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Quote I disagree with the teaching of t8 and others though I converse with those Jehovah chooses to put in front of me to converse with. –kerwin
Does this mean that t8 is a false teacher (because he teaches things that are false in your opinion)?
Or, is he a true teacher (and yet teaches false things)?
Hi Pierre, (oops I mean Kerwin)
You're suppose to be the one who answers it.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ April 15 2013,07:23) Quote I disagree with the teaching of t8 and others though I converse with those Jehovah chooses to put in front of me to converse with. –kerwin
Does this mean that t8 is a false teacher (because he teaches things that are false in your opinion)?
Or, is he a true teacher (and yet teaches false things)?
David,That means t8 is being influenced by the evil one just as Peter was when he rebuked Jesus for teachings he found repugnant. If that made Peter a false teacher then anyone that does likewise is also a false teacher.
I will say this, if t8 claims to be a teacher and his teaching are false then he is a false teacher. I hope that he is instead striving to learn and has stumbled like Peter.
Note: miss-addressed this. Now correct.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 08 2013,11:17) jb2u,
I believe you did not answer this or maybe I missed it. Please answer this:Can you prove that Jesus is not the only begotten God the Son? Can you prove that Jesus is not claiming to be God the Son? I am not asking you to prove that Jesus isn't God the Father.
Sorry, I've been busy the last couple of weeks.I can prove that Jesus is not the only begotten God the Son easily….due to the fact that it NEVER says that in the Bible!!!
He is and does say He is the Son of God (NOT God the Son).Jesus NEVER claimed to be God the Son!!! He never says “I am not God the Son,” but He never said, “I am God the Son,” either!!!
So where did this God the Son come from? Jesus? NO. The apostles? No. God? No. Who then first came up with this idea?
Moses? No. Surely it was John, right? No. Not one person in the Bible, the inspired word of GOD, states that Jesus is God the Son!! Not ONE time!!! It's funny how trinitarians made up a name for Jesus that isn't even in the Bible, and they expect people to accept it as Biblical truth!!jb2u…………….Good post brother , Jesus is not God the Son , he is the son of GOD just as you have said.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2013,12:23) Quote (david @ April 15 2013,07:23) Quote I disagree with the teaching of t8 and others though I converse with those Jehovah chooses to put in front of me to converse with. –kerwin
Does this mean that t8 is a false teacher (because he teaches things that are false in your opinion)?
Or, is he a true teacher (and yet teaches false things)?
T8,That means t8 is being influenced by the evil one just as Peter was when he rebuked Jesus for teachings he found repugnant. If that made Peter a false teacher then anyone that does likewise is also a false teacher.
I will say this, if t8 claims to be a teacher and his teaching are false then he is a false teacher. I hope that he is instead striving to learn and has stumbled like Peter.
Kerwinso to your logic and understanding ;you would be right and all others wrong,
but scriptures calls for the written words of God to be the truth ,
and any one who does not line himself with them would be called a false teacher,
and when we come to argue or discuss a point and scriptures agree with one then the other should be glad to have learned and wisely change his view to that new light ,right
but if that one chooses to interpret the scriptures into a fashion to support his way of thinking ,and refuses to answer question that would eliminate his interpretation and so be declared false ,would he not be called a false teacher in the action of refusing to accept the truth then learned
Quote (terraricca @ April 18 2013,07:12) Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2013,12:23) Quote (david @ April 15 2013,07:23) Quote I disagree with the teaching of t8 and others though I converse with those Jehovah chooses to put in front of me to converse with. –kerwin
Does this mean that t8 is a false teacher (because he teaches things that are false in your opinion)?
Or, is he a true teacher (and yet teaches false things)?
T8,That means t8 is being influenced by the evil one just as Peter was when he rebuked Jesus for teachings he found repugnant. If that made Peter a false teacher then anyone that does likewise is also a false teacher.
I will say this, if t8 claims to be a teacher and his teaching are false then he is a false teacher. I hope that he is instead striving to learn and has stumbled like Peter.
