My lord and my god&#33;

Participant

Paladin said:

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If the Father is the only true God [John 17:1,3], and the son of God is the son of the only true God [John 17:1], then he is not the only true God, but is HIS SON. [2 John 1:3]

Are you willing to apply your reasoning consistently? David said,

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YHWH is my shepherd

Ezekiel said,

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There shall be ONE shepherd

Jesus said,

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I am the good Shepherd

BY YOUR OWN LOGIC THEREFORE JESUS IS YHWH. Arians do not apply the “oneness” principle consistently. If the expression “one God” disallows for a plural unity then so does the expression “one shepherd.” Therefore, Jesus alone is the Shepherd and not YHWH. Then there is the “one Lord” principle too. Every tongue is to confess that Jesus is “Lord.” Since Paul also said that there is only “one Lord” then God is not Lord but Jesus alone. You seem apply the term “one God” as a little child who does not understand plural oneness.

Paladin said:

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Because they changed their testimony at his trial.

You're suffering from denial. They wanted to kill Him for claiming that God was His own Father BEFORE the trial (John 5:18).

Paladin said:

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The question is not “What is every word the Jews uttered in John 5:18;” the question is what was the testimony that was different in John 19:7? Why don't you try to focus on what I said instead of trying to twist everything I say into your own advantage?

What the Jews said in John 5:18; “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.”

How the Jews changed their testimony at his trial by what they said in John 19:7;
“He made Himself the Son of God” (John 19:7)

I did not say they changed their testimony about breaking the sabbath, and I did not say they changed their testimony about calling God his Father; I said they changed their testimony about who he MADE HIMSELF. Perhaps a remedial course in reading with comprehension would help you.

It is you who needs the remedial course in reading comprehension. You admit that in John 5:18 the Jews wanted to kill Him for calling God His Father. This means that He made Himself the Son of God BEFORE the trial. They wanted to kill Him THEN for the same reason they wanted to kill Him at His trial. So what “retraction” took place? In their minds the expression “Son of God” inferred equality with God.

I am not interested in what you think the term “Son of God” means. I am interested in what Jesus knew the Jews thought about the term when He made the claim. It is from this historical perspective that you are BOUND to interpret.

Paladin said:

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o.k. You have just set the standard for exegeting the passages. When I do the same, to ptove my point, You have no more right to object. I give you your point. If it is in the Greek text, it is officially what is meant. Now, show me the “trinity,” “triune,” “three-in-one,” “Theos 'o huios,” “omoousian” or any other Greek word that means the same. Remember, if it is not in the Greek it is added, and therefore not allowed.

I appreciate your concession on the word “idiov” in the Greek text :;): However, I am not bound to prove the trinity from the narrative because I have never claimed it teaches a trinity. I have claimed only that it asserts the deity of Jesus. I do not claim that any one single passage teaches the trinity. So don't argue with yourself. Argue the points I make specifically. I said specifically that the text asserts the deity of Jesus. To all Jews including John, Jesus' claim that God was His OWN Father implied equality with God. So the question is were they right or wrong? You must prove they were wrong.

Paladin said:

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But the Jews had made the same claim, that God is their Father.

Thinker replied:

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Show where a Jew claimed to be God's “only begotten” Son or that God was his OWN Father.

Paladin dodges thinker's question:

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YOU show ME where that was an issue in the reference material under consideration. In fact, You show ME where Jesus ever made the claim to be God's “only-begotten” son.

Wow! I don't see any anti-trinitarians siding with you on this one. Jesus said,

Quote

For God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

Was Jesus speaking of a sacrifice other than Himself who was the “only begotten Son”?

To All,
Paladin is now on his way to denying that Jesus was God's only begotten Son. Paladin is going down hill real fast now.

thinker said:

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The term “Lord” and God” are the same. Paul said that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is “Lord.” This is the fulfillment of Isaiah 45 where GOD says that “every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess.” So Paul is applying the prophecy to Jesus.

Paladin replied:

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What total unmitigated nonsense. Jesus is Lord of something God is not the God of, therefore, Lord is NOT the same as God. It CANNOT be.

It would have served you better if you had read Isaiah 45 and expounded it rather
than just dismissing what I said. YHWH said that “every knee shall bow to Me and that every tongue shall confess….” Paul applied this prophecy to Jesus in Philippians 2. SHOW how the exaltation of Christ is not the fulfilment of Isaiah 45. Explain why Paul would confuse us.

