Mystery babylon the great, the mother of harlots

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……. CA trying to make Jerusalem the Great Whore in REVELATIONS is false , The GREAT City that rules over the kings of the earth was (NOT) Jerusalem , Jerusalem never ruled over  the kingdoms of the whole Known earth as spoken of in REV. Jerusalem was not even ruling over Israel much less the whole known world. That Great city that reigns over the Kings of the EARTH, was spoken in a present tense and could only have been ROME at the time of that Prophesy. Rome was the Beast Power ruling over the kings of the earth.  

A beast in REV. is symbolic for a ruling Military Power as ROME was, The False Prophet of that beast power is the Catholic Church, in particular the popes who under the power of the beast exercised great authority over the kings of the whole earth, controlling their decision making abilities, Until Napoleon gave Her a deadly blow breaking her Power to rule over Kingdoms, but that wound is trying to be healed as scripture say , We have in our own generations have seem the Horror of Catholic influence in the Irish conflict.

Lets not kid ourselves that Church has in the past and present been the instigator of blood shed and great toucher and confusion in the earth, along with her daughters the protestants. Their teaching are corrupt and their belief system came from Babylon Mystery Religions, the Mother of abominations of the earth. They believe in a three headed TRINITARIAN religion, and keep all the pagan days of worship and try to pass it off as “Christian” when in fact it pure pagan practices, or are we supposed to believe that (SUN) day , Ishtar (Easter) Goddess of Sex and fertility (easter eggs and bunny rabbits), and the Solace of rebirth DEC 25, by pagan Babylonian religions were just something that happened  accidentally to end up in their present religious practices , not to even mention all souls eve (Halloween) a doctrine of devils and demons. Non of these practice Has anything to do with the true worship of our GOD, nor do they represent HIM or Jesus at all. Pure PAGAN Practices, and if they say different they are simply lying and denying the truth.

That Church is full of blasphemies and abominations against GOD, Jesus< and the Satins of GOD, as their bloody history shows it clearly.  They brand other as Heretics when in fact they are the greatest Heretics that this earth has ever produced. Whose time will soon come to an end.

Peace and love to you and your T8……………………..gene

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 17 2009,09:22)

CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote: [quote=942767,Sep. 16 2009,11:43] CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote: [quote=942767,Sep. 16 2009,10:10] Hi CA: You will find what I teach written in the the Word of God in the bible, and if it is not written there, God did not say it. Love in Christ, Marty

You cannot substantiate for yourself, much less for anyone else what books even belong in the Bible. I think your footing is a bit too slippy to be making such a statement.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 17 2009,20:37)

CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote: I have to say I agree with you on this one CA Allthough the Catholic church has made mistakes, the church MAY hold alot of truths, which nobody really cares to look into. But I have been (for the past week) http://www.marianland.com/antichrist/antichrist001.html Note on this link the writtings further down the page As  the early church seemed to point to Jerusalem and the recreation of the nation Isreal as being the coming Antichrist or beast, babylon, Im ATM trying to work out if A- The church was making all this up to try and divert attention off themself, or B- It is true, the Beast power/ Antichrist  is a restored Isreal and everyone else is decieved into believing it is the Roman Catholic Church. One point of interest, Catholics dont hate Jesus. Another is that the whole world will be decieved.

Thanks for your candor. I honor your journey.

May I suggest continuing your search by including the fathers and doctors of the Church as sources to consider?

Yes, we do love Jesus. That should go without saying. But many Prots in this country are like Americans dealing with Iraqis or Iranians. “Go bomb the towel heads”. My point being that it is easy do mystify and dehumanize and misunderstand those who we don't really know or care to know.

Thank you for seeking to understand. I really respect that.

