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Quote (david @ April 04 2013,10:44) Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2013,02:34) Quote (david @ April 03 2013,12:11) Terrarica, that's not what I'm doing here. How would you answer my question: does it seem to you that the “true teachers” kerwin speaks of should be teaching the same things? Or, would the true teachers teach different things, based on location, preference, opinion, tradition, etc?
DavidYes I will answer you :
First the only truth we have is the scriptures,so all or any that says to follow the truth would do it in according to the scriptures truth right
YesNow we have to look at why the truth to some may not be the same ;
1) personal interest
2) greed ,
3) the love of self gloryso looking at what it takes to be true in truth before God almighty,it would take :self sacrifice ,guiding yourself by humility to make the glory of God and his son more important than your own ,the glory of them being the full truth,
Also accepting that we are nothing ,and that the scriptures is all we have to become closer to our creator,and we should not try to show others in our ego that we are something that they are not ,because we all receive from God according to our devotion to him .
The teachers should understand that he does not own the spirit of truth that comes from God through Christ ,and so any disciples he make it as to be made for God s glory not his own,
If I miss something ,remind me ,
Hi terr,So, is that a yes? The “true teachers” kerwin spoke of should be teaching the same things–?
Davidyes, and should be all in scriptures ,if it is not their must be a reason and we should find out what that reason is ,
Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2013,05:49) You have failed to prove that using one with the singular pronoun means one person. Can you show me anywhere that says it/he/she/I is echad and it can't possible be a unity in plurality, such as a nation? Can you admit that the Shema statement alone as originally written, does not give you enough information to decide if YHVH is one person or one set?
We have went around and around on this whole “pronoun” thing. It is obvious to me that you want to believe that there is a plural God; and so, you see “echad” as meaning one set. I believe that there is one God and so “echad” means one only. The whole point that God wanted to convey is that God is one. He could have said “there are three of us in one and we are one!” but He did not. Why? Well, He either did not want us to know OR He is not “three in one.” You will go with the first. I will go with the second. I base that on the fact that He WANTS us to know Him. He created us to be with Him, and the day will come when He will get that fellowship!!The Shema gives me plenty of evidence that God is one. I understand that it does not give it to you. No one verse can be used to derive meaning. We must know the scripture as a whole. Therefore, God tells us over and over that He is God and He is one. Jesus says that He is here to do His Fathers work. To give His Father glory. To say what His Father tells him to say. That His Father is greater than He is. That His Father is God, the ONE true God and that we are Jesus' brothers and sisters. Studying all the scriptures together and not just one verse, I see that there is ONE God, and Jesus is NOT Him!!! Is that not fair? How is that unbiblical? In order for someone to believe otherwise, they must first “read into” verses, pull verses out of context, and totally ignore what Jesus said Himself about both God and Himself!!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2013,05:49) you asked me: Quote I could ask you the same. Where does it say GOD is Jesus and His Father together? Deut 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.The NT clarifies that for US, there is one God and one Lord and they are not the same person. One is the Father and the other is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.The NT also clarifies Jesus Christ as the Lord of lords.
Rev 17:14
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”The OT has the Word of YHVH declaring HIMSELF as YHVH. Gen 15.
Quote 4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspringd be.” 6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
7He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”
So, there is YHVH of whom the Word is 'of' and the Word is YHVH also.
My understanding is that YHVH is the name of a corporate God in some contexts and the name of either member of the corporate God in other contexts.
This would not be unlike the name 'Israel' which is the name of a corporate nation in some contexts or the name of an individual member whom the nation is named after…Jacob.
Well all of these quotes from the Bible would suggest that which I already know…that God is the Father and Jesus is His Son and our Lord. Right? You did not show where Jesus is either a part of or God Himself!!I understand that you believe that YHVH is a family name (corporate name??). However, God does not say or suggest that it is. People see what they want into scripture instead of studying the whole Bible. That is why we are to study and not just read. But, I bet you already know that.
Quote (jb2u @ April 05 2013,14:18) Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2013,05:49) You have failed to prove that using one with the singular pronoun means one person. Can you show me anywhere that says it/he/she/I is echad and it can't possible be a unity in plurality, such as a nation? Can you admit that the Shema statement alone as originally written, does not give you enough information to decide if YHVH is one person or one set?
