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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2011,20:40) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2011,13:28) Mike Noah could have been righteous and blameless ,but he could not save mankind from the sin of Adam.
Yes Pierre,But what Tim was asking is how sin ended up in the post flood world if God supposedly destroyed all evil in the flood.
I was telling him that Noah could not have been completely sinless, since he too inherited sin from his father Adam.
Righteous, yes. Completely sinless? Impossible if you believe Romans 5.
mike
Mikeright to all account but wen Adam sinned the law was mention live for live ,
no men on earth could paid that price to God ,because Adam lost a perfect live,sinless live,
only God could provide that live and he did by sending his son Jesus Christ.
Pierre
Mike Boll,
From what you state Adam and Eve had neither the knowledge of how to do good or to do evil. I cannot conceive of an action that is neither good nor evil though I can conceive of actions that are good for one person but not another or are good in certain condition but not others. An action is either born out of love or it is not. If it is not born out of love then is sinful. Am I missing something in scripture or do I still misunderstand you? From what you state later I believe I misunderstand you and you are stating that a person who not accountable for their sin is one who is said not to sin even though some of their deeds would be considered sin if they had knowledge they were evil.
God judges based on circumstances; which is why Jesus teaches that the servant who misbehaved in ignorance will receive fewer stripes than the one who misbehaved in knowledge, Luke 12:47-48. This is why a child is not considered to be accountable for their sins though they still die in the flesh because of them.
Tim,
I am sure the God you acknowledge and the one Adam acknowledges and similar but there is obvious differences in that Adams states his God would not contribute DNA to a maiden he is not married to. He also states that his God does not have DNA to contribute. You on the other hand believe otherwise. In at least that way your God and Adam’s are not the same; though they may be long suffering, kind, is not vain, is not vain, is not self centered, and share many other characteristics.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2011,19:19) Tim, I am sure the God you acknowledge and the one Adam acknowledges and similar but there is obvious differences in that Adams states his God would not contribute DNA to a maiden he is not married to. He also states that his God does not have DNA to contribute. You on the other hand believe otherwise. In at least that way your God and Adam’s are not the same; though they may be long suffering, kind, is not vain, is not vain, is not self centered, and share many other characteristics.
Kerwin: In your previous post you mention,…”God judges” which I disagree. Jesus said, “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged…”Luke6:37….”condemn not and ye shall not be condmned….forgive and ye shall be forgiven….!If you judge, you will be judged by the same measure you judge with. Likewise if you condemn another you will be the one condemned. Forgiveness is the same.
Jesus didn't condemn the lady caught in the very act! I will not condemn anyone, for anything, to their own master they stand or fall and stand they will through the truth, Jesus.
Please tell me if, as you say, sharing DNA with someone you are not married to would be anything like the thousands of concubines that the great partiarchs shared DNA with? I think Solomon had eight hundred or so beside thousands of wives.
There is no condemnation for those in Christ so there is no sin! To him who thinks something is a sin, it is. Self Judgement. If you believe something is a sin against God, don't do it. If you believe you sin all the time even without knowing it consciously, then you are in sin and have a sin consciousness. God cannot dwell in sin.
Jesus came to give us the truth, there is nothing that can separate us from God except believing the lie of sin/separation. Believing one is separated from God for any reason is an illusion of the truth.God is everywhere, within and without! There is no place where God is not except a mind that is in error/sin believing it is separated from God! Jesus taught freedom from sin not judgment from sin.
Isn't the message today from Jesus that we are saved from sin? Didn't the final sacrifice make perfect forever? Did the life of Jesus only pay for perfection for a period of time? Did not the power of that sacrifice cleans all mankind forever? Once, for all time, wasn't that the deal? Now its either faith that we were made perfect in Jesus Christ or unbelief which leaves us in sin and death! By faith alone, not by any works or deeds of kindness we are perfected by Jesus. After we accept our perfection through Jesus we will produce the fruit of God! IMO, TK
Tim,
Scripture such as in Jude 1:14-16 and 1 Corinthians 5:13 teaches us God judges. God has righteous to do so because he is over us all. He is all knowing and so does not err. He is all righteous and so is just an merciful in his decisions. 1 Corinthians 5:12 teaches us that it is up to believers to judge those inside the church, though not outside it.
