Myth of original sin vicarious atonement

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2010,21:17)

Adam, Unbelievers are fond of strawmen arguments where they misinterpret a scripture than tear down the lie they made.  You can do this multiple times with multiple scriptures.   Opposing such tactics is simply a waste of time as either a person choose to believe God or they do not.  If they choose to believe God then they will believe the true interpretation of scripture. In short all I have to do is let them hear the true interpretation of scripture and hear it myself.  I doubt that I will hear such from an unbeliever. The same idea is written with different words.  The final punishmment of the wicked is outside of the city where the fires of Gehannah reside.   I believe Revelations also states something similar to Isaiah 66.  Gehannah is a Jewish belief.

Unbelievers are made by the narrow mindedness of Christians. You think they are straw that you can quick off. But Christianity says you should love them to be saved. Instead of clarifying you are avoiding their arguments. Christianity made mess of a religion by borrowing many things from Paganism and Hellenism. You see how people are divided on one issue 'whether spirit has body'. Even you are blamed on your beliefs. So you expect me to believe your ideas?

I want to see clarity in the religion not some mysterious beliefs.
Thanks for nice chat..
Peace to you
Adam

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,11:33)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2010,03:02) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,02:54) Kill the animal and poach the skin. Do you think God intended this to be vicarious atonement of Jesus? But no Jew will agree with this view. Hi Adam, Excellent Job Adam; you walked through the steps perfectly! Can you NOT see this as 'a shadow picture' of the “Gospel”? Without shedding of blood is no remission of sins. (Heb:9:22) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi brother Ed, Thanks for your agreement so far. But I can't agree on the age old interpretation of Christianity thinking God killed an animal as an atonement for sins of Adam & Eve which is not there in the scriptures. This is where I differ with you. Peace to you Adam

Hi Adam,

You do agree though that we did establish that the 'original sin'
took place by Adam and his wife Eve in the garden; right? (Matt.18:16)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Ed,
Here is wonderful explanation on Myth of Original Sin (taken from the book “Are Men Born Sinners? The Myth of Original Sin” by A. T. Overstreet;

“The very idea that men can be born sinners is absurd. It is both a physical and a moral impossibility to be born a sinner.
It is a moral impossibility because men cannot justly be sinners by birth. That men can be sinners and guilty and condemned at birth is morally unthinkable. It is a physical impossibility to be born a sinner because of the nature of sin. Sin is not a substance. It has no physical properties and cannot possibly be passed on physically from one person to another. What is sin? The Bible says, “Sin is the transgression of the law.”
I John 3:4. So, according to the Bible, sin is an act or a choice that transgresses the law of God. It cannot, therefore, be a substance because choice and substance are contradictories. Is a wicked act a substance? Is disobedience, transgressions, lawbreaking, or unrighteousness a substance? Is guilt a substance? No, they are all moral concepts or moral qualities. And it is impossible for them to be transmitted physically.

When we speak of sin, we are describing the character of an act. The word sin describes the character of an act as being wicked or wrong.
Sin is no more a substance than friendliness, goodness, or virtue are substances. If sin is a substance that can be transmitted physically, then virtue also must be a substance that can be transmitted physically. And what would be the result if all this were true? Why, sinners would beget sinners, and saints, of course, would beget saints! Sin is not a substance, and we all know that sin is not a substance. Yet learned theologians still maintain the impossible dogma that sin, like some malignant disease, has been passed on physically from Adam to all his descendants. How ridiculous it is to make sin a physical virus, instead of a voluntary and responsible choice. How foolish to speak of men being born sinners! Only in some fantastic science fiction novel might moral character be spoken of as being passed on physically in the bloodstream of man. Moral character, whether holiness or sinfulness, cannot be passed on physically. It is gross
superstition to believe that it can be.”

[Ed J]

Hi Adam,

I'm sorry, but I don't read imported 'opinions',
because I cannot reason with them. (Isaiah 1:18)

If you were to write what you believe in your own words,
them we would have something to discuss; OK?
And you never answered my question.