We have went around and around on this whole “pronoun” thing. It is obvious to me that you want to believe that there is a plural God; and so, you see “echad” as meaning one set. I believe that there is one God and so “echad” means one only. The whole point that God wanted to convey is that God is one. He could have said “there are three of us in one and we are one!” but He did not. Why? Well, He either did not want us to know OR He is not “three in one.” You will go with the first. I will go with the second. I base that on the fact that He WANTS us to know Him. He created us to be with Him, and the day will come when He will get that fellowship!!The Shema gives me plenty of evidence that God is one. I understand that it does not give it to you. No one verse can be used to derive meaning. We must know the scripture as a whole. Therefore, God tells us over and over that He is God and He is one. Jesus says that He is here to do His Fathers work. To give His Father glory. To say what His Father tells him to say. That His Father is greater than He is. That His Father is God, the ONE true God and that we are Jesus' brothers and sisters. Studying all the scriptures together and not just one verse, I see that there is ONE God, and Jesus is NOT Him!!! Is that not fair? How is that unbiblical? In order for someone to believe otherwise, they must first “read into” verses, pull verses out of context, and totally ignore what Jesus said Himself about both God and Himself!!
jb2u. I encourage you to continue sharing the wisdom and knowledge that has been imparted to you. It seems clear to me that your words agree with scripture and are easy to understand.And your posts are not confusing, and hiding the devil in the details like the doctrines of man do.
God bless you for the simple truth.
Matthew 24:45-46
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.jb2u,
Thanks once again for your input.
You said:Quote The Shema gives me plenty of evidence that God is one. I understand that it does not give it to you. I also agree that God is one. This is a plural oneness as most Christians agree. Let's look at some commentaries:
Deut 6:4
Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is oneBarnes on Deut 6:4
Quote This weighty text contains far more than a mere declaration of the unity of God as against polytheism; or of the sole authority of the revelation that He had made to Israel as against other pretended manifestations of His will and attributes. It asserts that the Lord God of Israel is absolutely God, and none other. He, and He alone, is Jehovah (Yahweh) the absolute, uncaused God; the One who had, by His election of them, made Himself known to Israel. Clarke:
Quote as every Christian receives the doctrine of the unity of God in the most conscientious manner. It is because of their rejection of this doctrine that the wrath of God continues to rest on them; for the doctrine of the atonement cannot be received, unless the doctrine of the Godhead of Christ is received too. Some Christians have joined the Jews against this doctrine, and some have even outdone them, and have put themselves to extraordinary pains to prove that אלהים Elohim is a noun of the singular number! This has not yet been proved. It would be as easy to prove that there is no plural in language. Gill
Quote These are the words of Moses, stirring up the people to an attention to what he was about to say of this great and momentous article, the unity of God, to prevent their going into polytheism and idolatry See how they all speak of the 'unity of God?'
jb2u,
you said:Quote I base that on the fact that He WANTS us to know Him. He created us to be with Him, and the day will come when He will get that fellowship!! Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit.
2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.1 John 1:3
that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.Would you like to have fellowship with the Father? Then you must also have fellowship with the Son and the Holy Spirit. We need to read the whole Bible and accept what it teaches.
Quote (jb2u @ April 04 2013,19:35) Quote (Lightenup @ April 05 2013,05:49) you asked me: Quote I could ask you the same. Where does it say GOD is Jesus and His Father together? Deut 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.The NT clarifies that for US, there is one God and one Lord and they are not the same person. One is the Father and the other is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.The NT also clarifies Jesus Christ as the Lord of lords.
Rev 17:14
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”The OT has the Word of YHVH declaring HIMSELF as YHVH. Gen 15.
Quote 4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspringd be.” 6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
7He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”
So, there is YHVH of whom the Word is 'of' and the Word is YHVH also.
My understanding is that YHVH is the name of a corporate God in some contexts and the name of either member of the corporate God in other contexts.
This would not be unlike the name 'Israel' which is the name of a corporate nation in some contexts or the name of an individual member whom the nation is named after…Jacob.
