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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,17:53) Hi TC,
So where in the bible does God plainly teach trinity?
If it is not in the bible why do you teach it.
Have you greater knowledge than God?
Nick,No I do not have greater knowledge than God. That is why I do not question the Scriptures.
You never have answers, only questions. Do you think that helps your case any?
TC27
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,19:24) Hi TC,
Then why is trinity your first answer?
It is not written
Nick,I can understand why you have doubts if the actual word is not in the Bible; however you are too stuck on a word for you to actually see the truth. Jesus was exalted to the highest place as it says in Philippians. Therefore, he is equal to God. So, if he is equal to God then do we have two Gods? NO. It also says in the passage that he made himself a man. Could a lesser being than God have a choice to be human? NO. You just can't see simple Scripture.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,01:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,19:24) Hi TC,
Then why is trinity your first answer?
It is not written
Nick,I can understand why you have doubts if the actual word is not in the Bible; however you are too stuck on a word for you to actually see the truth. Jesus was exalted to the highest place as it says in Philippians. Therefore, he is equal to God. So, if he is equal to God then do we have two Gods? NO. It also says in the passage that he made himself a man. Could a lesser being than God have a choice to be human? NO. You just can't see simple Scripture.
TC27
The word trinity not being in the bible is not his point there is no mention of the practice of believing in the trinity. There are several places in the bible where God has put his favor on a man and that man may have done miracles and God may have called them wonderful names because he loved them but every single one of these men referred to God Almighty as a single personal being.Not once has anyone in the bible referred to God as multiple persons. You will not find one prophet say “thus say the lords”
Jesus told you to pray to the Father and then taught you what to say and in that prayer he tells you to say to the Father “Yours is the kingdom, and the power and the Glory, Amen.
He didn't say “ours”
He called Heaven His Fathers house he didn't say in my house I have many mansions.
Jesus did not have a choice to whether to come here. The scripture says “God sent” Jesus said he followed the commands of his Father. Who commands God?
If you say some being is equal to God you do believe that there are 2 gods because equality only applies to 2 or more comparisons therefore believing that Jesus is equal to God means you believe that there are at least 2 Gods and that is a sin.
TC27…….. 1 Cor 15 sure does not show Jesus had equality with GOD and even Jesus Said that GOD was greater then Him. You have bought into the Lie that Jesus is a GOD and above all objects of worship, as 2Ths 2 says. ONE thing for sure, if GOD deludes a person to believe something they certainly will believe it, and even kill for there belief as John Calvin the murder did, as well as the Catholic and Protestants have done even in our very own times. We are told to come out of those false teaching or we recieve the plagues they produce in our lives. IMO
peace and love……………..gene
Quote (Gene @ July 03 2009,08:04) TC27…….. 1 Cor 15 sure does not show Jesus had equality with GOD and even Jesus Said that GOD was greater then Him. You have bought into the Lie that Jesus is a GOD and above all objects of worship, as 2Ths 2 says. ONE thing for sure, if GOD deludes a person to believe something they certainly will believe it, and even kill for there belief as John Calvin the murder did, as well as the Catholic and Protestants have done even in our very own times. We are told to come out of those false teaching or we recieve the plagues they produce in our lives. IMO peace and love……………..gene
Gene,John 1:1 says:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.”
The passage later goes on to say that the Word became flesh. Who became flesh? Jesus. Who is the Word? Jesus. Who does the verse say God is? The Word. So who is Jesus? God.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,04:08) Quote (Gene @ July 03 2009,08:04) TC27…….. 1 Cor 15 sure does not show Jesus had equality with GOD and even Jesus Said that GOD was greater then Him. You have bought into the Lie that Jesus is a GOD and above all objects of worship, as 2Ths 2 says. ONE thing for sure, if GOD deludes a person to believe something they certainly will believe it, and even kill for there belief as John Calvin the murder did, as well as the Catholic and Protestants have done even in our very own times. We are told to come out of those false teaching or we recieve the plagues they produce in our lives. IMO peace and love……………..gene
Gene,John 1:1 says:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.”
