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Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,13:51) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 18 2009,13:06) Hi: So, is the woman (if it is Mary) in heaven or in the wilderness?
Quote Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. Love in Christ,
Marty
Remember I said that it is a type of Mary AND the Church.v. 6 God protects the persecuted church in the desert, the traditional Old Testament place of refuge for the afflicted, according to the typology of the Exodus
The woman fled into the wilderness. The Church, in the times of persecutions, must be content to serve God in a private manner; but by divine Providence, such persecutions never lasted with violence only for a short time, signified by 1260 days, or as the same is expressed here, (ver. 14) for a time, and times, and half a time, i.e. for a year, and two years, and half a year. (Witham) — The Christians were accustomed to fly during the times of persecution into the deserts, to avoid the fury of the pagans. This was done by the greatest saints; and St. Jerome remarks, that it was this which gave rise to the eremitical state of life.
The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.
Hi CA:We know that God chose the virgin Mary to bear His Only Begotten Son, and she found this to be a great priviledge and honor, and she said:
Quote Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.Why does the Catholic church go beyond what she has indicated that “from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed”?
She was a member of the nation of Israel, and salvation is from the Jews. The sybmoblism in Revelation 12 protrays the nation of Israel, and the twelve tribes, clothed with the sun (clothed in righteousness) and the moon under her feet (possibly sin under her feet) and she travailed in pain to be delivered, and the nation of Israel gave birth to the Messiah through the virgin Mary and the red dragon is satan who through Herod was waiting to devour the child.
I personally do not believe the scripture in Genesis that you say applies to this, applies because in that case the sun and the moon were shown in Joseph's dream bowing to him, but in this case the symbolism is “a woman clothed with the sun”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,07:30) You may want to read the fathers….O…that's right….you have rejected your spiritual birthright.
Actually I enjoy much writing from the the early fathers, before the Trinity doctrine took hold and Constantine merged paganism with christianity.Some great quotes can be found here.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,20:44) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,07:30) You may want to read the fathers….O…that's right….you have rejected your spiritual birthright.
Actually I enjoy much writing from the the early fathers, before the Trinity doctrine took hold and Constantine merged paganism with christianity.Some great quotes can be found here.
t8Really, you should remove “Ignatious” quotes from your site for you are promoting the “Spurious” writings which are false!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 19 2009,13:24) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,20:44) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,07:30) You may want to read the fathers….O…that's right….you have rejected your spiritual birthright.
Actually I enjoy much writing from the the early fathers, before the Trinity doctrine took hold and Constantine merged paganism with christianity.Some great quotes can be found here.
t8Really, you should remove “Ignatious” quotes from your site for you are promoting the “Spurious” writings which are false!
WJ
Some proof and if it is so, I will gladly remove it.Quote You may want to read the fathers….O…that's right….you have rejected your spiritual birthright. listen…………closely……….no, that stone still doesn't speak, how long you going to keep waiting wolf till one of the stones speak? don't worry your father hears them ………then tells you what they say………..isn't that just like the world……..have heard movies like that make millions, what is the cut your church gets wolf?
Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 19 2009,14:02) Quote You may want to read the fathers….O…that's right….you have rejected your spiritual birthright. listen…………closely……….no, that stone still doesn't speak, how long you going to keep waiting wolf till one of the stones speak? don't worry your father hears them ………then tells you what they say………..isn't that just like the world……..have heard movies like that make millions, what is the cut your church gets wolf?
You lost me there.you do not make for yourself a carved image ………..shemoth/exodus 20.4
could you please quote the footnote you have in 'your bible' regarding the scripture stated above ……….
****post it note for me:
venerate/worshipQuote (princess of the king @ Sep. 19 2009,14:48) you do not make for yourself a carved image ………..shemoth/exodus 20.4 could you please quote the footnote you have in 'your bible' regarding the scripture stated above ……….