Well all of these quotes from the Bible would suggest that which I already know…that God is the Father and Jesus is His Son and our Lord. Right? You did not show where Jesus is either a part of or God Himself!!I understand that you believe that YHVH is a family name (corporate name??). However, God does not say or suggest that it is. People see what they want into scripture instead of studying the whole Bible. That is why we are to study and not just read. But, I bet you already know that.
jb2u,
You say that the Bible doesn't suggest that Jehovah is a unity? Oh really?Deut 10:17
For Jehovah your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.If for us there is one God and one Lord and they are different persons, Deut 10:17 clearly says that Jehovah is both.
This would not be clear to those who have a monkey on their back with its hands over their eyes, unfortunately.
Jehovah is BOTH…God AND Lord. Amen!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,18:53) Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,12:49) Can you admit that the Shema statement alone as originally written, does not give you enough information to decide if YHVH is one person or one set?
What? Kathi, I thought you believed the Father and Son were two completely different Almighty God beings, who worked together as a unity. Are you now suggesting they are two “persons” in one “being” – like the traditional Trinitarians believe?How many BEINGS do you believe make up God Almighty, Kathi?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2013,12:49) The OT has the Word of YHVH declaring HIMSELF as YHVH. Gen 15.
The OT also makes it seem as if Moses was talking to YHWH Himself in the burning bush……. but we know that it was an angel of God – even though Moses addressed that angel as “God”.The OT makes it seem as if Jacob wrestled with God Himself, but we find out later that it was really an angel OF God, right?
The OT has Moses speaking first person while he lists the things HE did, and will do, for Israel – as if Moses actually was YHWH, right?
And what do you make of this passage, Kathi?
Judges 2
1 The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?Is this “angel OF YHWH” actually YHWH Himself? He sure talks like he is YHWH, doesn't he? After all, WHO is the one who actually made a covenant with Israel? YHWH? Or one of His angels? Who swore to the forefathers of Israel that He would give them the land of the Canaanites? YHWH? Or one of His angels?
Kathi, these are the kinds of SPECKS that t8 was talking about. You are endlessly searching for specks such as these to prove Jesus is God Almighty. But in your tireless search, you consistently gloss right over the many PLANKS that CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN his and our God, Jehovah.
Mike,
They are two persons who are of the same nature and who are united as one authority. Together they always have been and always will be…the almighty eternal unity together with their Spirit.jb2u,
I believe you did not answer this or maybe I missed it. Please answer this:Can you prove that Jesus is not the only begotten God the Son? Can you prove that Jesus is not claiming to be God the Son? I am not asking you to prove that Jesus isn't God the Father.
Mike,
you asked:Quote And what do you make of this passage, Kathi?
Judges 2
1 The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?Is this “angel OF YHWH” actually YHWH Himself? He sure talks like he is YHWH, doesn't he? After all, WHO is the one who actually made a covenant with Israel? YHWH? Or one of His angels? Who swore to the forefathers of Israel that He would give them the land of the Canaanites? YHWH? Or one of His angels?
I believe that the 'angel of YHWH' here is the Word…the Lord of lords…YHVH, the Word.
Regarding t8's use of 'specks' and 'planks,' I believe is a most confusing comparison. The true understanding of the scripture is all as valuable and weighty whether a seemingly small fact or a large fact. They all work together and cannot be added to or subtracted from.
Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2013,11:17) Quote (david @ April 04 2013,10:44) Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2013,02:34) Quote (david @ April 03 2013,12:11) Terrarica, that's not what I'm doing here. How would you answer my question: does it seem to you that the “true teachers” kerwin speaks of should be teaching the same things? Or, would the true teachers teach different things, based on location, preference, opinion, tradition, etc?
DavidYes I will answer you :
First the only truth we have is the scriptures,so all or any that says to follow the truth would do it in according to the scriptures truth right
YesNow we have to look at why the truth to some may not be the same ;
1) personal interest
2) greed ,
3) the love of self gloryso looking at what it takes to be true in truth before God almighty,it would take :self sacrifice ,guiding yourself by humility to make the glory of God and his son more important than your own ,the glory of them being the full truth,
Also accepting that we are nothing ,and that the scriptures is all we have to become closer to our creator,and we should not try to show others in our ego that we are something that they are not ,because we all receive from God according to our devotion to him .