The passage later goes on to say that the Word became flesh. Who became flesh? Jesus. Who is the Word? Jesus. Who does the verse say God is? The Word. So who is Jesus? God.
TC27
You misunderstand the scriptures.The scriptures say the Word “became” flesh which would mean the word of God was put in flesh that would not mean that the flesh it was put in was God because God is a spirit.
Jesus was the vessel for the Word of God to come to. The word of God is not Jesus.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God
Bodhitharta said:
Quote You misunderstand the scriptures. The scriptures say the Word “became” flesh which would mean the word of God was put in flesh that would not mean that the flesh it was put in was God because God is a spirit.
Jesus was the vessel for the Word of God to come to. The word of God is not Jesus.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God
Bod,
First of all, I never said that the flesh itself was God. My soul is not the same as my flesh. Jesus Christ was inhabiting the flesh. You twist what I say, so how is everyone suppose to believe that you also do not twist the Scriptures?
You are correct. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I never said it could. But the Bible never says that God cannot inhabit the flesh. The passage from which you refer is talking about resurrection, so you really have no argument.
TC27
bodhitharta said:
Quote Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God bd,
It was Paul who said this. You said that Paul was NOT a prophet. You said he was a liar. Therefore, when he said that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” he lied.thinker
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 04 2009,01:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2009,19:24) Hi TC,
Then why is trinity your first answer?
It is not written
Nick,I can understand why you have doubts if the actual word is not in the Bible; however you are too stuck on a word for you to actually see the truth. Jesus was exalted to the highest place as it says in Philippians. Therefore, he is equal to God. So, if he is equal to God then do we have two Gods? NO. It also says in the passage that he made himself a man. Could a lesser being than God have a choice to be human? NO. You just can't see simple Scripture.
TC27
Hi TC,
Doubts?
What is not in the bible is not of faith.What is not of faith is of sin.
You are the one who has to choose as our foundations are dug deep and on the teachings of Jesus.
reading the last few pages of this thread, I see a lot of unanswered questions. Antitrinitarians need to answer these questions in order to logically continue the debate. TC's posts in general have been answered by questions, not logical answers.
And while you're at it, please explain to me how Jesus did not claim to be God in the following verses:
John 14: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father
seems pretty clear to me
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”
how can you even question this one? I'm sure you'll find a way
John 14:11 “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” [33] “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
This was right after Jesus said “I and the Father are one” Obviously, the Jews, to whom he was speaking, and who had a better understanding of the conversation than we do, understood that Jesus was claiming to be God, something they obviously do not take lightly.
So what are you going to do with these passages? There are only three possibilities.
1. Jesus was who he claimed to be: God
2. Jesus was lying. He just claimed to be God to get a following
3. He was crazy. He honestly thought he was God but wasn't.What's it going to be?
Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,11:48) reading the last few pages of this thread, I see a lot of unanswered questions. Antitrinitarians need to answer these questions in order to logically continue the debate. TC's posts in general have been answered by questions, not logical answers. And while you're at it, please explain to me how Jesus did not claim to be God in the following verses:
John 14: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father
seems pretty clear to me
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”
how can you even question this one? I'm sure you'll find a way
John 14:11 “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” [33] “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
This was right after Jesus said “I and the Father are one” Obviously, the Jews, to whom he was speaking, and who had a better understanding of the conversation than we do, understood that Jesus was claiming to be God, something they obviously do not take lightly.
So what are you going to do with these passages? There are only three possibilities.
1. Jesus was who he claimed to be: God
2. Jesus was lying. He just claimed to be God to get a following
3. He was crazy. He honestly thought he was God but wasn't.What's it going to be?
I will answer any question asked but keep in mind I will be responding out the love for God and not to attack or hurt the feelings of anyone for when I speak to you it is out of love because you have chosen to reason with me about God out of your love of God.John 10 (Young's Literal Translation)
34Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
35if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)
36of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say — Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?
