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Nick,
Yes, that verse says that God reconciled the world to himslef in Christ. Yes, I will agree that God was in Christ. However Scripture blatantly says in Titus 2:13 “while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ.” This verse clearly recognized Christ as being God. Just because God was in Christ, does not mean that Christ isn't God.
TC27
Hi TC,
Yes that verse causes some to stumble.But if you are a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings you will find he never taught trinity.
We are seriously warned in 2 Jn to abide in his teachings.Nick,
The WORD trinity is a man made word. I agree with you there. However, the doctrine behind is fully backed by Scripture.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,08:59) Hello everyone! I am new to this site, and I have been reading the conversation about whethor or not Christ is God. I will say this. To deny that Christ is God, is to deny Christianity. There are many places in Scripture that specifically show us that Christ and the Father are one. To deny this is to deny Christ's true identity.
Example # 1:
Isaiah 60:16 states: “You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Titus 1:4 states: “To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
~The key word in these two verses is “Savior.” In the Isaiah verse, God the Almighty is being referred to as Savior. However, Jesus Christ is called Savior in the Titus verse. How then can there be two saviors if there is only one God. This can only mean that Jesus is God because the Bible would otherwise contradict itself. Jesus is God existing in a different person to fulfill a different purpose.
Example # 2:
Genesis 49:24 states: “But his bow remains steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel.”
John 10: 11, 16 states : “I [Jesus] am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”
~ They key word in these passages is “shepherd.” In the John verse, Jesus clearly states that he is the good shepherd and that there is to be only ONE shepherd. However, we see that God is referred to as the Shepherd in Genesis. Either the Bible is lying when it says that there is to be one shepherd, or Jesus is God.Example #3:
Exodus 3:14 states: “God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' This is what you are to say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.' “
John 8:58 states:” 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' “
~ Here we see the key words being “I AM.” God calls himself by the same name in Genesis, that Jesus calls himself in John. Also, if Jesus was fully man and not God at all, how could he possibly have existed before the time of Abraham? The verse in John clearly states that he existed BEFORE the time of Abraham which can only mean he is God because a man would not live that long, especially since we know the human birth of Jesus took place long after the death of Abraham. Jesus existed outside of the human body in which he came to Earth.
These are just a few examples that I pulled together, and there are MANY more in Scripture that support the true identity of Christ, which is God.
TC27
Ypour examples are weak because God calls many people shepards.And also isn't God really the ONLY Saviour as he sent christ as a mercty to you from Him.
Also in your last example you should keep reading because Jesus clearly says that they accused him of Blasphemy for calling himself the Son of God and not God.
I have an out of town guess coming in and I am taking them to dinner at my favorite place but when I return(God willing) I will be more thorough
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,12:13) Nick, The WORD trinity is a man made word. I agree with you there. However, the doctrine behind is fully backed by Scripture.
TC27
Hi TC,
Where did Jesus teach about trinity?
Where did any OT prophet teach of trinity?
Where did any apostle teach that God was a trinity?You will find that none did.
Neither will you find it helps you in relating to God.
At best then it remains an unnecessary speculation and at worst a dangerous heresy.
We are to pull down speculations
Hi TC,
We have all stood where you stand.
Genuine searchers continue to look for truth and you coming here is a sign of that faith.But if you take time to study the bible apart from any denominational influence you will be shocked to find they teach what is not written and because men are used to following their leaders it is hard to question what we took for granted.
Eventually we will meet face to face with the Lord Jesus and if pleasing him matters to you then you do not want to hear him say
” I do not know you”
If I say that I believe in the trinity than God will say to me “I don’t know you” when I meet him face to face?
Which bible is it that we are suppose to study?Quote (Christian Biker @ June 29 2009,16:44) If I say that I believe in the trinity than God will say to me “I don’t know you” when I meet him face to face?
Which bible is it that we are suppose to study?
God will say to you “I do not know you” because you would not have known God because you would have considered God to be Jesus and 2 other persons Jesus said that not everyone who says “lord, lord” shall be save but only those who do the Will of The Father. Jesus said even if you do signs and wonders, cast out demons in his name, heal the sick in his name, he will still call you a worker of iniquity because you have not done the will of The Father it is the Will of The Father that you should Worship Him alone as God because there is no other god besides Him.Jesus said that The Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and those who worship Him worship him in spirit and truth.