I think you're going to be amazed at what you find.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2009,22:07)

Let's for argument sake say that Jerusalem is the harlot, then that leaves the beast and his image. If the beast is Rome, then what is the image. Rome is still under suspicion and the Vatican is a state in the middle of Rome. At least one person here has said that the Vatican is the image as it isn't Rome herself but an image of her. Others say the harlot woman is the Vatican (RCC), and still others say that the Vatican is the beast. We do know that Israel is the woman in REVELATION 12 1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. The 'woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head' is a clear reference to Joseph's dream (Gen 37:9) and therefore the woman represents Israel. Genesis 37:8-9 8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said. 9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” Also, Rome and Jerusalem are both great cities. A great city doesn't always have to be seen as the same city. e.g., I think that New York and Sydney are both great cities.

Quote

Let's for argument sake say that Jerusalem is the harlot, then that leaves the beast and his image. If the beast is Rome, then what is the image. Rome is still under suspicion and the Vatican is a state in the middle of Rome.

You are mixing too many passages together. I don't see what you are referring to. Can you be more specific? Remember, we are talking about some things that have already taken place and then also about things to come.

Quote

We do know that Israel is the woman in REVELATION 12 1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

No, we don't know that this is Israel. It was Mary who gave birth to Jesus Christ. She is the “woman” of Gen. 3:15. She through her Son crushed the head of the serpent. We must see this passage in light of salvation history from beginning to end. So you must take the advice of the fathers and look at Gen. 3:15.

Quote

The 'woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head' is a clear reference to Joseph's dream (Gen 37:9) and therefore the woman represents Israel.

Mary is also an image of the Church since she was the first Christian and first believer in Christ. Her fiat (let it be done – Amen) opened the way for the salvation of the Lord and the birth of the new creation in Christ. The twelve stars are the twelve apostles. Both Mary and the Church have no light of their own, yet they are clothed with the light of God and His glory and so they reflect it like does the moon. Thus Jesus, the light, could say “you are the light of the world.”

Quote

Also, Rome and Jerusalem are both great cities. A great city doesn't always have to be seen as the same city.

But at the same time God's goal is not to confuse us. In a book of this nature, these things are spiritually discerned. Not only does the church's interpretation make the most sense, but we must also consider that it was to her that these things were written.

[karmarie]

Thankyou for your encouragment CA, I personally dont like to discount anything, and I am searching, I find going back to the early church writtings to be a safe thing especially these days!

Regarding Rome,

“…he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way” 2 Thess. 2:3-7

Rome was the restrainer according to the early church. Keeping the antichrist from coming,
Once Rome fell and was divided into 10 kingdoms, the Antichrist was to come after that into a restored Jerusalem and temple

http://biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

This is where I get lost.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (karmarie @ Sep. 18 2009,10:38)

Thankyou for your encouragment CA, I personally dont like to discount anything, and I am searching, I find going back to the early church writtings to be a safe thing especially these days! Regarding Rome, “…he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way” 2 Thess. 2:3-7 Rome was the restrainer according to the early church. Keeping the antichrist from coming, Once Rome fell and was divided into 10 kingdoms, the Antichrist was to come after that into a restored Jerusalem and temple http://biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm This is where I get lost.

Maybe this will help:

The claim that the pope is the Antichrist has been part of anti-Catholic rhetoric since the Reformation, when it was needed to justify the Protestant Reformers’ desire to leave the Catholic Church.

Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord states, “[T]he pope is the real Antichrist who has raised himself over and set himself against Christ . . . Accordingly, just as we cannot adore the devil himself as our lord or God, so we cannot suffer his apostle, the pope or Antichrist, to govern us as our head or lord” (Smalcald Articles 2:4:10, 14).

The Presbyterian and Anglican Westminster Confession states, “There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be the head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and that son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God” (25:6).

To make the prophecies of the Antichrist fit the pope, some even claimed that “the temple of God” in which the Antichrist pretends to be God (2 Thess. 2:4) is the Vatican.