The teachers should understand that he does not own the spirit of truth that comes from God through Christ ,and so any disciples he make it as to be made for God s glory not his own,
If I miss something ,remind me ,
Hi terr,So, is that a yes? The “true teachers” kerwin spoke of should be teaching the same things–?
Davidyes, and should be all in scriptures ,if it is not their must be a reason and we should find out what that reason is ,
Terr, and kerwin,Do you believe there are any people throughout the world all preaching the same thing?
I would think the “true teachers” kerwin spoke of would be teaching the same things, for if they taught opposing things, some of them would not be teaching truth, and hence not be true teachers.
So, who are these people and what do they teach or believe?
Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2013,05:50) Quote (david @ April 04 2013,10:49) Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,07:38) Quote (david @ April 03 2013,11:54) Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2013,04:51) Quote (david @ April 02 2013,10:17) Does it not seem to all, that true Christians around the world, should generally believe the same things?
David,They will come to learn the one true gospel. The true teachers of God will teach it. They are the good fish.
Ok, then does it seem that the “true teachers” should all be teaching the same things?
David,The good teachers teach the same truth though they do have differences of opinions. For example Paul and Barnabus over Mark.
But Paul and barnabus over mark, was not a belief or Christian teaching. It was a differenc elf opinion really.I prefer blue. You think green is nicer. Doesn't matter.
God burns people in hellfire for eternity. No he doesn't.
Having sex with same gender is acceptable to God. No, it isn't.
God is unknowable impersonal mysterious trinity. No he isn't.These things matter and one teaching one, and one teaching the other means that one is definitely wrong, and the other is right, whereas one preferring blue over green is a matter of preference.
So, do you think that true teachers would not all be teaching e same things?
David,There are teachers that are bad fish and so teach what is not true. Even those that teach what is true but do not do it are bad fish. They are still in the net that is the kingdom of heaven.
There are also good fish that lack knowledge and so teach what they should not teach.
Hi kerwin. See last question in my post that you quoted:“So, do you think that true teachers would not all be teaching e same things?”
What do you think kerwin?
To some degree there needs to be enough grace to realise that even a true teacher can make mistakes. But I think the difference between a true teacher and a false one is not one of mistakes, but one of ultimate deception verses one of ultimate light.
A false teacher is false because their heart is not right. They have selfish ambition, or think they are a god or some kind of star. Whereas a person who is humble, loves God first, loves people as themselves, and teaches what he knows, will make mistakes from time to time, but should ultimately have good things to teach. They would also admit that they do not know some things, and if they were wise would not venture into territory that they do not know anything about.
I like what Paul said. He says things that God says and also says things that he says as one trusted by God. He also calls himself a wretched man and is aware of his many shortcomings.
We do not judge truth by how many are united behind a cause or philosophy. If that was the case, then Hitler Youth could be the truth or the Mormons. There are many lies that form the foundations of organisations that are one in purpose. This is not the test of something that comes from God.
Now it was said by our brother Paul that the time would come when many would draw men away from Christ and unto themselves. This we have seen, and this seems to be the norm. In such times, we need to be on guard and put on the full armor that is available to us.
Quote (david @ April 08 2013,11:44) Quote (kerwin @ April 05 2013,05:50) Quote (david @ April 04 2013,10:49) Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2013,07:38) Quote (david @ April 03 2013,11:54) Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2013,04:51) Quote (david @ April 02 2013,10:17) Does it not seem to all, that true Christians around the world, should generally believe the same things?
David,They will come to learn the one true gospel. The true teachers of God will teach it. They are the good fish.
Ok, then does it seem that the “true teachers” should all be teaching the same things?
David,The good teachers teach the same truth though they do have differences of opinions. For example Paul and Barnabus over Mark.
But Paul and barnabus over mark, was not a belief or Christian teaching. It was a differenc elf opinion really.I prefer blue. You think green is nicer. Doesn't matter.
God burns people in hellfire for eternity. No he doesn't.
