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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,12:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2011,20:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,11:33) The Bible teaches there is “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND NONE BESIDE HIM OR LIKE HIM”!
Yeah, that's true Keith. Remind me, WHO, SPECIFICALLY do the scriptures say that One IS?
mike
MikeI believe they are One, even Jesus said so. But you have to have or believe in “other gods” to fit your theoloy don't you?
WJ
Yes Keith,Scripture DOES say they are “one”. But it says some of us will also be “one” with them, right? How does being “one” mean Jesus is God Almighty but the rest of them won't be? It doesn't make any sense, and it is one of the most frequently used “proof texts”. I don't get it.
And I didn't see the words “THE FATHER” in your answer. Why not?
Like I asked Jack, if Jesus said THE FATHER was the only true God, then why don't you believe him, Keith? 
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,12:26) Mike It should be enough for you that he was co-creator with the Father as the Word that was with God and was God in John 1:1-3.
God alone made all things THROUGH Jesus. Otherwise the prayer in Acts 4 wouldn't make much sense.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2011,20:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,12:26) Mike It should be enough for you that he was co-creator with the Father as the Word that was with God and was God in John 1:1-3.
God alone made all things THROUGH Jesus. Otherwise the prayer in Acts 4 wouldn't make much sense.mike
MikeWhat does that mean “By or Through” Jesus? Is he some kind of a funnel? Is he just an empty vessel?
Please explain how Jesus did not have a part in the creating of all things since it was created for him and nothing came into being without him?
Why the language By or Through? If only the Father did the creating, why attribute any part of it to Jesus at all?
Especially since Paul attributed the creation to the work of his own hands. Heb 1:10
What about scriptures that says YHVH “alone”, “by himself” did the creating? Do you think the Apostles didn't know those scritpures? Thats right John put him right next to the Father as God even though he knew the scriptures that says there are no other gods beside him. John 1:1-3
WJ
Keith said;
Quote What does that mean “By or Through” Jesus? Is he some kind of a funnel? Is he just an empty vessel?
Keith,The Greek 'dia' in John 1 and Colossians 1 means that Jesus was the direct agent in creation because there is no other agent mentioned.
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,12:45) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 20 2011,11:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,11:13) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 20 2011,04:36) Mike said to Keith: Quote Keith, is there more than one “powerful ruler” mentioned in the scriptures? Are they all YHVH God Most High?
But they were APPOINTED powerful rulers and not “formed” besides God or “came to be” after Him (Is. 43:10).Right Mike?
Jack
Wrong Jack. Deborah was formed after God Almighty. And she was also an elohim. Scripture says so.mike
No Mike! It says that YHWH “raised up” (quwm) judges (2:16). It does not say that YHWH 'formed' (yatsar) judges.Think Mike! Think!
Jack
So Deborah was the only human being in existence that was formed by someone OTHER THAN God?God formed the universe and EVERYTHING in it.
Think, Jack, think!
mike
God did not create gods in the sense deities Mike. He APPOINTED men to be gods in the sense of representatives. Men created deities (gods) in their own imaginations which means that they are no deities (gods) at all.Deborah was not “formed” a deity (god) Mike.
You know what Keith and I are saying. You're just creating a smokescreen.
Think Mike think!
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2011,20:48) Scripture DOES say they are “one”. But it says some of us will also be “one” with them, right? How does being “one” mean Jesus is God Almighty but the rest of them won't be? It doesn't make any sense, and it is one of the most frequently used “proof texts”. I don't get it.
MikeListen to your words… “But it says some of us will also be “one” with them, right? “
“WE WILL BE ONE WITH THEM.“, do you see it?
If we will be one with them, then that means that Jesus is not part of the “ones that will be one with them” is he?
So when you try to say that our “Oneness with them is the same” and that we are not going to be God Almighty you are speaking a fallacy.
Jesus is on the other side of the oneness because it is Jesus with the Father and the Spirit that is in us and us in them. Not we are in one another. BIG DIFFERENCE!
When Jesus said he and the Father are “One” he proved it by his words works and actions. Now you will say but he claimed that his works were not his and that it was the Father in him that does the works, and while that is true and Jesus on words, he is in no way claiming that he also is not doing the works. For he claims that what he sees the Father do he does.
We cannot make the claim that if you don't believe me for my words then believe me for my works because we can't claim any miraculous works as our own or that we did them. Jesus claims he did them and that they were his works.