Kerwinso to your logic and understanding ;you would be right and all others wrong,
but scriptures calls for the written words of God to be the truth ,
and any one who does not line himself with them would be called a false teacher,
and when we come to argue or discuss a point and scriptures agree with one then the other should be glad to have learned and wisely change his view to that new light ,right
but if that one chooses to interpret the scriptures into a fashion to support his way of thinking ,and refuses to answer question that would eliminate his interpretation and so be declared false ,would he not be called a false teacher in the action of refusing to accept the truth then learned
T,It is not the written Word that is true but the inspiration of God that brings men to a true understanding. Satan used Scripture to tempt Jesus and the Sadducees misunderstood about the issue of the resurrection. There are many who say they go by Scripture but who's works and teaching testify the do not know God.
Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2013,15:32) T, It is not the written Word that is true but the inspiration of God that brings men to a true understanding. Satan used Scripture to tempt Jesus and the Sadducees misunderstood about the issue of the resurrection. There are many who say they go by Scripture but who's works and teaching testify the do not know God.
I see what you are saying Kerwin; however, keep in mind that Satan did exactly what many trinitarians do. He did not use Scripture to tempt Jesus. He used a VERSE from Scripture. There is a difference.As far as false teachers go, I'd say if someone is TEACHING false things then they are a false teacher. This should worry them.
However, I am not a teacher. I am a follower of Christ. Now, I may have a discussion with another follower of Christ, and I could be incorrect about something. That would not make me a false teacher!! Rather, it shows that I have further to grow as a disciple of Christ. We all have different levels of maturity. As 1Peter2 says, we will grow by the sincere milk of the word!
Growth is not immediate. Growth is by time spent with the word and with the intentions of the heart. My point is…we can not convict each other as false teachers. Instead, we should love one another. We should seek to help one another understand with the understanding that the truth is going to come only from the Holy Spirit of God. There may be a reason why someone is blind to the truth!! Maybe their heart really is not sincere. Maybe they are looking for a way to live in sin and yet still be saved. Maybe they want the world AND the Kingdom of God.
I think everyone should look to the Bible as the authority. This website is wonderful. It helps to get the word out. But, I want everyone to go to the Bible for verification. If someone quotes a verse of Scripture to prove a point, I look in the Bible to see what is the context of that verse!!
I pray for the truth to come to us all. I want everyone to be saved. Now, I know that is not going to happen. But, just like it was never God's desire that any should perish, it is not my desire either. May GOD bless us all.
Quote (david @ April 13 2013,15:14) Everyone thinks they are teaching correctly Everyone thinks they have truth
Everyone thinks they are searching for truth.
Everyone thinks they are on the narrow path.
Most are wrong, delusional, deceiving themselves.
But I am focusing on the true teachers that apparently teach the truth.
Who are these people? Where are they? Can any two be found who teach the same things? If so, what are these teachings? I'm not really disagreeing with you. I just want to understand how what you say is possible or makes sense realistically.
If the true Christians, the wheat, are scattered among the world, not connected to false religion, which you would expect them not to be (flee from Babylon the great) then what do they believe? How do they fellowship with each other? How do they all preach the same things? If they preach different things, then how can they all be true teachers?
I struggle with these questions and they seem unanswered.
Everyone thinks something. But we will all be judged by a God who is true. My point is that there are obviously people who teach correctly and those who don't. The line is a bit blurry in that a true teacher can still teach some false doctrine and a false teacher can still teach some truth.Ultimately I believe that God blesses those whom he blesses with that gift and then with revelation or understanding gained from the spirit of God.
So who are these true teachers? Well I don't have a full list of names, but I can assure you that it is not exclusive to any denomination. But granted, it is likely that some denominations will have more true teachers than others. Ultimately though, they are likely scattered around the place.
And we will know those who are true if we have the spirit of truth in us. And we will led astray by false teachers if our hearts have strayed.