You cited a reference from Luke 6:37, which is teaching the same thing that Romans 2:1 and Matthew 7:2 are. The lesson is that you should apply the judgment to your own actions before you seek to apply them to another. If you do not then there is wrath waiting for your non-repentant heart. In addition you should be careful that your eyes are not biased by sinful desires when you seek to correct your neighbor.
We are warned by John in 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1-2 not to deny the sins we commit but instead to confess them so that God will cleanse us of the unrighteous want to do them.
I am unfamiliar with the culture of the Israelites of old. I did find that 1 Kings 11: 3 speaks of a king that had several hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines. I looked up the word concubine and found that it can refer to a lesser, i.e. non-royal, wife in polygamous cultures according to dictionary.com. Whatever the case, God states that any sex outside of wedlock is immoral and so an act of hate.
Jesus is the Son of God’s Spirit for God is spirit and God placed his spirit on him just as foretold in scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2011,18:54) Tim, Scripture such as in Jude 1:14-16 and 1 Corinthians 5:13 teaches us God judges. God has righteous to do so because he is over us all. He is all knowing and so does not err. He is all righteous and so is just an merciful in his decisions. 1 Corinthians 5:12 teaches us that it is up to believers to judge those inside the church, though not outside it.
You cited a reference from Luke 6:37, which is teaching the same thing that Romans 2:1 and Matthew 7:2 are. The lesson is that you should apply the judgment to your own actions before you seek to apply them to another. If you do not then there is wrath waiting for your non-repentant heart. In addition you should be careful that your eyes are not biased by sinful desires when you seek to correct your neighbor.
We are warned by John in 1 John 1:8-10 and 1 John 2:1-2 not to deny the sins we commit but instead to confess them so that God will cleanse us of the unrighteous want to do them.
I am unfamiliar with the culture of the Israelites of old. I did find that 1 Kings 11: 3 speaks of a king that had several hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines. I looked up the word concubine and found that it can refer to a lesser, i.e. non-royal, wife in polygamous cultures according to dictionary.com. Whatever the case, God states that any sex outside of wedlock is immoral and so an act of hate.
Jesus is the Son of God’s Spirit for God is spirit and God placed his spirit on him just as foretold in scripture.
Kerwin: With all due respect I feel for you because of your patience and willingness to look at scripture from all angles before submitting or rejecting it as your truth, I would point out to you that you appear to reject the words of Jesus to support man made doctrines.
I am not looking for a way to do so called “sin” or justify any of the things I point out. I am married to the same woman 37years and have never been unfaithful.Your old testament is loaded with what you call sin! The gods represented in the old testament in most cases are man calling a superior intity of destruction a god. These so called gods are not the God most high represented by Jesus as Love!
You say killing is a sin per God yet the so called gods of the old testament were murderous thieves!!Per Strongs Exhaustive Concordance:Concubine is a paramour. Websters Dictionary: Paramour: A lover, A mistress, An Illicit Relation….
2Sam3:7, 5:13, IKing11:3, 2CH11:21, Judges19:2 and many more.Why do we insist on finding what we call “evil”? This was the problem from the beginning. Adam chose to believe in evil.
Wasn't there only God? There wasn't any evil in truth.Isn't God everywhere? God is good, so where is evil? In our minds? Yes! We are talking about a mental connection with God here, NOT WORKS OR DEEDS! Evil isn't truth. Evil thinking is an illusion of truth. Evil is outside of God where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. In darkness.
Evil is sin/error or wrong thinking. Sin is an illusion, believed in the mind of man to be something that could separate God and man. As a man thinketh so he is. If he thinketh evil, so he is.
If he believes he is in union with God then he is. God having not moved. God can only go and come in the mind. In truth he never leaves or forsakes you. In a lie or in illusion of truth you might think he went away, but that is a believed illusion of truth. Where would he go? He's already there.
In Adams time there was no list of sins. How is it that we have now made a list of things that we believe separated us from God? God is in our minds! It can only be how you think that either puts you in union with God or separates you from God. Now we have based our beliefs in union with God if we
do good. Is this not the temptation of man to believe the list of silly sins? Then we work to not do these sins! Then we pride ourselves as good little people that have made God happy because we didn't do or not do something.
Does this type of believing not deny the truth of Jesus? Didn't Jesus tell us who we really are? Didn't Jesus actually make us who we are if we believe? Apart from any works. I would like to here your feelings.