Although the Fathers of the Church speculated on the Antichrist in various ways, they would never have agreed. They showed the temple to be the Jewish temple, rebuilt by Antichrist in Jerusalem. Rather than the bishop of Rome, the early Fathers identified the Antichrist as a government official—a king coming to power in the ruins of the Roman Empire. He would probably be Jewish, possibly from the tribe of Dan. And most importantly, rather than claiming like the pope to be the vicar or emissary of Jesus Christ, he would claim that Jesus was not the Christ but that he was instead. He would then seduce many of the Jewish people by attempting to fulfill the political.aspirations they held for the Messiah. The quotes that follow illustrate both the different ideas they had about the Antichrist and how different their conception was from the anti-papal idea that arose in later centuries.

“[T]he whole time of your faith will not profit you unless you are made complete in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and sheep shall be turned into wolves . . . and then shall the deceiver of the world appear, pretending to be the Son of God, and [he] shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands” (Didache 16:3-4 [A.D. 70]).

Polycarp of Smyrna

“Everyone who does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an antichrist [1 John 4:2-3, 2 John 7]; whoever does not confess the testimony of the cross is of the devil; and whoever perverts the sayings of the Lord for his own desires, and says that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, such a one is the firstborn of Satan” (Letter to the Philadelphians 7:1 [A.D. 135]).

Irenaeus

“y means of the events which shall occur in the time of the Antichrist it is shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God, and that although a mere slave, he wishes to be proclaimed as king. For he, being endued with all the power of the devil, shall not come as a righteous king nor as a legitimate king in subjection to God, but as an impious, unjust, and lawless one . . . setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising himself up as the only idol. . . . Moreover [Paul] has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways: that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God [2 Thess. 2:4] . . . in which the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ” (Against Heresies 5:25:1-2 [A.D. 189]).

“Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of the Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number] when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him as supposing him not to be the expected
one. . . . It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy than to be making surmises and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned, and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved” (ibid., 5:30:2-3).

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months and will sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire” (ibid., 5:30:4).

Hippolytus

“Now as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of his royalty and glory, in the same way have the scriptures also beforehand spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion. Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb, so he too in like manner will appear as a lamb without; within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision , and he will come in the same manner. . . . The Savior raised up and showed his holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem” (The Antichrist 6 [A.D. 200]).

“[W]e find it written regarding Antichrist . . . ‘Dan is a lion’s whelp, and he shall leap from Bashan’ [Deut. 33:22]. But that no one may err by supposing that this is said of the Savior, let him attend carefully to the matter. Dan, he says, is a lion’s whelp. And in naming the tribe of Dan, he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring. For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan. And that the case stands thus, we see also from the words of Jacob: ‘Let Dan be a serpent, lying upon the ground, biting the horse’s heel’ [Gen. 49:17]. What then is meant by the serpent but Antichrist, that deceiver who is mentioned in Genesis [Gen. 3:1], who deceived Eve and supplanted Adam? . . . t is in reality out of the tribe of Dan, then, that tyrant and king, that dread judge, that son of the devil, is destined to spring and arise” (ibid., 14).

“Above all, moreover, he will love the nation of the Jews. And with all these [Jews] he will work signs and terrible wonders, false wonders and not true, in order to deceive his impious equals. . . . And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem and will restore it again speedily and give it over to the Jews” (Discourse on the End of the World 23-25 [A.D. 217]).

Tertullian

“[T]he man of sin, the son of perdition, who must first be revealed before the Lord comes, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped; and
who is to sit in the temple of God and boast himself as being God. . . . According indeed to our view, he is Antichrist; as it is taught us in both the ancient and the new prophecies, and by the apostle John, who says that ‘already many false prophets have gone out into the world,’ the forerunners of Antichrist, who deny that Christ is come in the flesh, and do not acknowledge Jesus, meaning in God the Creator” (Against Marcion 5:16 [A.D. 210]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“If they [the heretics] desire peace, let them lay aside their arms. If they make atonement, why do they threaten? Or if they threaten, let them know that they are not feared by God’s priests. For even Antichrist, when he shall begin to come, will not enter into the Church [even though] he threatens; neither shall we yield to his arms and violence, [though] he declares that he will destroy us if we resist” (Letters 69[70]:3 [A.D. 253]).