Having sex with same gender is acceptable to God. No, it isn't.
God is unknowable impersonal mysterious trinity. No he isn't.These things matter and one teaching one, and one teaching the other means that one is definitely wrong, and the other is right, whereas one preferring blue over green is a matter of preference.
So, do you think that true teachers would not all be teaching e same things?
David,There are teachers that are bad fish and so teach what is not true. Even those that teach what is true but do not do it are bad fish. They are still in the net that is the kingdom of heaven.
There are also good fish that lack knowledge and so teach what they should not teach.
Hi kerwin. See last question in my post that you quoted:“So, do you think that true teachers would not all be teaching e same things?”
What do you think kerwin?
David,There are both true teachers and false teachers in the kingdom at this time. The true teachers either teach what is true or are just students that are seeking the truth and sharing as they learn. There is one God who speaks one truth.
Quote (david @ April 08 2013,11:42) Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2013,11:17) Quote (david @ April 04 2013,10:44) Quote (terraricca @ April 04 2013,02:34) Quote (david @ April 03 2013,12:11) Terrarica, that's not what I'm doing here. How would you answer my question: does it seem to you that the “true teachers” kerwin speaks of should be teaching the same things? Or, would the true teachers teach different things, based on location, preference, opinion, tradition, etc?
DavidYes I will answer you :
First the only truth we have is the scriptures,so all or any that says to follow the truth would do it in according to the scriptures truth right
YesNow we have to look at why the truth to some may not be the same ;
1) personal interest
2) greed ,
3) the love of self gloryso looking at what it takes to be true in truth before God almighty,it would take :self sacrifice ,guiding yourself by humility to make the glory of God and his son more important than your own ,the glory of them being the full truth,
Also accepting that we are nothing ,and that the scriptures is all we have to become closer to our creator,and we should not try to show others in our ego that we are something that they are not ,because we all receive from God according to our devotion to him .
The teachers should understand that he does not own the spirit of truth that comes from God through Christ ,and so any disciples he make it as to be made for God s glory not his own,
If I miss something ,remind me ,
Hi terr,So, is that a yes? The “true teachers” kerwin spoke of should be teaching the same things–?
Davidyes, and should be all in scriptures ,if it is not their must be a reason and we should find out what that reason is ,
Terr, and kerwin,Do you believe there are any people throughout the world all preaching the same thing?
I would think the “true teachers” kerwin spoke of would be teaching the same things, for if they taught opposing things, some of them would not be teaching truth, and hence not be true teachers.
So, who are these people and what do they teach or believe?
Davidtheir is a difference between someone that teaches what he as learn from others within an define congregation ,(their are many likes around the world) they are called sects,they have their own agenda ,now if you talk about the likes of the 7000 thousands, that Elijah did not even know they existed ,and yet they did exist and they on their own DID NOT BENT THEIR KNEES TO BAAL (false gods)
LET MAKE IT CLEAR GOD AND CHRIST DO NOT SAVE CHURCHES ,CONGREGATIONS ,BUT SOULS BECAUSE IT IS THE SOUL OF MEN THAT WILL STAND BEFORE THE THRONE OF JUDGMENT ALONE ,NO FRIENDS,NO FAMILY MEMBERS,NO ONE BUT YOURSELF ,FOR THE THINGS YOU HAVE DONE OR NOT DONE THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE ,
SO RELIGION ,IS A FALSE SCREEN ,THAT MAKES YOU FIND CONFORT IN THE NUMBERS BUT NOT IN GOD,
FIND TRUST IN MEN RATHER THAN IN GOD ,JESUS SAID IT IS NOT ALL THAT SAYS ,LORD,LORD THAT WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM………BUT ONLY ……………..THE ONCE…………….(IT DOES NOT SAY THE GROUP,THE CHURCH,THE CONGREGATION,RIGHT IT DOES NOT EVEN SAYS THE ONES THAT TEACHES)WHY???