Could you please answer…

You do agree then that we(Ed J & Adam) established that the 'original sin'
took place by Adam and his wife Eve in the garden; right? (Matt.18:16)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

I don't agree with that opinion of yours. Hebrew scriptures deny Original sin and vicarious atonement.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 18 2010,00:46)

I don't agree with that opinion of yours. Hebrew scriptures deny Original sin and vicarious atonement.

Hi Adam,

Quit reverting back to useless clichés! Are you suffering from amnesia, Adam?

Adam and his wife sinned against YHVH(YÄ-hä-vā) in the garden;
did we not just PROVE this as fact? (1Thess.5:21)

Answer this question, so we can move on; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

That was individual sin not corporeal as Christianity think. Hebrew Bible doesn't support such false teachings of Christianity.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 18 2010,01:52)

That was individual sin not corporeal as Christianity think. Hebrew Bible doesn't support such false teachings of Christianity.

Hi Adam,

You're stuck in a rut! That does not address the question I presented you with.

Adam and his wife sinned against YHVH(YÄ-hä-vā) in the garden;
did we not just PROVE this as fact? Yes? (1Thess.5:21)

Answer this question, so we can move on; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Yes, in fact they transgressed God's commandment, sin may not be appropriate here.

[gollamudi]

A Christian also rejects Original Sin (taken again from the same book)

Rom. 5:12, 18, 19 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death
by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned…Therefore as by the
offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the
righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by
one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many
be made righteous.”
This passage is interpreted by those who believe in the doctrine of original sin to mean
that because Adam sinned, men are now born sinners that is, they become sinners
involuntarily and necessarily by inheriting a sinful nature from Adam. But this passage
does not teach the doctrine of original sin. It does not teach that men are born sinners. It
does not teach that sin is transmitted physically or any other way from Adam to his
descendants. It does not teach that the sin of Adam was imputed to his descendants. It
does not teach that men have sinned “in Adam.” On the contrary, Romans 5:14 teaches
that Adam's sin was not the sin of his descendants: “Them that had not sinned after the
similitude of Adam's transgression.” (Those that had not sinned after the similitude of
Adam's transgression were certainly sinners. But their sin was different from the sin of
Adam. They had sinned before Moses gave the law, and had only sinned against the law
of their conscience, and not against a positive precept, as had Adam. Rom. 5:13-14. And
the fact that Paul says they “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression”
shows that Paul did not consider the sin of Adam to be their sin.)

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 18 2010,02:11)

Yes, in fact they transgressed God's commandment,  sin may not be appropriate here.

Hi Adam,

You're back-peddling now!

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,00:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 16 2010,23:58) Hi Adam, OK; so we both completely agree what sin is; an action! Then isn't that exactly what Adam and his wife Eve ‘did’ (in the Garden), that wrought negative consequences? True brother Ed J.

Quote

That was individual sin

Adam and his wife sinned against YHVH(YÄ-hä-vā) in the garden;
did we not just PROVE this as fact? (1Thess.5:21)

Answer this question, so we can move on; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

What fact brother Ed, Original sin? No way..

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 18 2010,02:38)

What fact brother Ed, Original sin? No way..

Hi Adam,

The word 'original' is not in my question! Lucifer was most likely the 'original sinner'.

Adam and his wife sinned against YHVH(YÄ-hä-vā) in the garden;
did we not just PROVE this as fact? (1Thess.5:21)

Answer this question, so we can move on; OK?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

OK

[Ed J]

Hi Adam,

But you don't see YHVH clothing them as 'a shadow picture'
of Christ's crucifixion as of yet; correct so far?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Yes I don't see anything like what you imagine here. He gave them skin cloths to cover their nakedness. No where it says about Christ's crucifixion or animal sacrifice. God never offers sacrifice as sin atonement by Himself and to Himself as Christianity imagines. If at all He wanted to convey man anything He will command man like He commanded not to eat forbidden fruit. I can't agree with your logics.

Peace to you
Adam

[Ed J]

Hi Adam,

It is enough (so far) that you agree with me that
Adam and his wife Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden.

Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering.
Do you see this as 'a shadow picture' of Christ's crucifixion?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam………..I agree that sin was not passed on from Adam to all humanity as some Christians think, Scripture just says Sin (ENTERED) into the World (THROUGH) Adam. But that does not make Adam the sources of EVERYONES sin. That would be unjust of GOD to do that. In fact i don”t recall it every saying Adam sinned, but we do know he disobeyed GOD and was aware that he was disobeying him, and as a result he died. “the soul that sins (IT) shall die”, and so has everyone else also even though it was not the same sin as Adams , but they all sinned non the less we are told “ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE FLORY OF GOD”.

Jesus was the first one not to have sinned from mankind. And as i mentioned before there is a (LEGAL) right even in the Law for a KINSMAN REDEEMER. Someone who could (LEGALLY) Pay the Price for a debt.

Job 33:23…> If there be a messenger with him an interpreter, one among a thousan, to show unto man his uprightiousness: 24…> Then he is gracious unto him and saith, Deliver him from going gown to the pit: I have found a RANSOM. 24…> His (FLESH) shall be fresher thana Childs, he shall return to the days of his YOUTH: 26…> He shall pray unto God, and He will be favorable unto him: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

Adam, Jesus qualified under the terms of the Law to do that for us and GOD accepted his payment for our Justification to LIFE. So the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is a Legal right he had and could exercise for us all as he was and is a son of Man. Are you following what i am saying Brother?. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………………………………..gene

[kerwin]

Adam,

We are discussing the idea that each human inherits a spirit that craves sin from their parents because of the sin of both Adam and Eve.   As I pointed out the writers of the Old Testament clearly demonstrated that children do suffer for the sins of their parents.  The sin of Adam and Eve corrupted the spirit of mankind and this corrupted spirit was passed down through the generation.   I believe Jesus also received it but unlike most humans he was also given the Holy Spirit.  We are thus not guilty because of Adam’s sin but we also choose to sin because Adam’s sin corrupted our spirit and we have no holy spirit to live by as we lack faith from birth and probably before.  Jesus did not and does not lack faith.

You seem not to understand what the word unbeliever means.  It simply means one who does not believe.  If a person misinterprets scriptures it follows they did not believe what that scripture actually meant or they intentionally misinterpreted it.  In the later case there is little that can be done but in the former a person can point out the true meaning of that scripture.  If due to their narrow minded, stubborn and unrepentant nature a person continues in unbelief than there is nothing further you can do but use patience to continue spreading the message of Christ in hopes they will change their ways and come to believe.  

It is not a question of avoiding accusations and arguments but rather a case of belief and unbelief.  Why should I defend those that are either corrupt or ignorant and thus tell lies whether borrowed from others or spun up in their own minds?  My duty to God and thus to his Love is to speak the truth in hopes that each man may believe.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin………I believe Adam's sin did not corrupt us, if that were the case then we could not be held accountable for our sins, because it would all be Adams fault, However Adam did introduce sin into the world and and there is a (propensity) for sin in every human being born sense Adam that is for sure. But sin to me is like and infection or a virus of some kind, it comes from external sources (into) beings and begins to spread and it infects all it comes into contact with. I think we are all born not sinners at Berth, but we come to be sinners as we grow up and become infected with the World and it ways and teachings.

A child is born neutral and will go the way it is taught. “train up a child in the way it should go and when it is old it will not depart”,  Remember John said “”FOR ALL THAT IS IN THE WORLD , THE LUST OF THE EYES , THE LUST OF THE FLESH, THE PRIDE OF LIFE ARE (FROM) THE WORLD” . Yes it comes (FROM) the WORLD and infect us early on in our lives. Also look at the 1000 years rule of Jesus when evil is removed from the earth , even those people are still humans are not sining , why? because there is no influence of sin there and so they go the way they are being taught and influenced and that is the way of GOD , but notice when evil is reintroduced back in to the World they (ALL) turn to SIN> Except Jesus and the Saints.  And that was because the SPIRIT of GOD was not (IN) them to kept them from sinning as it was in Jesus and the Saints. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

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