Trinitarians diminish the Magnitude of God they say it takes 3 persons of God to do what God has done.
But the question has to be asked of you. If the Father decided to destroy the Son and everything else in the universe who could prevent His Almighty hand but if Jesus wanted to destroy the Father do you think he could?
Answer honestly and remove this from you.
God Bless you, LOve Asana
Quote (Cindy @ June 29 2009,07:03) Quote (thethinker @ June 29 2009,05:11) Georg said: Quote frankandcathy Listen to Bod, so far he has it right.
You say the Holy Spirit has no name, that is correct because, it is God's Holy Spirit.
Have you ever noticed when Paul writes to the churches he gives thanks only to the Father and Jesus Christ?But Bod said:
Quote Don't blame me if the Bible is not consistent the Quran says that it has been tampered with, so which is true can you see the face of God and live or not? Then Bod said:
Quote But thats Paul for you using Guile to great effect. When Jesus quotes the OT he tells you what prophet said it and how it applies Paul was not quoting a Prophet and he doesn't tell you where it came from giving the impression that “God said” Bod claims that the Quran finds fault with the Jewish Scriptures and that Paul used guile in his writings. Yet Georg advises newbies to listen to him. Go figure.
thinker
thinkerYou are a deceiver, and a liar, not to mention a fraud. You include quotes in your post that you know very well I was not referring too; in fact they are from another thread.
HOW DARE YOU?Georg
Georg,
You told frankandcathy to listen to Bod on the subject of the Holy Spirit. But Bod believes that the Bible has been tampered with. His Quran says so. He also believes that paul used guile in his teachings. Therefore, Bod cannot speak with any certainty on any subject from the Scriptures. Frankandcathy should not listen to Bod on any subject and I was obligated to inform them.Since he believes the Scriptures have been tampered then he should burn his Bible and just argue from the Quran alone. Right? Just as you and I argue from Scripture alone then Bod should argue from the Quran alone and stop with his “guile” and pretense.
thinker
Ypour examples are weak because God calls many people shepards.
bodhitharta said to TC27:
Quote And also isn't God really the ONLY Saviour as he sent christ as a mercty to you from Him. Also in your last example you should keep reading because Jesus clearly says that they accused him of Blasphemy for calling himself the Son of God and not God.
bd,
Since you believe that the Scriptures have been tampered with and that Paul used guile in his writings then you cannot know if Jesus claimed to be the Son of God or God or not (not that there is any difference). You should stick to your Quran and stop your pretense that the Jewish scriptures carry any authority. You don't believe the Jewish Scripture so don't invoke them.thinker
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,08:59) Hello everyone! I am new to this site, and I have been reading the conversation about whethor or not Christ is God. I will say this. To deny that Christ is God, is to deny Christianity. There are many places in Scripture that specifically show us that Christ and the Father are one. To deny this is to deny Christ's true identity.
Example # 1:
Isaiah 60:16 states: “You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Titus 1:4 states: “To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
~The key word in these two verses is “Savior.” In the Isaiah verse, God the Almighty is being referred to as Savior. However, Jesus Christ is called Savior in the Titus verse. How then can there be two saviors if there is only one God. This can only mean that Jesus is God because the Bible would otherwise contradict itself. Jesus is God existing in a different person to fulfill a different purpose.
Example # 2:
Genesis 49:24 states: “But his bow remains steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel.”
John 10: 11, 16 states : “I [Jesus] am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”
~ They key word in these passages is “shepherd.” In the John verse, Jesus clearly states that he is the good shepherd and that there is to be only ONE shepherd. However, we see that God is referred to as the Shepherd in Genesis. Either the Bible is lying when it says that there is to be one shepherd, or Jesus is God.Example #3:
Exodus 3:14 states: “God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' This is what you are to say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.' “
John 8:58 states:” 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' “
~ Here we see the key words being “I AM.” God calls himself by the same name in Genesis, that Jesus calls himself in John. Also, if Jesus was fully man and not God at all, how could he possibly have existed before the time of Abraham? The verse in John clearly states that he existed BEFORE the time of Abraham which can only mean he is God because a man would not live that long, especially since we know the human birth of Jesus took place long after the death of Abraham. Jesus existed outside of the human body in which he came to Earth.