Jesus clearly corrected them of the false charge and asserted that he said he was “the son of God” and not God. Also Jesus made it clear to them that those to whom the word of God came they were called gods and he quotes the scripture that says “Ye are gods” So he is saying that if they were called gods he can not be blaspheming for saying he is the son of God because the scripture must stand.
Also saying that I am in the Father and the Father is in me doesn't mean he is the Father or God if it does then we are all literally gods because the scripture also says that Christ is in the believers and God is in all who believe so are we all God who believe?
Do you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Are you the Holy Spirit?
God was with him and Jesus said I am not alone but my Father is with me and he said “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father”
So where did these miracles come from?
Where did the miracles of Moses come from?Hi CB AND WELCOME,
All the verse you quoted speak truth to you but you are not listening.Jesus said he is the Son of God and it was the Jews who misread that meaning too.
He did not say he was God but you agree with the deceived?Jesus is indeed one with the Father but that does not make him the Father God any more than our unity with him makes us God.
The Father was IN HIM reconciling the world to himself[2Cor5.19] so anyone who saw him ALSO saw God in him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:17) Hi CB AND WELCOME,
All the verse you quoted speak truth to you but you are not listening.Jesus said he is the Son of God and it was the Jews who misread that meaning too.
He did not say he was God but you agree with the deceived?Jesus is indeed one with the Father but that does not make him the Father God any more than our unity with him makes us God.
The Father was IN HIM reconciling the world to himself[2Cor5.19] so anyone who saw him ALSO saw God in him.
Nick,
The Jews did not misread Jesus. The Son of God was God in Hebrew culture. Jesus knowing this claimed to be the Son of God. ergo. If Jesus knew that they thought the Son of God was God, then why did He call Himself the Son of God?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB,
You wish to know of their unity?Try Jn 17.21-22
Father and I is two.
I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness.If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?:
Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB,
You wish to know of their unity?Try Jn 17.21-22
Father and I is two.
I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness.If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?:
CB,
Good point. Glad you are here.
thinker
Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,13:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:51) Hi CB,
You wish to know of their unity?Try Jn 17.21-22
Father and I is two.
I'm assuming your point is that, if we can be one with God in the same sense that Jesus can, then Jesus is not God. Jesus uses the most perfect example of one-ness that exists. That does not mean that it is possible for us to attain that kind of one-ness.If Jesus was not claiming to be God when he said “I and the Father are one”, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone him?:
The question is not why did they pick up stones to stone him the question is why did he correct them and tell them that he was not guilty of the assertion and also made it clear to them that he did not say he was God and told themJohn 10:35-37 (New King James Version)
35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;So it is clear that he asserted that he was the Son of God and it is clear he taught them what was in their own scriptures how others were even called gods because the word of God was in them. He is telling them that the scripture cannot be wrong so he did nothing wrong saying less than the scriptures required.
Quote (Country boy @ July 03 2009,15:48) reading the last few pages of this thread, I see a lot of unanswered questions. Antitrinitarians need to answer these questions in order to logically continue the debate. TC's posts in general have been answered by questions, not logical answers. And while you're at it, please explain to me how Jesus did not claim to be God in the following verses:
John 14: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father
seems pretty clear to me
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”
how can you even question this one? I'm sure you'll find a way
John 14:11 “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” [33] “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
This was right after Jesus said “I and the Father are one” Obviously, the Jews, to whom he was speaking, and who had a better understanding of the conversation than we do, understood that Jesus was claiming to be God, something they obviously do not take lightly.
So what are you going to do with these passages? There are only three possibilities.
1. Jesus was who he claimed to be: God
2. Jesus was lying. He just claimed to be God to get a following
3. He was crazy. He honestly thought he was God but wasn't.What's it going to be?
CountryBoy,Amen!
TC27
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