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Gene,
I introduced three elements in my last post. The first is that the act of sin corrupts the spirit of the man whom commits it. The second is that we inherit the spirit of sin from both male and female ancestors. The third is that complete faith is rewarded by receiving the Spirit of God which cannot be corrupted.
Both Adam and Eve were held responsible for the spirit of man being corrupted as are their descendants who willingly, as opposed to habitual or the like, chose to sin. That is why all men were banned from reentering the Garden of Eden. Those that, like Abraham, believe God are held innocent as faith overcomes all.
This explains both scripture which states “you must be born again” and “the righteous live by faith”.
I hope this clarifies my understanding.
JESUS PREACHED REPENTANCE FOR THE KINGDOM, NOT VICARIOUS ATONEMENT
Matthew 6:10,13, (Luke 11:2), “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. . . . For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.”
It is G-d's earthly kingdom which Jesus preached.
Luke 4:18-19, “. . . he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; . . . heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, . . . sight to the blind, . . . liberty (to) them. . . bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.”
Please notice that nothing is said about belief in Jesus' dying for mankind's sins in order to make vicarious atonement. The word “gospel” here is associated with Judaism's teachings. And it is Judaism that the historical Jesus always taught.
Luke 8:1 (Luke 10:9), “. . . he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of G-d…”
Mark 1:14 (Matthew 4:23) (Matthew 9:35) (Matthew 10:7), “. preaching the gospel of the kingdom of G-d.”
Luke 4:43 (Luke 9:2,11) (Luke 12:31), “. . . I must preach the kingdom of G-d to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.”
Jesus' mission was to preach the good news, the glad tidings, the gospel of the kingdom of G-d. These terms, which Christianity has taken for its meaning of Christology, actually refer to Jesus' preaching of the earthly kingdom of G-d, the Messianic kingdom. There is not one word said about his message being vicarious atonement, because it was not.
Mark 1:15, Mark 6:12, “. . . the kingdom of G-d is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. And they went out, and preached that men should repent.”
Luke 5:32 (Matthew 9:13) (Mark 2:17), “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Matthew 4:17, Matthew 6:33, Matthew 10:7, “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. But seek ye first the kingdom of G-d, and his righteousness;. . . And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
What most Christians fail to realize is that the many of the promises and prophecies of G-d are “conditional.” The Messianic Kingdom was not going to “just” happen; Israel had to merit it as well as her King by rising to her calling as a Holy Nation and a Royal Priesthood. If Israel failed in this regard the Kingdom on Earth would not appear; nor would her King be revealed to the world. Therefore you now better understand the priority of “repentance” in the Kingdom message as found taught by Jesus, John the Immerser, and Peter. Without repentance and a return to obedience to the Commandments of G-d the promises and prophecies of G-d would not be realized by that generation and they were responsible as not only a light to the nations but they were to be the “first fruits” for the others nations of the world in this regard. If Israel failed, all mankind will be deprived of the benefits of the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth.
Answer for yourself: What was Jesus' message? Was it the same as being taught by the vast majority of Christian Churches today who go by his name? Is repentance the heart of the Gospel message you hear or is it just part of a “new member's” class?
The real Kingdom message taught by Jesus was that Jews should repent and return to obedience of the Commandments of G-d, for the Messianic kingdom was coming soon and return to G-d was necessary for acceptance into the kingdom. Basically the Jews, through repentance, was to merit the Kingdom of Heaven, not only for themselves, but by being a Royal Priesthood of such a Kingdom they were to be mediators for the non-Jews coming to G-d. This message is totally within the framework of Judaism as revealed in the Holy Bible.
Jesus did not preach Christology. As surprising as this fact may be, Jesus' preaching was within the confines of Biblical Judaism, as Jews interpret the Jewish religion. Jesus did not preach or teach anything close to the salvation messages taught by the Gentile Churches of today. Once understood, and seen for yourself, this is very problematic for the Christian who is a “thinking believer.”
Link: http://messianicprophecy.netfirms.com/if_jesu…._he.htm
Adam! First I like to say that sin is still in this world. John tells is if we think we do not sin the truth is not in us.
Second I think that the curse of the original sin is still with us. Woman still deliver Children in Labor pain. We still sin.
The difference between the Old Covenant is that Christ paid the ransom for our sinsMar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
And also since we are in the New Covenant and under Christs blood sin is not imputed to us
Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
So to say that there is no atonement for our sins is false…….If you believe that, then you simple don't understand what a ransom is……Jesus died for us so we can live…..
Peace IreneAdam,
If I understand your source correctly then it states pretty much the same thing as I have stated.