Paladin said:

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Being the son of God qualifies him to be a “form of God,” but does not make him God. And remember the standard YOU set above. Since the article in not in the Greek, you cannot add “the” to “form of God.” It is anarthrous. Jesus “being in a form of God…”(Phil 2:6)

A literal translation would be this: …”who being in God's form”….. That was a feeble attempt at tripping me up.

Paladin said:

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SON OF MAN IS NOT A DIVINE TITLE – GOD IS NOT THE SON OF MAN, THEREFORE THE SON OF MAN IS NOT GOD
Numbers 23:19 GOD IS NOT a man, that he should lie; neither THE SON OF MAN, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

I guess we must conclude then that Jesus was a liar because He was the Son of man.

The Son of Man was of heavenly origin,

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No man has ascended in to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven (John 3:13)

The Son of man had power to forgive sins,

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But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10)

The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath,

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Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath (Mark 2:28)

If there is a proof text that shows that the expression “Son of Man” in reference to Jesus is a divine title THIS IS IT. Only God may be Lord of the sabbath

There is more but these will keep you busy enough. Your conclusion that Thomas did not think of Jesus as God is circular because you assume that expressions such as “Lord” and “Son of Man” are not divine titles. But it would be natural for Thomas to associate the terms after Jesus said that the Son of man was Lord of the sabbath. For every Jew knew that God alone was Lord of the sabbath.

Premise 1: God alone is Lord of the sabbath
Premise 2: The Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath
Conclusion: The Son of Man is God

thinker

June 6, 2009 at 4:13 pm#132649

GeneBalthrop

Participant

thinker……….It also says we are the sons of GOD to, are we equal with GOD?

1 Jo 3:2 beloved, (NOW) are we the (sons) of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall shall see hime as he is…..> where is there any difference between Jesus and us at here.

Thinker, Saying a person is the son of someone does not in anyway mean equality with them. Where did you ever get that idea from brother.

peace and love……………………gene

June 6, 2009 at 4:20 pm#132650

Participant

Quote (Gene @ June 07 2009,04:13)

thinker……….It also says we are the sons of GOD to, are we equal with GOD?

Thinker, Saying a person is the son of someone does not in anyway mean equality with them. Where did you ever get that idea from brother.

peace and love……………………gene

Gene,
We are adopted sons. Jesus is God's “only begotten” Son. And Hebrews 1 says that the begotten Son's name is far above the angels. Are you far above the angels Gene?

thinker

June 6, 2009 at 4:41 pm#132653

Participant

Paladin said:

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Messiah will be a “second MAN Adam” therefore a created being

Paladin's “therefore” is a false conclusion because he overlooks the statements which follow. Paul said,

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The first man was of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord FROM HEAVEN

Only Jesus' flesh was created. The second man himself is NOT of this earth.

thinker

June 6, 2009 at 6:25 pm#132656

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 07 2009,04:20)

Quote (Gene @ June 07 2009,04:13)

thinker……….It also says we are the sons of GOD to, are we equal with GOD?

Thinker, Saying a person is the son of someone does not in anyway mean equality with them. Where did you ever get that idea from brother.

peace and love……………………gene

Gene,
We are adopted sons. Jesus is God's “only begotten” Son. And Hebrews 1 says that the begotten Son's name is far above the angels. Are you far above the angels Gene?

thinker

Hi TT,
Those in Christ are above the angels.
Angels serve them [Heb1]

June 6, 2009 at 6:28 pm#132657

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 07 2009,03:59)

Paladin said:

Quote

If the Father is the only true God [John 17:1,3], and the son of God is the son of the only true God [John 17:1], then he is not the only true God, but is HIS SON. [2 John 1:3]

Are you willing to apply your reasoning consistently? David said,

Quote

YHWH is my shepherd

Ezekiel said,

Quote

There shall be ONE shepherd

Jesus said,

Quote

I am the good Shepherd

BY YOUR OWN LOGIC THEREFORE JESUS IS YHWH. Arians do not apply the “oneness” principle consistently. If the expression “one God” disallows for a plural unity then so does the expression “one shepherd.” Therefore, Jesus alone is the Shepherd and not YHWH. Then there is the “one Lord” principle too. Every tongue is to confess that Jesus is “Lord.” Since Paul also said that there is only “one Lord” then God is not Lord but Jesus alone. You apply the word “one” as a little child who does not understand plural oneness.

Paladin said:

Quote

Because they changed their testimony at his trial.

You're suffering from denial. They wanted to kill Him for claiming that God was His own Father BEFORE the trial (John 5:18).