Read John 10 and you will see Jesus claims the sheep are his and they hear his voice. We can't claim nor could any mere man claim that Gods people were their own possession. Not to mention Jesus said “NO MAN CAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF HIS (JESUS) HAND”, then later he shows his equality with the Father by saying….
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. “I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Look at the context Mike, can you not see that to the Jews he is making himself equal to God and that is why they wanted to stone him?
Think about His words…
- Jesus claims he is the Good Shepherd that owns his sheep for he says “MY SHEEP hear MY VOICE!
The Hebrews understood that only YHVH was the Good Shepherd that owned Israel.
- Jesus claimed that no man could pluck them out of his hand!
Think about it Mike, that is a statement that only someone equal to God or God himself could make.
- Jesus says that he is the “ONLY” way into the sheepfold!
Once again to stand between the people as the only way into Gods sheepfold was only by him is a claim to equality for only God could choose those that are his. We could never claim that it is only by us that anyone could come to the Father! That would be Idolatry!
- Jesus claims that his sheep have to hear his voice!
This again speaks to the ownership of Gods people.
- Jesus said he was the one that gives them eternal life!
This is a claim that Israel had never heard from any prophet or man. Who could give eternal life but God?
- Then it seems that Jesus keeps dropping bigger bombshells as he goes when he claims that no man takes his life but he lays it down on his own and that he will take it again! This is showing his independence of the Father. The Father didn't lay his life down, Jesus did. So therefore he had the power to take it again.
He is claiming that he can conquer death.
- Then in the same breath when he says the Father is greater than all he says, “I and my Father are One“
Man no wonder they wanted to stone him. He says the Father is greater than all and then says he and the Father are one.
I am convinced that anyone with an open mind who reads the gospel of John with and open heart and mind cannot come up with any other conclusion other than Jesus is God or at least is equal to the Father in nature meaning they are One.
Not to mention all the other claims Jesus made like the scriptures are about him, and he and the Father will make their abode with us, and he will be with us to the end of the world, and all authority and power is given him, and all things are in his hands, and that if you have seen him you have seen God, and that the Holy Spirit takes from him and gives to us, and that he would send the Holy Spirit, and that he is the Baptizer of the Spirit and that he would raise the dead, and come again and receive us unto himself, and on and on it goes.
Blessings Keith
WJ wrote:
Quote We cannot make the claim that if you don't believe me for my words then believe me for my works because we can't claim any miraculous works as our own or that we did them. Jesus claims he did them and that they were his works. 
WJ instructed Mikeboll:
Quote Read John 10 and you will see Jesus claims the sheep are his and they hear his voice. We can't claim nor could any mere man claim that Gods people were their own possession. Not to mention Jesus said “NO MAN CAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF HIS (JESUS) HAND”, then later he shows his equality with the Father by saying…. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. “I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Look at the context Mike, can you not see that to the Jews he is making himself equal to God and that is why they wanted to stone him?
Think Mike think!
WJ told Mike to think:
Quote Jesus claimed that no man could pluck them out of his hand! Think about it Mike, that is a statement that only someone equal to God or God himself could make.
Yeah Mike! Think!Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 21 2011,06:47) Francis Said Quote The debate over Hebrews 1:8 is WHETHER OR NOT your tranlsation is correct. So just like above, you can't use your translation to PROVE that your translation is correct!!! I'll repeat it because it is worht repeating:
you can't use your translation to PROVE that your translation is correct To argue like that is to argue in circles… to beg the question.
I'm not arguing in such a way, because I have been giving you what I feel is evidence that demonstrates that the English Translators have it correct. I'm not arguing that “elohim” means God because “elohim” means God. I'm arguing that “elohim” means God in Hebrews 1:8 because of this and that and this.
Now.. you were on the right track when you tried to justify your translation of “elohim” into “leader” earlier. But the moment you started to argue in circles… begging the question… as you just did above… you lost focus and got confused.
This is a debate fallacy that i call the “Knife comment”.
Its found in the debate errors thread.ITs when a poster basically claims in a murder trail example as “we have the KNIFE, I rest my case” without proving if the knife has DNA evidence, or who does it belong to, or how can you assume that this wife killed the deceased.
So its a claim without any warrants or substances to prove thier point.
Mike typically does this alot.