Jesus did preach a message of repentance as he clearly stated “repent or perish” but with that message he also gave a way to accompliosh that goal and that way is by living according God's spirit of righteousness that God will give those that believe. The result is forgiveness of your sins.
Adam………..Brother, go to any Jewish Rabbi and ask about the” Kinsmen Redeemer”, and the (LEGAL POWERS) he possessed in settling a debt owed. Then consider this < we have (ALL) sinned, and the sentence was pronounced by GOD upon all sinners , " THE SOUL THAT SINS (IT) SHALL DIE" (PARISH), ALSO SCRIPTURE SAYS (ALL) HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD". So if the penalty for sin is the soul parishes , and GOD does not lie, then how can any who has sinned ever live, because we have (ALL) sinned? Now even if we Repent (turn back) so does that get rid of the consequences of our sins or is there still a price to be payed for the debt we incurred . If i stoled (according to the Law of GOD) and decide to repent is that it?, no it is not it, you must repay your debt in order for Justice to be served and GOD the Judge of all requires that Payment on all sinners, there is no free lunch with GOD concerning sinners it must be atoned for even ancient Israel all knew that. Now if i Stole something and had no means to repay it, the law provides me a way out, a KINSMEN REDEEMER Could step forward (BY THE LAWS OF GOD) and repay my debt right?, Now since the penalty for sin is ETERNAL DEATH (soul Parishes) then how can i pay that without Perishing because if i Parish, i no longer am alive to pay any debt. So Jesus my KINSMEN REDEEMER who had no SIN could Pay it, with HIS LIFE in MY PLACE, a life for a life, and then MY debt was removed from Me. We are all indebted to Jesus as our Kinsmen Redeemer,That is exactly what was(LEGAL, ACCORDING TO GODS LAWS) took place Brother. JESUS IS OUR KINSMEN REDEEMER and not ours only but for the whole world. God has accepted His payment for our Sins and the worlds also. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………………….gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 18 2010,00:23) Hi brother Ed,
Here is wonderful explanation on Myth of Original Sin (taken from the book “Are Men Born Sinners? The Myth of Original Sin” by A. T. Overstreet;“The very idea that men can be born sinners is absurd. It is both a physical and a moral impossibility to be born a sinner.
It is a moral impossibility because men cannot justly be sinners by birth. That men can be sinners and guilty and condemned at birth is morally unthinkable. It is a physical impossibility to be born a sinner because of the nature of sin. Sin is not a substance. It has no physical properties and cannot possibly be passed on physically from one person to another. What is sin? The Bible says, “Sin is the transgression of the law.”
I John 3:4. So, according to the Bible, sin is an act or a choice that transgresses the law of God. It cannot, therefore, be a substance because choice and substance are contradictories. Is a wicked act a substance? Is disobedience, transgressions, lawbreaking, or unrighteousness a substance? Is guilt a substance? No, they are all moral concepts or moral qualities. And it is impossible for them to be transmitted physically.When we speak of sin, we are describing the character of an act. The word sin describes the character of an act as being wicked or wrong.
Sin is no more a substance than friendliness, goodness, or virtue are substances. If sin is a substance that can be transmitted physically, then virtue also must be a substance that can be transmitted physically. And what would be the result if all this were true? Why, sinners would beget sinners, and saints, of course, would beget saints! Sin is not a substance, and we all know that sin is not a substance. Yet learned theologians still maintain the impossible dogma that sin, like some malignant disease, has been passed on physically from Adam to all his descendants. How ridiculous it is to make sin a physical virus, instead of a voluntary and responsible choice. How foolish to speak of men being born sinners! Only in some fantastic science fiction novel might moral character be spoken of as being passed on physically in the bloodstream of man. Moral character, whether holiness or sinfulness, cannot be passed on physically. It is gross
superstition to believe that it can be.”
gallamudi: My path to God has brought me to a very close agreement with your book. I have never read that book but my studies of sin and where it came from and actually what it is were similar.May I ask you a question about sin. I have read all the posts and I have come close but not a clear understanding yet of sin. Could it be that when man first accepted evil or death as a viable truth, that the error of that belief,
though not true, separated God and mans mental communion together and continued down through generations of humanity. You might say the ultimate error of thinking. The ultimate wrong thinking. Man began to believe God was angry with him, which separated him in his mind.
This error of thinking or wrong belief of separation grew over time as man fell further away from God in his mind. God never left man, where would he go, he's everywhere. Mans beliefs in oneness and communion with God were now split into good and error/sin.
Sin never existed in God. Sin must be an error of truth, there was only truth/God in the beginning. So any thoughts or thinking that was not of God was error/sin/a lie/untruth, etc.!