****post it note for me:
venerate/worship
O…I'm SO glad you asked. Gladly:Ver. 4. A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing, &c. All such images or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary, so far from being forbidden are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Exodus xxv. 15, &c.; chap. xxxviii. 7; Numbers xxi. 8, 9; 1 Chronicles xxviii. 18, 19; 2 Chronicles iii. 10. (Challoner) — Protestants insidiously translate “any graven image,” though pesel, eidolon, glupton, and sculptile, in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, denote a graven thing or idol. They will, however, hardly condemn his majesty for having his representation stamped upon the coin of the nation, nor so many of our wealthy noblemen, who adorn their rooms with the choicest efforts of painting and of sculpture. They know that the object of prohibition is the making and adoring of idols. But they probably wish to keep the ignorant under the stupid delusion of supposing, that Catholics are idolaters, because they have images, and that they themselves are not, though they have them likewise at home; and even in their churches admit the absurd figures of the lion and the unicorn, stretching their paws over the tables of the law, instead of the pious representations of Jesus expiring on the cross, &c., which were set up by their Catholic ancestors. Let them read, and adopt herein just weights and measures, proposed to them by Thorndike, one of their most discerning and moderate teachers. In the mean time, we will assure them, that we abhor all idols; both those made with hands, and those which are formed by the head of heretics, who set up their own fancies and delusions, to be adored instead of the true God. Our general councils of Nice and of Trent define what we ought to believe on this head; and the matter is so fully explained in our catechisms and books of instruction, as well as from our pulpits, that no person can well remain in ignorance. If we perform various actions of respect before pictures, which are also done in honour of God, can any man of sense infer, that we look upon both with equal respect? Do we not read of the people falling down to shew respect to the king, and supreme worship to God, by the same act of the body? (Haydock) — Altars and sacrifice we reserve solely for God, as St. Augustine (contra Faust. xx. 21) well observes. Other indifferent practices must be determined by the intention. — Latria, or supreme worship, can be given to none but the Deity. But we shew our respect and veneration for his servants in glory, by an inferior service called Dulia, giving honour to whom honour is due. How profane and impious must the words of the first reformers appear, who, after saying most falsely, that “papists make the Virgin Mary a god, (Luther. postil.) and worship images in heathenish manner,” (Melanct. Loc. com.) attribute various fictitious crimes to the blessed Virgin and other saints! (Centuriators of Magdeburg; Calvin, &c.) They knew that all the saints abhorred their impiety; and therefore, in revenge, they vilify the saints, and condemn all the doctors and fathers of the Church, since the death of the apostles, as guilty of superstition and idolatry. (Haydock) — “By this occasion, dead creatures, and bloodless half worm-eaten bones, began to be honoured, invocated, and worshipped with divine honour. All which the doctors of the Church not only winked at, but also set forward.” (Centuriators of Magdeburg, Chap. vi.) What is then become of the promises of God, to teach all the truth by the mouths of his pastors? (Matthew xxviii, &c.) Let others judge, whether we ought to pay greater deference to Saints Jerome, Augustine, Gregory, &c., or to Luther, Calvin, and the Centuriators of Magdeburg. But some will even admit that images were commanded by God, chap. xxv. 18, &c. Hence they lay great stress upon the words to thyself; as if all images were forbidden that man should make, without the express sanction of God. So Parkhurst Lexic. But those who are conversant in Hebrew, know that these words have no such import; and if things were inseparable from idolatry, they could not be sanctioned by God. (Haydock) — No creature must be represented as a deity. But sovereign worship, both internal and external, must be given to the great Author of all good, while we abstain from every superstitious act, and from all dealings with the devil and false religions. (Calmet) — Protestants, therefore, who only forbid images, diminish God's law. Were not the idols of Chanaan, Chamos, &c., which represented nothing in nature, also condemned?
Here's verse 5:
Ver. 5. Adore. Protestants translate again, with the same view, as in the preceding verse, “thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,” in condemnation of Catholics, who kneel before the cross. But do not they kneel, when they receive their sacramental bread, or when they ask for their parents' blessing? Did not St. John, and other saints, bow down out of respect to angels? And were these all idolaters! We are forbidden, therefore, to shew any respect to strange gods. But we must honour the true God in his saints, referring all the glory to him. (Haydock) — Hate me. Those who do not imitate their wicked ancestors, need not fear being involved in their punishment. (Menochius) (St. Augustine, q. 42; St. Gregory, mor. 15. 22; St. Jerome in Ezechiel xviii.) — Sometimes, indeed, God takes away the lives of children and of subjects, to punish the sins of parents and of kings; but this may be no real detriment to the deceased. (Haydock) — Grotius thinks, that this menace is directed against idolaters. Others believe, it may be placed at the conclusion of each of the commandments. (Calmet)
Quote ****post it note for me:
venerate/worshipokay, a easy verse to understand……..no graven images
long post for such a simple verse, once again you do not worship you venerate graven images…….forgot about keeping parts of the dead, bowing down, threw that one in for good measure eh?
next question:
the faces that are chosen for these venerated graven images, who chooses what they look like, who manufactures them?