The old testament created sin and death for the most part.
The New Testament creates a man back to the mental perfection he was when created. Perfect union with God. From that perfect union comes forth the fruit of the spirit in this life. IMO, TK
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2011,18:54) Tim, Scripture such as in Jude 1:14-16 and 1 Corinthians 5:13 teaches us God judges.
Hi Tim,Not only that, but when it says, “Judge not, lest you be judged”, WHO do you think it means you will be judged BY?
You will be judged BY GOD with the same measure you judge others. Judge others with mercy, and you will be judged with mercy by God.
Also, God has granted Jesus to be the judge of who will go into everlasting life and who won't. We will ALL be judged for what we've done in this life. Scripture says so.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2011,19:17) Am I missing something in scripture or do I still misunderstand you? From what you state later I believe I misunderstand you and you are stating that a person who not accountable for their sin is one who is said not to sin even though some of their deeds would be considered sin if they had knowledge they were evil.
Hi Kerwin,I think you're getting the gist of what I'm saying. A monkey cannot sin against God because it doesn't know what a sin even is. It acts ONLY according to its fleshly desires. Eat, mate, fight, kill, etc.
We also have those fleshly desires. If someone is a threat to the life or safety of us or ours, our desire is to kill that someone and thereby eliminate the threat all together. Much like a bear with young will go into a rampage and kill anything that approaches too close to her young.
If bears had the “knowledge of good and evil”, they might rather stand guard before their young and growl menacingly instead of striking out to kill the intruder – who might not even be aware he is approaching the bear's young.
What I suggest, but don't KNOW for sure, is that humans were also created to follow fleshly desires such as killing someone we considered a threat. And doing so would not have been a sin, because we did not have the knowledge that it was a sin. Now we have the knowledge, so now it IS a sin.
Sin came through the KNOWLEDGE that we WERE sinning. And that KNOWLEDGE came to us through Adam, who came by it from eating from a forbidden tree.
Kerwin, the first thing Adam and Eve did after eating the fruit was to cover their nakedness. They immediately gained the knowledge that they were naked. This is knowledge they didn't have before. That knowledge made us ACCOUNTABLE for acting on our fleshly desires. Eating from the tree put us in the position of having a daily battle between what our flesh drives us to do and what our knowledge tells us is wrong, or “evil”.
I believe we were created like that bear I mentioned before. We could have killed the intruder and not sinned in doing so. But we now know that killing another is wrong. And that causes conflict between what the flesh drives us to do and what the knowledge tells us is a sin.
That's how I understand it at this point in my studies.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 19 2011,22:13) Isn't God everywhere? God is good, so where is evil? In our minds? Yes!
Hi Tim,Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not;
charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not
behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not
easily provoked, thinketh no evil.(1Cor.13:4-5)If evil is in your mind, you need to get it out of there;
because it will lead to you SINNING against YHVH!1Cor.15:33-34 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have
not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2011,00:51) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2011,18:54) Tim, Scripture such as in Jude 1:14-16 and 1 Corinthians 5:13 teaches us God judges.
Hi Tim,Not only that, but when it says, “Judge not, lest you be judged”, WHO do you think it means you will be judged BY?
You will be judged BY GOD with the same measure you judge others. Judge others with mercy, and you will be judged with mercy by God.
Also, God has granted Jesus to be the judge of who will go into everlasting life and who won't. We will ALL be judged for what we've done in this life. Scripture says so.
peace and love,
mike
Mike: Come on, the understood person doing or not doing the judging is you!!It doesn't matter who is doing the judging, it says you won't be judged if you don't judge others.
Its quite easily understood, If you do not judge others you will not be judged. (judgment being a condemnation not just an opinion on something)
You say Judge others with mercy and you will be judged with mercy. This aligns with sowing and reaping. As long as we are judged by what we judge others with it is up to us how we are judged!
If you believe you are going to face a judgment from God or Jesus for the “things you have done” on earth, you stand condemned. No one is justified worthy unto God by the things they do or don't do. IMO. TK
As saints, we will be judged on our works. Judgement for the sanctified is not about salvation it is about reward or lack of it. There will be people who are saved but will receive no additional reward as their works will burn up in judgement.
Some will receive 100-fold while others less, even nothing.