Quote (jb2u @ April 17 2013,07:50) Quote (Lightenup @ April 08 2013,11:17) jb2u,
I believe you did not answer this or maybe I missed it. Please answer this:Can you prove that Jesus is not the only begotten God the Son? Can you prove that Jesus is not claiming to be God the Son? I am not asking you to prove that Jesus isn't God the Father.
Sorry, I've been busy the last couple of weeks.I can prove that Jesus is not the only begotten God the Son easily….due to the fact that it NEVER says that in the Bible!!!
He is and does say He is the Son of God (NOT God the Son).Jesus NEVER claimed to be God the Son!!! He never says “I am not God the Son,” but He never said, “I am God the Son,” either!!!
So where did this God the Son come from? Jesus? NO. The apostles? No. God? No. Who then first came up with this idea?
Moses? No. Surely it was John, right? No. Not one person in the Bible, the inspired word of GOD, states that Jesus is God the Son!! Not ONE time!!! It's funny how trinitarians made up a name for Jesus that isn't even in the Bible, and they expect people to accept it as Biblical truth!!
Hi jb2u,
No problem, I have been plenty busy too these past couple of weeks.Would you agree that 'God, the one and only Son' is a fair description of the God that is “in closest relationship with the Father” from how this verse is translated in the NIV?
NIV
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.How about the NASB…would you agree that 'the only begotten God' would be a fair title of the God that explains the Father according to how this same verse is translated in the NASB?
NASB
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2013,00:39) Hi jb2u,
No problem, I have been plenty busy too these past couple of weeks.Would you agree that 'God, the one and only Son' is a fair description of the God that is “in closest relationship with the Father” from how this verse is translated in the NIV?
NIV
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.How about the NASB…would you agree that 'the only begotten God' would be a fair title of the God that explains the Father according to how this same verse is translated in the NASB?
NASB
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
No. The word used is “theos.” If you believe that using the word “theos” means GOD, then you must also say satan is God. Why? Because satan is called “theos” in 2Corinthians 4:4. It is the same word, “theos”!!!Again, God said that there are many gods (theoi), but he is the only one true GOD. Let's not make the mistake of finding a verse that calls Jesus “theos” and say, “see He is God.”
jb2j,
2 Cor 4:4 does not mention Satan specifically, you and others imply this, but Jehovah has a history of blinding the mind of unbelievers and belittling the wisdom of man.Anyway theos is applied to others but theos and Jehovah are both applied to the Son who is the Word.
Quote Let's not make the mistake of finding a verse that calls Jesus “theos” and say, “see He is God.”
I clearly shown you that John 1:18 says that the Son is himself God. Every translator that translates theos in this verse, capitalizes the G, btw. Your problem is with your denial that Jesus is also God who in the beginning was with the Father.
Scripture says “The holy elohim are He.” Plurality in the unity of God.
You know Lightenup there is this apologist, Frank Turek. I watch his series “I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.” I think it is a good series showing proof that God is real; however, he believes
that Jesus is God.On one of his shows, he said, “they killed Christ because He claimed to be God.” “Why else would they kill Him.” “The Jews found it to be blasphemy and Pontius Pilate felt that his authority was challenged.”
Now, I ask, is this true? No, of course not. A casual reading of the Bible will show this to be untrue. The Jews thought that since Jesus was calling Himself the Son of God that meant that He was claiming to be equal. Jesus proved that this was not the case though. The Jews did not like Jesus challenging their authority and traditions. However, Pilate said Jesus did nothing wrong and that He was a “just” man. He washed his hands of Jesus' blood because he did not feel that Jesus did anything wrong. Pilate surely did not feel his authority was questioned, and Jesus never claimed to be God, as Frank Turek claims.
My point is there are many very smart men out there that can not see the truth!! I don't know why they believe in the Trinity. Is it tradition? Are they afraid to believe in the “heresy” that is non-trinitarianism? Are they just not reading the Bible? Do they just refuse to accept the words of Christ? Why?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2013,02:22) jb2j,
2 Cor 4:4 does not mention Satan specifically, you and others imply this, but Jehovah has a history of blinding the mind of unbelievers and belittling the wisdom of man.Anyway theos is applied to others but theos and Jehovah are both applied to the Son who is the Word.