“oth baptism is one and the Holy Spirit is one and the Church, founded by Christ the Lord upon Peter, by a source and principle of unity, is one also. Hence it results that with them [heretics and schismatics] all things are futile and false, nothing that which they have done ought to be approved by us. . . . And the blessed apostle John also, keeping the commandments and precepts of the Lord, has laid it down in his epistle and said, ‘You have heard that Antichrist shall come; even now there are many antichrists, whereby we know that it is the last time . . . ‘[1 John 2:18]. Wherefore we who are with the Lord and maintain the unity of the Lord, and according to his condescension administer his priesthood in the Church, should repudiate and reject and regard as profane whatever his adversaries and the antichrists do; and to those who, coming about of error and wickedness, acknowledge the true faith of the one Church, we should give the truth both of unity and faith, by means of all the sacraments of divine grace” (ibid., 54[69]:19).

“ecause there can be nothing common to falsehood and truth, to darkness and light, to death and immortality, to Antichrist and Christ, we ought by all means to maintain the unity of the Catholic Church and not to give way to the enemies of the faith and truth in any respect. Neither must we prescribe the form of custom, but overcome opposite custom by reason. For neither did Peter, whom first the Lord chose and upon whom he built his Church . . . despise Paul because he had previously been a persecutor of the Church, but admitted the counsel of truth [that Paul gave] . . . furnishing thus an illustration to us both of concord and of patience” (ibid., 70[71]:2-3).

Lactantius

“[A] king shall arise out of Syria, born from an evil spirit, the overthrower and destroyer of the human race, who shall destroy that which is left by the former evil, together with himself. . . . But that king will not only be most disgraceful in himself, but he will also be a prophet of lies, and he will constitute and call himself God, and will order himself to be worshipped as the Son of God, and power will be given to him to do signs and wonders, by the sight of which he may entice men to adore him. He will command fire to come down from heaven and the sun to stand and leave his course, and an image to speak, and these things shall be done at his word. . . . Then he will attempt to destroy the temple of God and persecute the righteous people” (Divine Institutes 7:17 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“This aforementioned Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman Empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts, perhaps, but all reigning at the same time. After these there shall be an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by the evil craft of his magic shall seize upon the Roman power. Of the kings who reigned before him, three shall he humble [Dan. 7:24], and the remaining seven he shall have as subjects under him. At first he shall feign mildness—as if he were a learned and discreet person—and sobriety and loving kindness” (Catechetical Lectures 15:12 [A.D. 350]).

“Having beguiled the Jews by the lying signs and wonders of his magical deceit, until they believe he is the expected Christ, he shall afterwards be characterized by all manner of wicked deeds of inhumanity and lawlessness, as if to outdo all the unjust and impious men who have gone before him. He shall display against all men, and especially against us Christians, a spirit that is murderous and most cruel, merciless and wily. For three years and six months only shall he be the perpetrator of such things; and then he shall be destroyed by the glorious second coming from heaven of the only-begotten Son of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus, the true Christ, who shall destroy him with the breath of his mouth [2 Thess. 2:8], and deliver him over to the fire of Gehenna” (ibid.).

Augustine

“Daniel prophesies of the last judgment in such a way as to indicate that Antichrist shall first come and to carry on his destruction to the eternal reign of the saints. For when in prophetic vision he had seen four beasts, signifying four kingdoms, and the fourth conquered by a certain king, who is recognized as Antichrist, and after this the eternal kingdom of the Son of Man, that is to say, of Christ” (The City of God 20:19 [A.D. 419]).

[karmarie]

Thanks CA thats exactly what iv been reading lately!