Yes, we will be judged for the things that we have done on this Earth. Remember that if our sins are forgiven, then they are forgiven and that is the end of it.
Does no one see with spirit? When one is born of spirit/word truth, they will see that the judgment of God that came exactly as prophesied. The day(light) of the lord came as Jesus/the word of God. When the spirit of God/word of God/Jesus came it was to preach the good news that the Kingdom of God is come and thy(Gods NT) will, finally will be done. Jesus answered questions to those under the law(old covenant) but his teaching consisted of ONE single thread, to lead mankind back to the original truth, of his perfect union with God/his father.
The law and the prophets were until John the Baptist, since then the Kingdom of God is preached, and men still try to take it by force/war! Luke16:16
Jesus is the “Day of the Lord” that was prophesied by all the prophets and the law and the psalms. Luke24:44. Jesus is the words/spirit from God that came at the end of the old religious order to judge between the believers of Gods words or those who hold fast to the physical works of the law. Those who remain in the law cannot have the perfected mind, washed clean by the truth. They still believe in their works for perfection. The law of good works could not make any one perfect. That is part of the judgement of Christ.
As Jesus taught the true way to God he used parables, symbolism, pictures, visions etc. to exercise and train the spirit within mankind unto understanding. To give us ears to hear! Eyes that see and understanding in the heart so as to turn their thinking around(repent) and be saved from sin and evil thinking. The Kingdom of God that he preached, he finally told them, Luke17:20…the Kingdom of God does not come with observation(you won't see it with physical eyes) neither shall they say(and don't say this) lo(look) here or lo there,(or look up)
for behold the Kingdom of God is within you!! That was lord and master Jesus speaking. If one is born again (of spirit) let him hear and see spiritually, all the truth! As lightning instantly lighteth the sky from one end to the other so is the (light, understanding, day of the lord) coming of Jesus. When you understand instantly you say, Oh, I see! The enlightened word of God. Hear with spirit ears!
Jesus told us the truth where God is (within). The way is the truth of God, within. Take in the words of Jesus/God and build his spiritual Kingdom inside you. God now ruling through mankind. We are his voice, hands, and feet in the earth. As the words of Jesus are accepted and consumed they become your body of Christ. The Temple of God. The Church which is his body. And everything needed to be in union with God/Jesus/the Spirit! He made us a Kingdom of Priests unto God. Priests in our Temple of God, Kings of our Kingdom of God and Pastors of our Church which is his body. We are made complete through Jesus words of God.
If we love Jesus we love God and they will come and make their abode/home/house/temple/dwelling place/ IN US! John14:23
Jesus gave himself to sanctify the Church (mankind, believers) and cleanse us as the body of Christ Eph.5:26 by the washing of the water of the word of God.
We are chosen of Jesus, and ordained for the faith work of God John15:16. Jesus sanctified us through the truth John17:17!
He who heareth the words of Jesus and believeth they are from God who sent him, hath everlasting life NOW, and shall NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT/CONDEMNATION: but is passed(back from Adams choice) from death(evil) to life(good). NOW! John5:24
The works of today are to belive the truth of Jesus. John6:29
The time if fulfilled, the Kingdom of God is at hand (within reach). Mark 1:15…..repent(turn from the way you were going, OT,) and believe the gospel (good news from Jesus)
Now the righteousness of God, without the law, is manifested Rom3:21…man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law Rom3:28….the promise to Abraham & seed was not through the law but through the righteousness which is by faith Rom4:13
…..the law worketh wrath: where there is no law there is no transgression Rom4:15
….we are dead to the law by the body of Christ..Rom7:4…the law brought death Rom7:6
JESUS CONDEMNED/JUDGED SIN IN THE FLESH THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US…Rom8:4
With the heart man BELIEVETH unto righteousness!! Rom10:10
The law of the spirit of life (Jesus words) hath made us FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH! Rom8:4
The old testament was distorted and altered by religious men, greedy for money and control of the people. In the final days it produce nothing but sin and death through darkness or lack of knowing the truth about God. Sin is the error of thinking that was destroying mankind and keeping him separated from God. Sin and misunderstanding distort and twist the truth by removing the life from it and leaving nothing but believing in sin and death. If you choose to believe the old testament you have chosen the way of sin and death.