Quote Let's not make the mistake of finding a verse that calls Jesus “theos” and say, “see He is God.”
I clearly shown you that John 1:18 says that the Son is himself God. Every translator that translates theos in this verse, capitalizes the G, btw. Your problem is with your denial that Jesus is also God who in the beginning was with the Father.
Scripture says “The holy elohim are He.” Plurality in the unity of God.
Wrong. You clearly showed me that Jesus is called “theos.” You then go on to admit that “others are called theos too,” but then imply that you do not care. You still interpret this verse as Jesus is the one true God.This is why I say, do not just take one verse and interpret it!! Over and over again, Jesus and the disciples say Jesus is the SON of GOD, never god himself. And yet, you disregard all of that because you have a verse that calls Jesus “theos”, not God and not the God!!
And yes, God has blinded people, but 2 Cor 4:4 is talking about the prince of this world, satan. Again, look at the context and not just the verse. Paul is saying that God commanded the light to shine to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. And you are saying, God is the one that blocked the light so that it would not shine on the lost? Jesus was sent by God to save the lost!! Why would God be the one to blind them? God wishes that no one perish!! Please reconsider who is blinding in 2Cor4:4.
Lightenup…I stumbled upon something that you might be interested in (or not). In reference to John 1:18, I was wondering why my KJV says only begotten Son and yours says only begotten God.
I found that there are two manuscript versions out there, some say begotten Son and some say begotten God. The interesting thing is ALL of the manuscripts that say, “only begotten God” are found ONLY in the Alexandrian text (Egypt). Whereas, the verse “only begotten Son” is found in the Western, Caesarean, and Byzantine texts. Also, consider that the phrase “only begotten God” is very foreign to every other scripture or description of Jesus. He
is always the begotten Son of God. Why would this one verse be thrown in that would seem to be contrary to every other verse? Just something to think about. This is why I said before that we have to be very careful about what translations we look at. And when something is changed or added, we have to consider the reason such a thing would be changed!! Maybe consider reading the KJV along with your NIV?? When you see a discrepancy, seek out the truth. God wants us all to know the truth!!Quote (jb2u @ April 18 2013,11:17) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2013,02:22) jb2j,
2 Cor 4:4 does not mention Satan specifically, you and others imply this, but Jehovah has a history of blinding the mind of unbelievers and belittling the wisdom of man.Anyway theos is applied to others but theos and Jehovah are both applied to the Son who is the Word.
Quote Let's not make the mistake of finding a verse that calls Jesus “theos” and say, “see He is God.”
I clearly shown you that John 1:18 says that the Son is himself God. Every translator that translates theos in this verse, capitalizes the G, btw. Your problem is with your denial that Jesus is also God who in the beginning was with the Father.
Scripture says “The holy elohim are He.” Plurality in the unity of God.
Wrong. You clearly showed me that Jesus is called “theos.” You then go on to admit that “others are called theos too,” but then imply that you do not care. You still interpret this verse as Jesus is the one true God.This is why I say, do not just take one verse and interpret it!! Over and over again, Jesus and the disciples say Jesus is the SON of GOD, never god himself. And yet, you disregard all of that because you have a verse that calls Jesus “theos”, not God and not the God!!
And yes, God has blinded people, but 2 Cor 4:4 is talking about the prince of this world, satan. Again, look at the context and not just the verse. Paul is saying that God commanded the light to shine to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. And you are saying, God is the one that blocked the light so that it would not shine on the lost? Jesus was sent by God to save the lost!! Why would God be the one to blind them? God wishes that no one perish!! Please reconsider who is blinding in 2Cor4:4.
jb2u,
you said:Quote You still interpret this verse as Jesus is the one true God. Wrong! John 1:18 and John 1:1 speak of two who are God.
Plurality in the eternal unity!The Holy elohim are He.
You agree that clearly the Bible says that Jesus is called theos.