These are just a few examples that I pulled together, and there are MANY more in Scripture that support the true identity of Christ, which is God.
TC27
Hello TC27;So while aknowledging “Christ” you ignor what the name means?
Christ means “anointed.” Jesus was the anointed prophet of God, raised from among his brethren.
Two things trinitarians ignore completely.
God anoints men.
God is not anointed.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 28 2009,22:02) Quote (Christian Biker @ June 29 2009,16:44) If I say that I believe in the trinity than God will say to me “I don’t know you” when I meet him face to face?
Which bible is it that we are suppose to study?
God will say to you “I do not know you” because you would not have known God because you would have considered God to be Jesus and 2 other persons Jesus said that not everyone who says “lord, lord” shall be save but only those who do the Will of The Father. Jesus said even if you do signs and wonders, cast out demons in his name, heal the sick in his name, he will still call you a worker of iniquity because you have not done the will of The Father it is the Will of The Father that you should Worship Him alone as God because there is no other god besides Him.Jesus said that The Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and those who worship Him worship him in spirit and truth.
Trinitarians diminish the Magnitude of God they say it takes 3 persons of God to do what God has done.
But the question has to be asked of you. If the Father decided to destroy the Son and everything else in the universe who could prevent His Almighty hand but if Jesus wanted to destroy the Father do you think he could?
Answer honestly and remove this from you.
God Bless you, LOve Asana
Bod,Trinitarians do not claim that God is Jesus. They claim that Jesus is God. Yes, there is a difference. To claim that God is Jesus limits the idea of God to one person, Jesus. However to say that Jesus is God referrs to the fact that the whole of God has a part in it called Jesus. God is God always. Jesus is God always. The Holy Spirit is God always. However you cannot say that God is Jesus always because God exists in more than just Jesus. You word it the way you have to make it seem as though trinitarians limit the power and majesty of God. However, you do not realize that the trinity actually promotes more of God's authority and power than your own beliefs do. For example, to say that there is only one God and that Jesus cannot be God because he was fully man, limits God to the idea that He cannot be more than one person existing in one whole God. However to say that God exists in three persons proves that God can do anything even if it may seem unfathomable to the human being. If God existed outside of time, He also can exist in three persons.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2009,14:10) Hi TC,
Yes that verse causes some to stumble.But if you are a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings you will find he never taught trinity.
We are seriously warned in 2 Jn to abide in his teachings.
Nick,Is that all you can tell me? You say this verse has caused some to stumble, but you do not prove to me why or how it is wrong. I cannot accept “it has caused some to stumble” as a valid argument seeing as it helps you to avoid my point. If you cannot expand on this then I will assume that you do not know how to answer my pioint.
TC27
Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,04:38) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,08:59) Hello everyone! I am new to this site, and I have been reading the conversation about whethor or not Christ is God. I will say this. To deny that Christ is God, is to deny Christianity. There are many places in Scripture that specifically show us that Christ and the Father are one. To deny this is to deny Christ's true identity.
Example # 1:
Isaiah 60:16 states: “You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Titus 1:4 states: “To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
~The key word in these two verses is “Savior.” In the Isaiah verse, God the Almighty is being referred to as Savior. However, Jesus Christ is called Savior in the Titus verse. How then can there be two saviors if there is only one God. This can only mean that Jesus is God because the Bible would otherwise contradict itself. Jesus is God existing in a different person to fulfill a different purpose.
Example # 2:
Genesis 49:24 states: “But his bow remains steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel.”
John 10: 11, 16 states : “I [Jesus] am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”
~ They key word in these passages is “shepherd.” In the John verse, Jesus clearly states that he is the good shepherd and that there is to be only ONE shepherd. However, we see that God is referred to as the Shepherd in Genesis. Either the Bible is lying when it says that there is to be one shepherd, or Jesus is God.Example #3:
Exodus 3:14 states: “God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' This is what you are to say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.' “
John 8:58 states:” 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' “
~ Here we see the key words being “I AM.” God calls himself by the same name in Genesis, that Jesus calls himself in John. Also, if Jesus was fully man and not God at all, how could he possibly have existed before the time of Abraham? The verse in John clearly states that he existed BEFORE the time of Abraham which can only mean he is God because a man would not live that long, especially since we know the human birth of Jesus took place long after the death of Abraham. Jesus existed outside of the human body in which he came to Earth.