If you accept the New Testament truthes of Jesus and believe you have eternal life, you reverse the original choice of Adam to believe in evil and have abundant life and freedom from sickness or death! As it was in the Garden of Eden, its your choice what to believe.IMO, TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 20 2011,22:08) Jesus is the “Day of the Lord” that was prophesied by all the prophets and the law and the psalms.
Hi Tim,Acts 17:31
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed.Romans 2:16
This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.2 Timothy 4:1
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead2 Timothy 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.Jude 1:14;15
“See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness,Revelation 6:10
They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
All these scriptures and more lead me to believe in a FUTURE “day of the Lord” and a FUTURE day of judgement, when both the living AND the dead will be judged, FOR WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN THIS LIFE. (See last two scriptures)
Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.This last one tells me that the wicked will be destroyed.
On a side note, I would like to see a discussion/debate between you and Adam. He believes only in the OT, while you believe only in the NT. If we locked the two of you in a room, maybe you could each convince the other about the validity of the part of the scriptures that you currently DO believe in. Then maybe you both would leave the room believing in ALL scriptures as inspired of God.
mike
Bump for Adam. t8 moved the topic so you can post in it. Please address this post.
Adam said:
Quote If he was real Jewish Messiah he must had a human father since Judaism doesn't accept Virgin birth for their Messiah even I don't agree with Virgin Birth. Ed said:
Quote Hi Adam, We either believe “God's word” or we don't!
1) Isaiah 7:14 The Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).What say you, Adam? There it is in black and white from the part of the scriptures you say you DO believe.
mike
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 20 2011,22:08) Jesus is the “Day of the Lord”
Hi Tim,This is yet another False Truth we find you propagating; aye?
Amos 5:20 Shall not “The Day of The LORD” be darkness,
and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgThe Testament of God, established by Jesus, was the fuflillment of all the great prophets of old. Yet as Jesus said, one must be born of the spirit to see/understand the dreams and visions created through the parables and teachings of Jesus. One who is born again must re-create his mind from the old physical ways to attempt to please God, to spirit truth of God. Pertaining to God the only war we have is a war of truth/God or illusion of truth/lies against the truth.
The new way to God as revealed by Jesus, saves the believer from the destruction of believing they are unclean and unworthy. That is sin and darkness. Being born of light is a mental recreation to truth, awareness and understanding of God. There was very little if no truth from God being diseminated to the people of the old testament.
The day(light, truth) of the lord was coming. The prophets foretold of this great light that would come and burn up sin/error. Destroy dark thinking, evil thinking, wrong thinking or sin! The truth was to come and set the captives free from sin and death.
The sun of righteousness (light of Jesus) will arise with healing in his wings: and ye shall go forth in freedom. This great truth/word of God that was to come would burn the wicked(doctrines)from the people. The great change that happened was the effectuating of The great and terrible day of the lord that was prophesied to arise.
Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before (in front of) the great and terrible day of the lord! Jesus interpreted Elijah was John the Baptist. John came to make way for Jesus/the spirit of God. John used Baptism with water to create a picture in the acceptors of being washed clean of sin and death. A mind washing to clean away the old way of thinking, turn completely around and go another direction.(Repentance)
John was to,…”turn the heart of the fathers to children(must come as a child) and the heart of the children back to their Father/ God!
For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven (the Holy Ghost and FIRE) and all the religious, PROUD/RICH KNOW IT ALLS and all that (believe in) wickedness/sin, shall be as stubble and the day(light) that cometh shall burn them up and leave neither root or branch.BUT!!!! unto you that fear my name shall the son of righteousness arise with healing in his wings/hands/words/docrtines etc.!
The Law and the Prophets and the Psalms testified of Jesus, the light of God that would come and set Gods Kingdom in the hearts of those who accept and believe. Those who follow Jesus are cleansed, ordained, saved from sin, and made complete and whole by faith not by our works that cause boasting.
Jesus came and finished the whole complete plan of God to perfection. He said it is finished. Even laying down his life as the final sacrifice for sin for mankind forever. If you believe you still have sin or do sin you have denied Jesus and condemned yourself to the fires of destruction. You may not see or understand the fires that are burning today but they are coming as sickness, disease, cancer, aids, MS, et.al., and they are destroying life. If you are not building a faith house/temple of God now, with the power of the Holy Spirit truth, where no evil, sickness, or anti-life energy can live, then when the storm comes your house will fall as all the others.