My journey continues I have more study to do

[942767]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 17 2009,17:34)

Marty Quote (942767 @ Sep. 15 2009,17:49) And she is the Mother of Harlots.  She is the source of false doctrines that other so called Christian denominations teach. Yet you feel that you are called to be a Bishop in one of those churchs?  HMMM! Quote (942767 @ Sep. 15 2009,17:49) Are you listening, He said come out of her my people that you might not be a partaker of her plagues. Are you sure that you are listening? If God is calling his people out of them, then how is it that you believe God is calling you into it? WJ

Hi WJ:

As a Bishop or overseer in the church, God will correct these false doctrines and practices in the church through me.

No, I just don't feel that I have been called into this position. I know this for a fact.

But I am not going to put myself in that position. He said that He would put me in that position, and so, I will wait not his promise.

I will let you know when it happens.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

So who else thinks that Jerusalem is the great harlot?

[942767]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,06:19)

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 17 2009,09:22) CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote: [quote=942767,Sep. 16 2009,11:43] CatholicApologist,Sep. wrote: [quote=942767,Sep. 16 2009,10:10] Hi CA: You will find what I teach written in the the Word of God in the bible, and if it is not written there, God did not say it. Love in Christ, Marty You cannot substantiate for yourself, much less for anyone else what books even belong in the Bible.  I think your footing is a bit too slippy to be making such a statement.

Hi CA:

You have a right to your opinion.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,06:37)

But at the same time God's goal is not to confuse us. In a book of this nature, these things are spiritually discerned. Not only does the church's interpretation make the most sense, but we must also consider that it was to her that these things were written.

God is not the author of confusion, but he does conceal things so that only those who seek will find.

It is also normal language to refer to cities or anything else as great. This term is not suppose to denote one particular city. At least that is not how we use that word today.

'Greatest' could denote one particular thing as there is normally one that stands out above the rest.

There are different contexts in the words 'great', 'greater', 'greatest'. I learned this from the Children's Television Workshop/Sesame Street and surely they can't be wrong?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,06:37)

No, we don't know that this is Israel.  It was Mary who gave birth to Jesus Christ.  She is the “woman” of Gen. 3:15.  She through her Son crushed the head of the serpent.  We must see this passage in light of salvation history from beginning to end.  So you must take the advice of the fathers and look at Gen. 3:15.

REVELATION 12
1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

Genesis 37:8-9
8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.

9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

So Joseph had a dream where the sun and the moon, as well as eleven stars bowed down to him.

Why only eleven stars? Joseph was one of the stars. His brothers were the other 11 and the sun and the moon may be the parents.

Genesis 37:10
10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

So even his father thought the sun, moon, and stars was himself, his wife and his sons (minus Joseph).

So lets run with Israel and see if it fits in the Revelation scripture.

1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun,
with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

If the woman is Israel, then did she give birth to a son? Yes.
Sure it was through Mary, but the son came from Israel and the Dragon tried in vain to kill the child.

Revelation 12:4
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

Babylonian belief encompassed the Queen of Heaven and her child. Perhaps by believing that the woman is Mary is a demonstration of being under the influence of Babylonian teaching. If so, we are told to come out of her and that her wine has made all the nations drunk.

[942767]

Hi:

So, is the woman (if it is Mary) in heaven or in the wilderness?

Quote

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Good question. Was Mary 3.5 years in the wilderness?

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,12:14)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,06:37) No, we don't know that this is Israel.  It was Mary who gave birth to Jesus Christ.  She is the “woman” of Gen. 3:15.  She through her Son crushed the head of the serpent.  We must see this passage in light of salvation history from beginning to end.  So you must take the advice of the fathers and look at Gen. 3:15. REVELATION 12 1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. Genesis 37:8-9 8 His brothers said to him, “Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?” And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said. 9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” So Joseph had a dream where the sun and the moon, as well as eleven stars bowed down to him. Why only eleven stars? Joseph was one of the stars. His brothers were the other 11 and the sun and the moon may be the parents. Genesis 37:10 10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” So even his father thought the sun, moon, and stars was himself, his wife and his sons (minus Joseph). So lets run with Israel and see if it fits in the Revelation scripture. 1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. If the woman is Israel, then did she give birth to a son? Yes. Sure it was through Mary, but the son came from Israel and the Dragon tried in vain to kill the child. Revelation 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. Babylonian belief encompassed the Queen of Heaven and her child. Perhaps by believing that the woman is Mary is a demonstration of being under the influence of Babylonian teaching. If so, we are told to come out of her and that her wine has made all the nations drunk.