These are just a few examples that I pulled together, and there are MANY more in Scripture that support the true identity of Christ, which is God.
TC27
Hello TC27;So while aknowledging “Christ” you ignor what the name means?
Christ means “anointed.” Jesus was the anointed prophet of God, raised from among his brethren.
Two things trinitarians ignore completely.
God anoints men.
God is not anointed.
Paladin,You say that God only anoints men. Correct. Trinitarians do not deny that Christ was fully man. He was fully God AND fully man. So your point does not change anything.
TC27
bodhitharta said:
Quote If the Father decided to destroy the Son and everything else in the universe who could prevent His Almighty hand but if Jesus wanted to destroy the Father do you think he could? bd,
You do not know the Scriptures. Hebrews 1 says that through the Son all things consist which means that He holds the universe together.thinker
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 30 2009,02:14) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 28 2009,22:02) Quote (Christian Biker @ June 29 2009,16:44) If I say that I believe in the trinity than God will say to me “I don’t know you” when I meet him face to face?
Which bible is it that we are suppose to study?
God will say to you “I do not know you” because you would not have known God because you would have considered God to be Jesus and 2 other persons Jesus said that not everyone who says “lord, lord” shall be save but only those who do the Will of The Father. Jesus said even if you do signs and wonders, cast out demons in his name, heal the sick in his name, he will still call you a worker of iniquity because you have not done the will of The Father it is the Will of The Father that you should Worship Him alone as God because there is no other god besides Him.Jesus said that The Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and those who worship Him worship him in spirit and truth.
Trinitarians diminish the Magnitude of God they say it takes 3 persons of God to do what God has done.
But the question has to be asked of you. If the Father decided to destroy the Son and everything else in the universe who could prevent His Almighty hand but if Jesus wanted to destroy the Father do you think he could?
Answer honestly and remove this from you.
God Bless you, LOve Asana
Bod,Trinitarians do not claim that God is Jesus. They claim that Jesus is God. Yes, there is a difference. To claim that God is Jesus limits the idea of God to one person, Jesus. However to say that Jesus is God referrs to the fact that the whole of God has a part in it called Jesus. God is God always. Jesus is God always. The Holy Spirit is God always. However you cannot say that God is Jesus always because God exists in more than just Jesus. You word it the way you have to make it seem as though trinitarians limit the power and majesty of God. However, you do not realize that the trinity actually promotes more of God's authority and power than your own beliefs do. For example, to say that there is only one God and that Jesus cannot be God because he was fully man, limits God to the idea that He cannot be more than one person existing in one whole God. However to say that God exists in three persons proves that God can do anything even if it may seem unfathomable to the human being. If God existed outside of time, He also can exist in three persons.
TC27,
Excellent post. Bod's idea that God cannot become a man is Gnosticism 101.thinker
Paladin said:
Quote God anoints men. God is not anointed.
To All,
Let's not forget that Paladin also believes that God anoints rocks. He has a problem with God anointing God but not with God anointing a rock. Hebrews 1 indeed says that God amointed God,Quote But to the Son he says, “Your throne O God is forever and ever….Therefore God, Your God has anointed You above Your fellows (Heb. 1:8-9) There it is! The Father spoke to the Son calling Him “God” and then said I have “anointed you.” Therefore, God anoints God. This is certainly more preferable than the Paladinian theory that God anoints rocks.
thinker
Thinker ………..You quote “therefore your GOD has anointed you above your FELLOWS, who were the FELLOWS we they GODS also. And if they were his Fellows and were not Gods them neither could He have been a GOD, but was a man the GOD anointed about His fellow men. Why do you ignore what Jesus (PLAINLY) said “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. whats so hard to believe about that. To believe anything else to be anti-Christ . IMO
peace and love to you brother……………………….gene
TC27……….Here is something for you to read and then see what you think about the Murder John Calvin, (OUT OF THE FLAMES) This book is a word for word account of the trial of Michael Servetus , who wrote a article about the error of the trinity, Who Calvin Had burned at the stake and even ordered them to use green wood so his death would be slow and painful. The word for word log of the trial still exists, you should read it and then see what you opinion of the Murder Calvin is. IMO
peace and love…………..gene
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