus is God. We can not pull one verse from the Bible and think we know God. Scripture always reveals scripture!! In John 1:18, John finishes by stating, “No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” So, John states that NO MAN has seen God. He does not say no man has seen God the Father; no, he says no man has seen God. He goes on to say Jesus “declared him.” How do you declare something? In words, right?
4) We also know that not every time we see the word “God” in the Bible it means GOD, the one true God. You do know that right? So, in the text of John 1:1, it states the Word was theos. Theos in Greek has different meanings and is used in many ways. Even men in the flesh are referred to in Greek as theos. False Gods in Greek are referred to in Greek as theos. Theos, in Greek, referred to emperors, judges, and authorities. Yes, it was also used for the one true God, but theos is never used as the personal name of the one true God. What does this mean? It means we can not use this word “theos” to say John is saying that Jesus is GOD. We have to look further in scripture for the true meaning. Since it is John that wrote “the Word was God”, We can start by looking into all of John's words to find out if by “theos” John was calling Jesus God.
5) So, let's get back to John. In 1 John 5:20 John states, “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” Who is the “him” that is true and the true God? It is Jesus's Father, God. John is not claiming here that Jesus is also God or God the Son. Is there anywhere else that John claims Jesus is God? If so, please list the verse. If not, then obviously John had a different meaning for “theos” when he wrote that the Word was theos. Certainly he would not have only stated it one time and then contradict himself over and over again by stating that Jesus was the Son of God and not a part of a triune God. Right?
6) Let's go to Matthew. I believe that scripture reveals the truth, don't you?
Matthew 16:15-18. Jesus asks Peter, who do you say that I am? Peter states “thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Please note, he does NOT say you are GOD. Now how does Jesus respond to Peter calling him the Son of God? Jesus says “Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Now notice that Jesus says that Peter is blessed because he knows that Jesus is the Son of God (not that he is God or part of a triune God, right?). Jesus does not stop there. He goes on to say, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Now that is powerful!! This man, who knows that God is God and Jesus is the Son OF God, will have Jesus' church built upon him!! It seems that Jesus and God want the church to be built on truth. The truth that there is but one God, and God is Jesus' Father, Amen!!7) Again, we can not look at a verse and define it. We must look at the word of God in it's entirety. God wants us to KNOW Him!! Why would He HIDE this mystery of a triune God to a people that He proclaims that He wants us to know? He has revealed Himself over and over in the Bible. He sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins. What a gift!! He sent His Son so that we might know HIM, not so that we would know some triune God. Not so we can not really understand but just take it as doctrine because some people in 300 AD say it is a triune God and well it is a mystery, so don't try to understand it, if not we'll kill you!! No, Jesus made it clear!! He came so that we may know His Father and ours, the one true God…GOD!!
Please do not say “It proves that you don't accept that God calls Him God.” I accept everything that the Bible says!! But, I know that you can not take a verse out of context or interpret a verse by itself. That is what satan did to Eve and to Jesus, right? I am not attacking your faith. So, please do not attack mine by saying that I do not accept God's words.
Hi jb2u, I have also had the same problem with finding a church, which is how I first came to this site (i googled “which church is the right church?). When I came back to God after making it through my teen years I went to a few different church`s with poeple I met, but being raised as a JW ment that I had some very strong views on what was truth. As some of these views came apart I remember becoming very confused. Then one day I was using my nieghbours computer and was looking up about the JWs some of the things I read where untrue about thier teachings, but other things rang true, at this point I was so upset, I`d never felt so lost before in my life I felt despair just take over me. I went home to my flat and as I shut the front door behind me I cried out to God and just said, God you have to let me know which church is the right church…
As I said this I found my self stood in a barren wilderness, on the horizon in every direction there where thousands of mountains, then I saw straight paths going away from me in every direction then without a word being said I was told to look straight up, as I did this the vision went and straight away I knew what it meant.
I was in a wilderness all alone which was how I was feeling, the mountains where all the different churches in the world and then the paths where all straight paths which would have lead me straight to one of the church`s, but not one path was different to the other, but then I was told without a word being said look up you dont have to go down any path come straight to me.
Over time I have learnt not to look for the right church on earth because Jesus is the church, rather I look for people who are part of that church and when I do meet them i know because you can feel the presense of Jesus with us as we talk and I know then that they are my brother or sister and I feel a real love and belonging.
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