Please answer this jb2u:
Who or what is Jesus theos to?a. no one/nothing
b. some one/somethingIf choice b. then tell me who or what, thanks!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2013,11:55) Wrong! John 1:18 and John 1:1 speak of two who are God.
Plurality in the eternal unity!The Holy elohim are He.
You agree that clearly the Bible says that Jesus is called theos.
Please answer this jb2u:
Who or what is Jesus theos to?a. no one/nothing
b. some one/somethingIf choice b. then tell me who or what, thanks!
I do not see the purality in unity that you so clearly see.Never is Jesus referred to as THE God.
Jesus never refers to Himself as God or God the Son.I'm not sure of the question your asking. Of course, Jesus is someone. He is my Lord and Savior. He is the only begotten SON of God.
I believe that He is everything that HE claimed to be. I, however, reject what others claim, that He is God Himself.
Have you ever, even for a second, wondered why there was not this controversy in the Bible about this new idea of a triune God? Think about it. The Jews never thought about a triune God, EVER!! The Bible tells of how they questioned this new idea of being saved by grace instead of the law. They argued about what to eat. They had a hard time accepting this idea that the gentiles were under salvation as well. All of this was a new idea for them. So why then do we not have any controversy in the Bible about a triune God?? This controversy did not even come up until 3 centuries later!!! Even then, they had to have many councils, not just the nicene council to decide exactly what is the doctrine of this triune God!!!
And what did these triune God believing men do to the non-trinitarians. Did they try to “show them the light”? Did they try to plea with their fellow brothers in Christ? Did they follow Jesus' commandment to love one another? No, No, and No. They killled them and burned their materials. That does not seem like “good fruit” to me. And well, we all know that a good tree bears good fruit; whereas, a bad tree bears bad fruit, right?
I know that you are not going to believe that their is God and then there is His Son, not God the son, but as Jesus said, Son of God!! But can't you just for a minute, pause and think about all scripture? Think about the men who came up with this idea? What was their agenda? Why kill people that did not believe the way that you want them to believe? Again, why no controversy in the Bible about this NEW idea of a triune God. Today, the Jews still have a problem with Christianity because of the belief in the Trinity; so yea, it would be a new idea to them. But, you think that they would just accept it and say, “oh, God is three in one, okay…no questions from me.”
Does it not give you pause at all that Jesus calls His Father the one ONLY true God. That He NEVER says that He is God. That, everything He has, even after His resurrection, (so don't give me that “well He humbled Himself on Earth”) He says His Father GAVE Him!!
How about the fact that after the millenium, when death is destroyed, then Jesus will turn the Kingdom back over to His Father, God. (1Cor15:24-28) Jesus, the Son of God, for eternity is subject to God. How is that? Not because He has humbled Himself. This is after the millenium reign. Sin is no more and then He turns it over to God, His Father. At least, pause and think about that for a few minutes. Seek God's advice on this. How can a co-equal God be subject to another co-equal God for eternity?? And where is the Holy Ghost/Spirit in the end? Where is His worship? Where is His throne? I mean He is one of the “persons” in this triune God, right?? Surely, He gets worship or a throne? Please give me the Bible verse. I really want to see it. I really want to know that I am putting my faith in the Bible and not some doctrine of man. I want to know that I am not just blindly following the masses to destruction!! Since you are so sure of your triune God concept, surely you have a Bible verse where the Holy Spirit gets worship and a throne in the end. Right? What verse is the revelation of this triune God anyway? Where did the apostles teach this triune God concept? It was a completely new idea!! Surely there are at least a few verses where SOMEONE said, “verily I say to you God is one, but three, but think of it as one, don't try to understand it, but three in one, got it guys?” Surely this verse is at least 3 times in the Bible, right? I mean you are pretty sure that Jesus did not mean that His Father is the one true and ONLY God when He said that; so, I am hoping that you have some overwhelming evidence that rebukes Jesus' claim to be the Son of God and that His Father is the one true God. I really am not trying to be condescending. I just do not see how someone can believe something in spite of what Jesus said. I really can't.
I will wait for the verses.
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