SF,Yeah Mike does that the “knife comment” alot. He assumes the NET “Bible” translation of Isaiah 43:10 is correct and then says, “The scripture says” even when the NET's own footnote indicates how the inspired text actually reads. Instead of saying to himself, “Now why did these morons insert the word “outlive” in the text and then give the true reading which is “there will not be”?
And he pits Daniel B. Wallace against the seventy Jewish scholars that Jesus and the Apostles invoked.
Mike's biggest problem is that he does not THINK. He is ready to post anything and everything that he can use to keep his head above water.
KJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,12:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,12:26) Mike It should be enough for you that he was co-creator with the Father as the Word that was with God and was God in John 1:1-3.
God alone made all things THROUGH Jesus. Otherwise the prayer in Acts 4 wouldn't make much sense.mike
The Father whom you claim is YOUR God blatantly contradicts you!Quote 8 But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Think Mike! You are contradicting the One you claim is YOUR God.THINK for Pete's sake!
Jack
Acts 4 NIV
24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
“‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.’27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
Read it and weep, Jack. They prayed to GOD. They said GOD made the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING IN THEM. Hmmm…….is Jesus one of the things that is “in them”?
But were they speaking of Jesus as this “Sovereign Lord”? Apparently not, for they go on to say that THIS Lord spoke through David ABOUT his SERVANT, Jesus…………..His anointed one. And they prayed all this to GOD………….THROUGH His SERVANT Jesus.
Now, WHO CREATED EVERYTHING?
Jack, I'm about to start ignoring you. I'll give you this ONE chance:
Does having the title “elohim” applied to one in scripture ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY mean that one is either “God Almighty” or a “false god”?
It is a YES or NO question, Jack. It is SCRIPTURALLY PROVEABLE. So either answer it WITH A “YES” OR A “NO”, or I will spam this same question following every post in which you mention me.
You guys don't want to actually address this issue. And I'm getting sick of it being avoided.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2011,08:04) Mike Listen to your words… “But it says some of us will also be “one” with them, right? “
“WE WILL BE ONE WITH THEM.”, do you see it?
If we will be one with them, then that means that Jesus is not part of the “ones that will be one with them” is he?
Yes Keith,Great point! And since “WE” will not be God Almighty or a member of the “Godhead”, then we will be one with “THEM” in the same way that Jesus is one with “HIM”.
And if the “WAY” we are “one with THEM” doesn't mean WE will be God Almighty, then the way Jesus is “one with HIM” doesn't mean JESUS is God Almighty, DOES IT?
Keith, DIRECTLY ADDRESS THIS ONE SINGLE POINT. I will not discuss one other thing with you in this thread until you do.
ADDRESS MY POINTS, GUYS! This is getting old.
peace and love,
mikeSF said to Mike:
Quote So far your Claiming that I find the Netnotes Absolute, which is not true, BUT you are. Which i will explain in a bit.
Mike clings to the NET notes like a drowning man holds on to the life preserver. This is how Mike survives. That's all Mike does here is survive.Mike's treatment of isaiah 43:10 is anathema. God said that no other deities were formed besides Him and that none came to be after Him. Therefore, Jesus Christ was not “begotten” in the sense that Mike thinks for He is deity and no deity was formed besides God or came to be after him.
This thread was started months ago to challenge Mike's view that Christ as “begotten” is a lesser deity. But there are no deities besides of after God. None! Zilch! Nada!
The Roo with the brew
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 21 2011,17:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,12:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,12:26) Mike It should be enough for you that he was co-creator with the Father as the Word that was with God and was God in John 1:1-3.
God alone made all things THROUGH Jesus. Otherwise the prayer in Acts 4 wouldn't make much sense.mike
The Father whom you claim is YOUR God blatantly contradicts you!Quote 8 But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Think Mike! You are contradicting the One you claim is YOUR God.THINK for Pete's sake!
Jack
hi koo jrread this
;Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a(Jesus) sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee(Jesus) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;it is different for pete sake what kind of bible do you use???
Pierre
Pierre wrote:
Quote hi koo jr read this
;Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a(Jesus) sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee(Jesus) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;it is different for pete sake what kind of bible do you use???
Pierre
Even in the “bible” you give the Father addresses the Son as “God.” The word “Jesus” is not in any of the manuscripts.Quote But to the Son He says, Your throne O God is forever and ever. A sceptre of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.”