***post it note for me:
shroud/ancient paintingsQuote (princess of the king @ Sep. 19 2009,15:30) Quote ****post it note for me:
venerate/worshipokay, a easy verse to understand……..no graven images
Actually “no graven images” is not the interpretation of the passage. Maybe if you wanted to generalize you could say “no worship of graven images”. That would be the truer meaning. If there are “no graven images”, then please explain to me the bronze serpent that Moses raised up. Please explain to me the graven image decorations for the temple of Solomon.Your fundamentalism isn't working out for you is it?
Quote next question: the faces that are chosen for these venerated graven images, who chooses what they look like, who manufactures them?
Who cares.
Quote Quote
next question:the faces that are chosen for these venerated graven images, who chooses what they look like, who manufactures them?
Who cares.
you should.
Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 20 2009,14:11) Quote Quote
next question:the faces that are chosen for these venerated graven images, who chooses what they look like, who manufactures them?
Who cares.
you should.
But….I don't. It's really not on par with the issues we've been discussing.To All…………..there is (NO) REAL MAN OF SIM. it is a false IMAGE of Jesus being a GOD, that is why it says because they recieved not he love of the truth, GOD would Send them a DELUSION, in order for them to believe A LIE, NOW Guess what that (LIE) is?< It is the LIE THAT JESUS IS (A GOD). This LIE has existed since the council of Necia and will be (Abolished) BY JESUS HIMSELF, by His very own word from His mouth when He returns, as Spoken of in 2Ths 2. Remember it says its a LIE that they would believe in. That LIE IS JESUS IS A GOD.
John spoke in three places that anyone who did not believe Jesus came in the Flesh was Antichrist., for this is the spirit (intellect) of Antichrist, what Spirit (intellect ) was that ? It was that Jesus was a preexisting Being who reincarnated into a flesh body. The Gnostic's taught this also , they said Jesus came from the Pelora of the GODS and He was only perceived as being Human , but was in disguise. He really was a GOD that came to straighten everything out. That is why John said there were already many Antichrists, and Paul said the Spirit of Iniquity was already at work, but the Apostles were holding it back as long as they were alive , but when they died this false teaching began to take root and came forth from the midst of “Christianity” the concept of the GOD MAN JESUS and this was turning Jesus' IMAGE into a MAN OF SIN. Again the MAN OF SIN is (NOT) a real PERSON it is a LIE about a REAL PERSON . Remember GOD said “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. The act of turning Jesus into a GOD is an act of LAWLESSNESS. IT breaks the First commandment of GOD. IMO
peace and love ………………………………..gene
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 17 2009,20:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 17 2009,17:34) Marty Quote (942767 @ Sep. 15 2009,17:49) And she is the Mother of Harlots. She is the source of false doctrines that other so called Christian denominations teach.
Yet you feel that you are called to be a Bishop in one of those churchs? HMMM!Quote (942767 @ Sep. 15 2009,17:49)
Are you listening, He said come out of her my people that you might not be a partaker of her plagues.
Are you sure that you are listening? If God is calling his people out of them, then how is it that you believe God is calling you into it?WJ
Hi WJ:As a Bishop or overseer in the church, God will correct these false doctrines and practices in the church through me.
No, I just don't feel that I have been called into this position. I know this for a fact.
But I am not going to put myself in that position. He said that He would put me in that position, and so, I will wait not his promise.
I will let you know when it happens.
Love in Christ,
Marty
94But if you think the Church is of the Harlot then why would God call you to be a Bishop in it when he according to you says to
“Come out of her”.
Has he made an exception for you?
WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,17:46) Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 19 2009,15:30) Quote ****post it note for me:
venerate/worshipokay, a easy verse to understand……..no graven images
Actually “no graven images” is not the interpretation of the passage. Maybe if you wanted to generalize you could say “no worship of graven images”. That would be the truer meaning. If there are “no graven images”, then please explain to me the bronze serpent that Moses raised up. Please explain to me the graven image decorations for the temple of Solomon.Your fundamentalism isn't working out for you is it?