There was no truth avaliable to correct man of his error of thinking. Maybe there never was a true sin it was an error of thinking that God was apart from man. Any thinking apart from the truth is error. They believed incorrectly and passed it down through time until the truth came. Sin the ultimate error of thinking! Food for thought. TK
Hi Sis Irene, brothers Kerwin, Gene and Tim
Greetings to all of you in this New Year. Thanks for all your thought provoking responses on this New thread. In fact I too believe what you all posted above but I am not convinced of what the N.T states especially the Epistles on Original sin and Vicarious atonement. No where in the Hebrew Bible it is stated Original sin exists and because of Adamic sin we are punished and there is also need for Vicarious atonement. It seems Christianity misinterpreted Jesus' death as an atonement for Adamic sin. If it is so why there is still death and curse on this earth even for those believers of vicarious atonement? Why there is still worst agony during child bearing for a woman? I don't think man became sinner because of so called (Adamic) original sin. Man was created by God to choose positive and negative things you can call them as good and evil even before man became sinner. Judaism never accepted this myth of Christianity. Please go through the following links to understand my arguments.
1. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/425317
2. http://www.outreachjudaism.org/original.htm
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
4. http://judaism-now.blogspot.com/2009….in.html
5. http://www.kosherjudaism.org/faq….lang=en
6. http://www.kosherjudaism.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=529Thanks and peace to you all
AdamAdam,
You are arguing against more than one tenet when you argue against the tenet of original sin. The difficulty you thus face is what you state may be true about one but not true about another. Instead of arguing against the tenet of original sin you may instead seek to understand the argument that Scripture makes about why humans are bound to sin and contrast that with the various arguments on original sin. Scripture does declare in Old Testament that all do sin and fall short of the glory of God under the law.
You should also look what the law states about atonement for a sacrifice in the Law of Moses.
The third thing you should look up is God visiting the sins of the fathers on the heads of the children for a number of generations.
Have you considered the possibility that the first death is a temporary state similar to sleep as far as to its application to believers? Have you looked at the Jewish answer to why those credited with righteousness die in the vast majority of cases?
The so called Jews, if they believe God, will say what scripture states.
kerwin, or any one
have you ever wondered what this scripture means?
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
What does it mean, “for as in Adam all die”?
Georg
Georg………..Have you ever looked up the word (IN) in a Dictionary, Try it you will be surprised at its multiple meanings.
peace and love………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 14 2011,03:28) Georg………..Have you ever looked up the word (IN) in a Dictionary, Try it you will be surprised at its multiple meanings. peace and love………………………………….gene
You been listening to Bill Clinton, haven't you?Georg
Georg……….. Another good coup out right? Never wanting to get to true subject matter just twist and shirt the issues, must say you are very good at doing that right?
gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 13 2011,14:33)
Thanks for all your thought provoking responses on this New thread. In fact I too believe what you all posted above but I am not convinced of what the N.T states especially the Epistles on Original sin and Vicarious atonement.Thanks and peace to you all
Adam
Hi Adam,Are you willing to progress in our discussion or are you going to continue
with your 'faulty wording'… 'original sin & vicarious atonement'?
Original sin was the rebellion of Lucifer; not Adam's sin!Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 14 2011,08:37) Georg……….. Another good coup out right? Never wanting to get to true subject matter just twist and shit the issues, must say you are very good at doing that right? gene
I try to learn from the best.Georg
Georg,
When Adam sinned all creation was subject to corruption. I am using “all” in the broad sense since I do not mean the kingdom of heaven.
The passage from Romans 8 below answers your question.
Romans 8:19-21(NIV) reads:
Quote For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
kerwin
My question, I believe, was; “what does it mean, as in Adam all die”?
What it means is, none of us die for our sins now; that does not mean, we don't deserve death.
God cursed all mankind to die for Adams sin, that is why baby's, and little children die, even before they have committed a sin. Would they die for their sins, would they not then be allowed to live until they sin?
But this is how God has worked it out to save all of us with “ONE” sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.
By dying for Adam, ransoming him from the grave, meaning, trading places with him; he opened the doors to all of our graves, meaning, we will all be resurrected. That will happen during the millennium.
It is then, that “ALL” will be taught the truth, and nothing but the truth.
It is then, if you “will not” hear, obey the truth, you will then die for “YOUR” sins, second death.Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul (person), which “”will not”” hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Jan. 15 2011,03:04) kerwin My question, I believe, was; “what does it mean, as in Adam all die”?
What it means is, none of us die for our sins now; that does not mean, we don't deserve death.