It does NOT say that Jesus is God's scepter. The Father calls Jesus “God” and says that righteousness is HIS scepter.If the Father is YOUR God as you claim you won't argue with what He said.
Roo Jr.
SF said:
Quote But ALL THIS TIME, WJ, Jack, Francis and I have all made claims in reference to Context, and by the fact that not all who were called elohim didnt nessarily make them a God, just like the Molten Calf that Israel worshipped was never a GOD to begin with. These are the ORGINAL claims and arguements that we have been lead astray from.
Mike has completely lost his ability to distinguish how the word “elohim” is used in a given context. He fails to grasp in Isaiah 43:10 God was saying that no other deities were “formed” besides God or that “came to be” after Him.Mike thinks that the APPOINTMENT of others as “leaders” or “judges” (elohim) solves his dilemna.
KJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2011,05:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,18:52) And you have yet to answer about Deborah, elohim of Israel. Was she a “false god”? Was she God Almighty?
No because she is a mortal human being and not ” a god” at all. Context says she is “elohim” (little e) and if elohim can also mean Judge (which it does) then it should be translated as Judge. Now if the context said they were bowing down to her and offiering sacrifices and worshipping her then she would be an “idol” or “false god”.Context dictates why the translators translated it a certain way. You can't seem to get that.
WJ
Keith,The context means “judge” as you say for 2:16 says that the Lord “raised up judges.” In 5:7 Deborah said, “I arose.”
Deborah acknowledged that God raised her up as a judge and did not “form” her as a deity.
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,20:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 21 2011,08:04) Mike Listen to your words… “But it says some of us will also be “one” with them, right? “
“WE WILL BE ONE WITH THEM.”, do you see it?
If we will be one with them, then that means that Jesus is not part of the “ones that will be one with them” is he?
Yes Keith,Great point! And since “WE” will not be God Almighty or a member of the “Godhead”, then we will be one with “THEM” in the same way that Jesus is one with “HIM”.
And if the “WAY” we are “one with THEM” doesn't mean WE will be God Almighty, then the way Jesus is “one with HIM” doesn't mean JESUS is God Almighty, DOES IT?
Keith, DIRECTLY ADDRESS THIS ONE SINGLE POINT. I will not discuss one other thing with you in this thread until you do.
ADDRESS MY POINTS, GUYS! This is getting old.
peace and love,
mike
MikeWhy are you shouting?
The answer is “Yes” because we know that all the Attributes and Characteristics that makes God, God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit share.
Context says that Jesus is God. Because Jesus dwells in every believer all over the world and hears their prayers and answers them all at the same time. Because by Jesus the entire universe is held together. Because Jesus is sitting in the throne of God with all authority and power and everything being made subject to him and that by the word of his power all things are upheld.
Because nothing came into being without him and all things were made by him and for him.
Because Jesus is not just a light but the Light that shines on everyman. Because Jesus is the Way, the Truth and The Life.
Because Jesus is the Eternal life that was with the Father in eternity before the beginning of all things.
Knowing all this in scripture if Jesus is not “God” since you believe in other gods, then what is he Mike? Please don't say he is the Son of God because you need to show how that term is antithetical to the word God.
Please don't just say he is not God Almighty, because there are no scriptures that say he is not God Almighty and because you have to prove what God Almighty means and then show us how Jesus is not God Almighty.
Tell us Mike at this time how Jesus is not God Almighty?
Show us scripturally how Jesus is not acting out the role of “God Almighty” and then explain how any being can play the role of God Almighty unless he is God Almighty??
I have answered you again now please answer me.
Now while you are working on that then please explain this comment…
Great point! And since “WE” will not be God Almighty or a member of the “Godhead”, then we will be one with “THEM” in the same way that Jesus is one with “HIM”
So are we ever going to have all authority and power and sit in the Fathers throne?
Is every knee going to bow to us confessing us as Lord?
Are we going to be dwelling in the hearts of all believers or be the Head of the Body?
Are we ever going to be The Life and Light of all men?
Will we ever be the “Only Begotten Son of God”?
Will we be the King of his Kingdom forever?
Will we be the Judge of all at the Bema seat?
If we are not going to be like him in all those things and many more then your statement…”we will be one with “THEM” in the same way that Jesus is one with “HIM” is not true is it Mike?
Blessings Keith
- Jesus claims he is the Good Shepherd that owns his sheep for he says “MY SHEEP hear MY VOICE!
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