Quote (Lightenup @ April 07 2013,18:03) 2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Kathi, in the scripture you posted, WHO IS “GOD”? And is Jesus distinguished as someone OTHER THAN “God” in that verse? YES or NO?Quote (Lightenup @ April 07 2013,18:09) jb2u,
You say that the Bible doesn't suggest that Jehovah is a unity? Oh really?Deut 10:17
For Jehovah your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
And?The ONE person, Jehovah, is truly a God over other gods, and a Lord over other lords.
I'm not seeing any “unity” here.
Artaxerxes is called “the King of kings”, right? And Jesus is called “the King of kings and Lord of lords”, right?
Does that mean the being of Jesus is really a “unity” of Jesus and Artaxerxes?
Of course not. Nor would you ever in your wildest dreams imagine such a thing based on the fact that Jesus is both a King over other kings AND a Lord over other lords, right?
Well, isn't Jehovah (the Father alone) a God of other gods? YES. Isn't Jehovah (the Father alone) a Lord of other lords? YES.
So tell us once again how the statement that the Father is both of these things implies some “unity”………….
Quote (Lightenup @ April 07 2013,18:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2013,18:53)
1. The OT also makes it seem as if Moses was talking to YHWH Himself in the burning bush……. but we know that it was an angel of God – even though Moses addressed that angel as “God”.2. The OT makes it seem as if Jacob wrestled with God Himself, but we find out later that it was really an angel OF God, right?
3. The OT has Moses speaking first person while he lists the things HE did, and will do, for Israel – as if Moses actually was YHWH, right?
And what do you make of this passage, Kathi?
Judges 2
1 The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?4. Is this “angel OF YHWH” actually YHWH Himself? He sure talks like he is YHWH, doesn't he? After all, WHO is the one who actually made a covenant with Israel? YHWH? Or one of His angels? Who swore to the forefathers of Israel that He would give them the land of the Canaanites? YHWH? Or one of His angels?
Mike,
They are two persons who are of the same nature and who are united as one authority. Together they always have been and always will be…the almighty eternal unity together with their Spirit.
Hi Kathi,Would you mind actually ADDRESSING the points I made? (I've numbered them 1-4 for you. Note that #4 is multiple points in one.)
I ask because, instead of addressing my points, you just made a blanket statement that no scripture actually supports.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 07 2013,18:26) I believe that the 'angel of YHWH' here is the Word…the Lord of lords…YHVH, the Word.
My bad. I see you did address one of my points. (I usually address the posts AS I'm reading them in chronological order – and so I answered before seeing this later post of yours.)Okay, so you think this “Angel OF YHWH” is actually “YHWH the Son”?
Didn't you once tell me that Jesus is NOT an angel of God? I'm confused.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 07 2013,18:26) Regarding t8's use of 'specks' and 'planks,' I believe is a most confusing comparison. The true understanding of the scripture is all as valuable and weighty whether a seemingly small fact or a large fact. They all work together and cannot be added to or subtracted from.
Perhaps this will help demonstrate t8's thinking on “specks” and “planks”, Kathi:Deuteronomy
29:2 Moses proclaimed to all Israel as follows: “You have seen all that the Lord did in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, all his servants, and his land.29:3 Your eyes have seen the great judgments, those signs and mighty wonders.
29:4 But to this very day the Lord has not given you an understanding mind, perceptive eyes, or discerning ears!
29:5 I have led you through the desert for forty years. Your clothing has not worn out nor have your sandals deteriorated.
29:6 You have eaten no bread and drunk no wine or beer – all so that you might know that I am the Lord your God!
What?
MOSES is “YHWH your God”?Now Kathi, we could take this SPECK and run with it. We could search the scriptures tirelessly for other little SPECKS we could twist into saying Moses is God. (As you know from what I've already shown you, there are quite a few of those “Moses is God” SPECKS, right?)
OR………………………
We could use our God-given common sense, and compare that SPECK to the VAST MAJORITY of the scriptures that concern Moses. And you and I both know from that vast majority that these few little SPECKS don't amount to anything at all when compared to the PLANK of scriptures that concern Moses and his relationship with his God, right?
Now, take what you've learned here, and go do the same with the scriptures that concern Jesus and his relationship with his and our God, Jehovah.
Stop searching out SPECKS while ignoring the PLANKS, Kathi.
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