God cursed all mankind to die for Adams sin, that is why baby's, and little children die, even before they have committed a sin. Would they die for their sins, would they not then be allowed to live until they sin?
But this is how God has worked it out to save all of us with “ONE” sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.
By dying for Adam, ransoming him from the grave, meaning, trading places with him; he opened the doors to all of our graves, meaning, we will all be resurrected. That will happen during the millennium.
It is then, that “ALL” will be taught the truth, and nothing but the truth.
It is then, if you “will not” hear, obey the truth, you will then die for “YOUR” sins, second death.Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul (person), which “”will not”” hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Georg
Hi brother Georg,
There is no concept of second death in Judaism or in the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the invention of N.T writers. The punishment for sins in Hebrew Bible was physical in this life alone. Therefore there is no requirement for so called vicarious atonement for Adamic sin (Original sin). Man is not sinner by birth as alleged by Christianity rather he is born innocent but he is having limited will to choose good and evil. This was there even before the so called fall of man. Human sacrifice for sin atonement is some thing new to Judaism.Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Jan. 15 2011,17:54) Quote (Baker @ Jan. 15 2011,03:04) kerwin My question, I believe, was; “what does it mean, as in Adam all die”?
What it means is, none of us die for our sins now; that does not mean, we don't deserve death.
God cursed all mankind to die for Adams sin, that is why baby's, and little children die, even before they have committed a sin. Would they die for their sins, would they not then be allowed to live until they sin?
But this is how God has worked it out to save all of us with “ONE” sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ.
By dying for Adam, ransoming him from the grave, meaning, trading places with him; he opened the doors to all of our graves, meaning, we will all be resurrected. That will happen during the millennium.
It is then, that “ALL” will be taught the truth, and nothing but the truth.
It is then, if you “will not” hear, obey the truth, you will then die for “YOUR” sins, second death.Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul (person), which “”will not”” hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Georg
Hi brother Georg,
There is no concept of second death in Judaism or in the Hebrew Bible. It is purely the invention of N.T writers. The punishment for sins in Hebrew Bible was physical in this life alone. Therefore there is no requirement for so called vicarious atonement for Adamic sin (Original sin). Man is not sinner by birth as alleged by Christianity rather he is born innocent but he is having limited will to choose good and evil. This was there even before the so called fall of man. Human sacrifice for sin atonement is some thing new to Judaism.Peace to you
Adam
Adam: This that you say is so in line with what I have perceived to be truth yet it is hard to dig it out of the KJV Bible and even harder to tell someone.God didn't curse all mankind for Adams choice of beliefs forever! Even the KJV doesn't say that. God said to Adam cursed is the ground for thy sake,(or because of what you did) in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life! Gen3:17 Thats all the days of Adams life!
God did not say all the days of mankind forever until Jesus. He told Adam the ground was cursed because of his choice which makes sense, Adam, was to reap what he sowed to. Death! His actual choice of death or evil that mixed with fear and the feeling of separation from God that Adam felt was passed down to other people by word of mouth from Adam. Adam then believed in separation from God. Because Adams life was cursed to death from his choice would have no effect on others in any way, except, by teaching or word of mouth.
Wrong teaching from Adams belief of good and evil mixed, is to me the original sin/error passed down through generations. They listened to Adam and accepted the curse along with Adam not knowing it did not apply to them if they rejected it.In other words there was sin in Adams life but had he not taught his sons and offspring in error it would not have passed to others. Error/sin was always in the mind, not actions. The patriarchs like Abraham refused to accept separation from God and by faith they remained in union. Righteousness by faith, eight thousand years ago! Faith has always been the only connection with God for a man.
Jesus then had to finally come to show the truth to mankind to relieve them of wrong thinking/sin. The truth was, God in you! The truth was sin was a lie. We never were in “sin” we only believed we were! Sin never was do's and don't or things a person does. Sin is thinking incorrectly that there is sin in us! Sin is thinking somehow that Adams curse passed to us. Great lies that say we are born with a sin nature. We are born into wrong thinking about God. Our son of God nature didn't change. As soon as we could learn lies and deceptions from the local churches told us we were bad.
I bet I catch some hell from this post!! Peace to all, TK
Georg,
I believe that death and aging are at least part of what Romans 8:19-21 is speaking of. You should also consider that the spirit of the Lord can overcome even the effects of that curse if man turns from his wicked ways. It was in these struggles between him and the effects of sin that God grew angry with man and declared their lives would be a hundred and twenty years, Genesis 6:3.
Reference:
Genesis 6:3(NIV) reads:
Quote Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
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