The Bible we hold in our hands can be read and interpreted to give life or fear death. Good and evil, still the same choices to make by mankind. Most think they know it all, they are rich with knowledge and need nothing. It is truly hard for a rich man to enter/accept the Kingdom of God within. There is a wide gate that leads to destruction but a narrow gate that leads to eternal life!! If mankind continues to believe he is evil or full of sin, or unworthy unto God he will destroy himself. As a man believeth in his heart, so he is! God has given the choice to you. You accept or reject. Just like a body builder, one step at a time, light weights first then more and more and more, years later to a professional level.
The Kingdom of God starts in the mind/Garden of the heart, of one who hears and accepts. It is the smallest seed yet if nurtured, fed, and watered it will grow into one of the great trees of the forest that no one can uproot. Yet, immediately while it is small and poorly rooted, religious ones will come with lies and deceptions because ther are still in darkness. They will attempt to root out and destroy the seed sown which is good news. Just a note, if it is good news to you, then it is God.
This is some of my truth, God bless anyone who reads and builds his house of God! All, IMO, TK
Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2010,18:24) Original Sin in the Bible?
(A Christian Creation and Imposition on the Jewish Scriptures)The first mention of the concept of Original Sin is found, not in Genesis, where the fatal event was supposed to happen, but in the fifth chapter of Romans, written by Paul. According to Paul, humanity was cursed because Adam sinned when he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. As Paul puts it:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
(Rom. 5:12).
…or as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
(1 Cor. 15:22).
(Also note Rom. 5:17-19).
Despite these clear claims on the part of Paul, where are we to find the basis for them in Genesis? In that text, God pronounces all sorts of condemnations and curses upon Adam, Eve and the nefarious Serpent – working for their food, pain in childbirth, being stepped on, etc. Here is the relevant passage for reference:The Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.” To the woman he said, I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” And to the man he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
(Genesis 3:14-19)
At no point do we see anything that might qualify as a curse of “Original Sin” to be handed down to all of Adam’s descendants. Sure, their lives are supposed to become much more difficult than what they had heretofore experienced; but where in all of that is the “Sin” being passed along?Even more importantly, where is there any indication that this sin must be “redeemed” eventually by Jesus? Christianity is anxious to portray itself as the logical and theological progeny of Judaism, but if Christianity simply invents a concept and tacks it on to Jewish stories, it’s hard to see how that goal is accomplished.
The rest of the Old Testament is of no help to Christian theology in this area: from this point in Genesis all of the way through the ending of Malachi, there isn’t the slightest hint of there being any sort of Original Sin inherited by all humans through Adam. There are plenty of stories of God getting angry at humanity in general and at the Jews in particular, thus offering many opportunities for God to point out how everyone is “sinful” because of Adam. Yet we read nothing about that.
Furthermore, there is nothing about how everyone who isn’t “right” with God will go to hell and be tormented – another staple of Christian theology closely connected to Original Sin, since it is this sin which automatically condemns us. You’d think that God would have had enough heart to mention something this important, right?
Instead, God’s punishments are all physical and temporal in nature: they apply here and now, not in the hereafter. Not even Jesus is quoted as having been concerned with Adam and Original Sin. By all appearances, Paul’s interpretation is not really warranted by the actual story — a problem, since if this interpretation is not right, the whole Christian scheme of salvation falls apart.
Source: http://atheism.about.com/od/thebible/a/originalsin.htmHi All,
Here is another Topic where you can have heated arguments and debates on fact or fiction of Christian doctrines. Please share your views. I personally don't believe this doctrine of Christianity which is not based on Hebrew scriptures. It was purely invented by Paul and other N.T writers.
Hope you will all share on this new thread.
Thank you
AdamQuote Original Sin in the Bible? (A Christian Creation and Imposition on the Jewish Scriptures) Agreed! I am of course assuming you are referencing the
“doctrine of” original sin!!! I do believe the scriptures tell us of a sin in its original sense, i.e., the first act of defiance against God's will.So, if we understand “original sin” to reference the eating of forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden, then “the doctrine of original sin” inherited from Adam” is incorrect. Adam was not the first one to sin. If we inherit any such thing, it will be from Eve. Scripture plainly tells us “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”
The doctrine of original sin says we inherit original sin from Adam. Adam did not sin “original” [first] sin; Eve did. It is all a misreading of scripture done by scholars who had a point to prove, and missed it.