I'm embarrassed for you that I have to spell this out. You must have never read this passage. If you had, you wouldn't have skipped this part:

“She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne.” – 12:5
(see also 19:15; Ps. 2:9)

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (942767 @ Sep. 18 2009,13:06)

Hi: So, is the woman (if it is Mary) in heaven or in the wilderness? Quote Rev 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.   Love in Christ, Marty

Remember I said that it is a type of Mary AND the Church.

v. 6 God protects the persecuted church in the desert, the traditional Old Testament place of refuge for the afflicted, according to the typology of the Exodus

The woman fled into the wilderness. The Church, in the times of persecutions, must be content to serve God in a private manner; but by divine Providence, such persecutions never lasted with violence only for a short time, signified by 1260 days, or as the same is expressed here, (ver. 14) for a time, and times, and half a time, i.e. for a year, and two years, and half a year. (Witham) — The Christians were accustomed to fly during the times of persecution into the deserts, to avoid the fury of the pagans. This was done by the greatest saints; and St. Jerome remarks, that it was this which gave rise to the eremitical state of life.

The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,13:51)

Remember I said that it is a type of Mary AND the Church. v. 6 God protects the persecuted church in the desert, the traditional Old Testament place of refuge for the afflicted, according to the typology of the Exodus The woman fled into the wilderness. The Church, in the times of persecutions, must be content to serve God in a private manner; but by divine Providence, such persecutions never lasted with violence only for a short time, signified by 1260 days, or as the same is expressed here, (ver. 14) for a time, and times, and half a time, i.e. for a year, and two years, and half a year. (Witham) — The Christians were accustomed to fly during the times of persecution into the deserts, to avoid the fury of the pagans. This was done by the greatest saints; and St. Jerome remarks, that it was this which gave rise to the eremitical state of life. The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12.

That is another theory. That the Church is the woman and the 12 stars are the 12 apostles (foundation of the Church). Yes, Israel is likened to the sun, moon, & 12 stars, and the Church is also likened to the new Israel or people of promise.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,13:44)

I'm embarrassed for you that I have to spell this out. You must have never read this passage. If you had, you wouldn't have skipped this part: “She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne.” – 12:5 (see also 19:15; Ps. 2:9)

No need for the embarrassment because the symbolism used here is a woman and if a son came from her, (Israel), then corresponding language can be used.

Even today, we can refer to Israel as a 'she' as we do with many things.

e.g., The Bride of Christ.

We don't refer to Israel or the Church as “He” do we?

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,14:05)

That is another theory. That the Church is the woman and the 12 stars are the 12 apostles (foundation of the Church). Yes, Israel is likened to the sun, moon, & 12 stars, and the Church is also likened to the new Israel or people of promise.

Theory? O…that's right…you don't believe that you can really KNOW what Scripture means.

That's no kind of life. You're traveling a road of doubt.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2009,14:08)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 18 2009,13:44) I'm embarrassed for you that I have to spell this out.  You must have never read this passage.  If you had, you wouldn't have skipped this part: “She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne.” – 12:5 (see also 19:15; Ps. 2:9) No need for the embarrassment because the symbolism used here is a woman and if a son came from her, (Israel), then corresponding language can be used. Even today, we can refer to Israel as a 'she' as we do with many things. e.g., The Bride of Christ. We don't refer to Israel or the Church as “He” do we?

The Church is Israel. The point is that this passage has a couple types that are connected. But you can't remove one (i.e. Mary) without hindering the full meaning.

You may want to read the fathers….O…that's right….you have rejected your spiritual birthright.

[Author]

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