Quote next question: the faces that are chosen for these venerated graven images, who chooses what they look like, who manufactures them?
Who cares.
So the crucifix itself is not wrong. Only when the baseball player kisses it. Right?thinker
Thinker, CA, WJ……….why no answer to my Last POST. Does it strike in the heart the false Trinitarian belief system. If what I have posted is not true the Please put your Trinitarian heads together and show me, the error.
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 21 2009,16:32) To All…………..there is (NO) REAL MAN OF SIM. it is a false IMAGE of Jesus being a GOD, that is why it says because they recieved not he love of the truth, GOD would Send them a DELUSION, in order for them to believe A LIE, NOW Guess what that (LIE) is?< It is the LIE THAT JESUS IS (A GOD). This LIE has existed since the council of Necia and will be (Abolished) BY JESUS HIMSELF, by His very own word from His mouth when He returns, as Spoken of in 2Ths 2. Remember it says its a LIE that they would believe in. That LIE IS JESUS IS A GOD. John spoke in three places that anyone who did not believe Jesus came in the Flesh was Antichrist., for this is the spirit (intellect) of Antichrist, what Spirit (intellect ) was that ? It was that Jesus was a preexisting Being who reincarnated into a flesh body. The Gnostic's taught this also , they said Jesus came from the Pelora of the GODS and He was only perceived as being Human , but was in disguise. He really was a GOD that came to straighten everything out. That is why John said there were already many Antichrists, and Paul said the Spirit of Iniquity was already at work, but the Apostles were holding it back as long as they were alive , but when they died this false teaching began to take root and came forth from the midst of “Christianity” the concept of the GOD MAN JESUS and this was turning Jesus' IMAGE into a MAN OF SIN. Again the MAN OF SIN is (NOT) a real PERSON it is a LIE about a REAL PERSON . Remember GOD said “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. The act of turning Jesus into a GOD is an act of LAWLESSNESS. IT breaks the First commandment of GOD. IMO
peace and love ………………………………..gene
Gene,
There are several problems with your view above. I will address the most obvious. You say that the man of sin is not a real person but the trinitarian lie that came with the Council of Nicea. You say that the Lord will destroy this lie when He comes back.So here is the problem: The Lord came back nearly 300 years BEFORE the Council of Nicea. He told His disciples that He would return in their generation. Therefore, the man of sin was destroyed LONG BEFORE Nicea.
So it appears that the Lord Jesus when He returned did not do a very good job at destroying the trinitarian “lie.”
Next question please.
thinker
Thinker…………Look no one believes the Lord has returned but you, so I don't even want to go there, You have explained NOTHING in my opinion and most every on on the Whole Planet's opinions, If the Lord has returned where why aren't the Saints ruling with Him. A deluding Spirit can cause a person to drift of into all kinds of things. Believe me and most of the World Jesus Has (NOT) returned YET. You have failed to answer any of my POST, and trying to dismiss it by some nonsense of your is just a way of not dealing with it as you trinitarians do with so much of the questions put to you. IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,04:45) Thinker…………Look no one believes the Lord has returned but you, so I don't even want to go there, You have explained NOTHING in my opinion and most every on on the Whole Planet's opinions, If the Lord has returned where why aren't the Saints ruling with Him. A deluding Spirit can cause a person to drift of into all kinds of things. Believe me and most of the World Jesus Has (NOT) returned YET. You have failed to answer any of my POST, and trying to dismiss it by some nonsense of your is just a way of not dealing with it as you trinitarians do with so much of the questions put to you. IMO peace and love……………………..gene
Gene,
So you believe in the TRADITIONAL view that the Lord is yet to come? I thought you reject tradition Gene. Check outI may be the only one here who believes the Lord came but there are many who believe it.
You boast that you let words mean what they say and tirinitarians change words. Well, then let words mean what they say. Jesus said that He would return to “this generation.” Not our time but the time of His disciples. He told His disciples that THEY would see His coming.
So who is letting words mean what they say?
You say that the man of sin is not a person but it is the trinitarian lie. This is not letting words mean what they say Gene. Paul said “MAN” of sin. If you let words mean what they say as you boast, then Paul was referring to a man.
You are a hypocrite Gene!
thinker
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