Quote The first mention of the concept of Original Sin is found, not in Genesis, where the fatal event was supposed to happen, but in the fifth chapter of Romans, written by Paul. According to Paul, humanity was cursed because Adam sinned when he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. As Paul puts it: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom. 5:12).
…or as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
(1 Cor. 15:22).(Also note Rom. 5:17-19).
Despite these clear claims on the part of Paul, where are we to find the basis for them in Genesis? In that text, God pronounces all sorts of condemnations and curses upon Adam, Eve and the nefarious Serpent – working for their food, pain in childbirth, being stepped on, etc. Here is the relevant passage for reference:
The Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.” To the woman he said, I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” And to the man he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
(Genesis 3:14-19)At no point do we see anything that might q
ualify as a curse of “Original Sin” to be handed down to all of Adam’s descendants. Sure, their lives are supposed to become much more difficult than what they had heretofore experienced; but where in all of that is the “Sin” being passed along?Actually Ezekial the 18th chapter is devoted to disproving the “doctrine” of original sin, here the prophet clearly states, the son will not bear the iniquity of the father, and the father will not bear the iniquity of the son. We are not bearing
“original sin” form Adam upon our own heads. We really have enough of our own.Quote Even more importantly, where is there any indication that this sin must be “redeemed” eventually by Jesus? Christianity is anxious to portray itself as the logical and theological progeny of Judaism, but if Christianity simply invents a concept and tacks it on to Jewish stories, it’s hard to see how that goal is accomplished. The rest of the Old Testament is of no help to Christian theology in this area: from this point in Genesis all of the way through the ending of Malachi, there isn’t the slightest hint of there being any sort of Original Sin inherited by all humans through Adam. There are plenty of stories of God getting angry at humanity in general and at the Jews in particular, thus offering many opportunities for God to point out how everyone is “sinful” because of Adam. Yet we read nothing about that.
Furthermore, there is nothing about how everyone who isn’t “right” with God will go to hell and be tormented – another staple of Christian theology closely connected to Original Sin, since it is this sin which automatically condemns us. You’d think that God would have had enough heart to mention something this important, right?
Instead, God’s punishments are all physical and temporal in nature: they apply here and now, not in the hereafter. Not even Jesus is quoted as having been concerned with Adam and Original Sin. By all appearances, Paul’s interpretation is not really warranted by the actual story — a problem, since if this interpretation is not right, the whole Christian scheme of salvation falls apart.
Nope! Only the doctrine of original sin falls by the truth of the scripture. The doctrine of blood sacrifice for man's sins is a very old doctrine, and the practice of blood sacrifice to serve until the fulness of time, is an old and seriously practiced doctrine.
Adam: So very much truth. Only those defending their own doctrines or the doctrines of the so called “Christian” church could argue the truth presented. Excellent post. Some of the truth about sin finally reaches the surface. Good work.
Now, may I ask you some questions that might be stupid, I am not well versed in the OT. I find no place where the “Jews” were ever chosen of God! The term Jew was attached to those Judeans coming out of Judea as a nickname. I don't know if judiasm is jewish religion or something different. I do know or I can't find different that there was never a “bloodline”people chosen by God. If Israel is considered a bloodline people or Jews or any blood related human birthline, as having respect from God, that would be against the revelation of God from Peter that God is no respector of persons.
From Abraham on all the way through the Bible as I see it, FAITH was the requirement (the only means of connection between man and God). In the NT there is no Jew or Gentile or bond or free, male or female, all are ONE in the same.
The Jews as near as I can tell put themselves in the position at the head and called themselves chosen of God. If I am wrong please correct me. Bless you, TK
Abraham was chosen and he was not a Jew or Christian but a submitter to God through Faith in God this is the meaning of Muslim
Bod: Absolutely, I agree. Do you find a supporting scripture where so called “Jews” were ever called by God as his people? How did they eventually head up the highest religious order of the time. Do you consider them as “self proclaimed” or where did God choose a “Jew”. Abraham was hebrew I believe. Was Melchizedek a “Jew”?
Do you agree with the presentation above on “original sin”? What do you think? Thanks for your time. Bless you, TK
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