Paladin said:

Quote

How the Jews changed their testimony at his trial by what they said in John 19:7;
“He made Himself the Son of God” (John 19:7)

Paladin said:

Quote

Paladin said:

Quote

But the Jews had made the same claim, that God is their Father.

Thinker replied:

Quote

Show where a Jew claimed to be God's “only begotten” Son or that God was his OWN Father.

Paladin dodges thinker's question:

Quote

YOU show ME where that was an issue in the reference material under consideration. In fact, You show ME where Jesus ever made the claim to be God's “only-begotten” son.

Wow! I don't see any anti-trinitarians siding with you on this one. Jesus said,

Quote

For God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

Was Jesus speaking of a sacrifice other than Himself who was the “only begotten Son”?

To All,
Paladin is now on his way to denying that Jesus was God's only begotten Son. Paladin is going down hill real fast now.

thinker said:

Quote

Paladin replied:

What total unmitigated nonsense. Jesus is Lord of something God is not the God of, therefore, Lord is NOT the same as God. It CANNOT be.

It would have served you better if you had read Isaiah 45 and expound
ed it rather than just dismissing what I said. YHWH said that “every knee shall bow to Me and that every tongue shall confess….” Paul applied this prophecy to Jesus in Philippians 2. SHOW how the exaltation of Christ is not the fulfilment of Isaiah 45. Explain why Paul would confuse us.

Paladin said:

Quote

A literal translation would be this: …”who being in God's form”….. That was a feeble attempt at tripping me up.

Paladin said:

I guess we must conclude then that Jesus was a liar because He was the Son of man.

The Son of Man was of heavenly origin,

Quote

No man has ascended in to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven (John 3:13)

The Son of man had power to forgive sins,

Quote

But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10)

The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath,

Quote

Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath (Mark 2:28)

If there is a proof text that shows that the expression “Son of Man” in reference to Jesus is a divine title THIS IS IT. Only God may be Lord of the sabbath

Premise 1: God alone is Lord of the sabbath
Premise 2: The Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath
Conclusion: The Son of Man is God

thinker

Hi TT,
God is not His Son.
God was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself.
God is One-plural unity is a human construct to try to justify the trinity folly.
Jesus forgave sin and God, through Jesus, also gave the brothers of Jesus the same authority[Jn20]

June 6, 2009 at 6:29 pm#132658

Participant

Hi TT,
There is one Saviour and one shepherd.
God in his Sons does these things.

June 6, 2009 at 6:46 pm#132664

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 07 2009,03:59)

Paladin said:

Quote

If the Father is the only true God [John 17:1,3], and the son of God is the son of the only true God [John 17:1], then he is not the only true God, but is HIS SON. [2 John 1:3]

Are you willing to apply your reasoning consistently? David said,

Quote

YHWH is my shepherd

Ezekiel said,

Quote

There shall be ONE shepherd

Jesus said,

Quote

I am the good Shepherd

BY YOUR OWN LOGIC THEREFORE JESUS IS YHWH. Arians do not apply the “oneness” principle consistently. If the expression “one God” disallows for a plural unity then so does the expression “one shepherd.” Therefore, Jesus alone is the Shepherd and not YHWH. Then there is the “one Lord” principle too. Every tongue is to confess that Jesus is “Lord.” Since Paul also said that there is only “one Lord” then God is not Lord but Jesus alone. You apply the word “one” as a little child who does not understand plural oneness.

Paladin said:

Quote

Because they changed their testimony at his trial.

You're suffering from denial. They wanted to kill Him for claiming that God was His own Father BEFORE the trial (John 5:18).

Paladin said:

Quote

How the Jews changed their testimony at his trial by what they said in John 19:7;
“He made Himself the Son of God” (John 19:7)

Paladin said:

Quote

Paladin said:

Quote

But the Jews had made the same claim, that God is their Father.

Thinker replied:

Quote

Show where a Jew claimed to be God's “only begotten” Son or that God was his OWN Father.

Paladin dodges thinker's question:

Quote

YOU show ME where that was an issue in the reference material under consideration. In fact, You show ME where Jesus ever made the claim to be God's “only-begotten” son.

Wow! I don't see any anti-trinitarians siding with you on this one. Jesus said,

Quote

For God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

Was Jesus speaking of a sacrifice other than Himself who was the “only begotten Son”?

To All,
Paladin is now on his way to denying that Jesus was God's only begotten Son. Paladin is going down hill real fast now.

thinker said:

Quote

Paladin replied:

What total unmitigated nonsense. Jesus is Lord of something God is not the God of, therefore, Lord is NOT the same as God. It CANNOT be.

It would have served you better if you had read Isaiah 45 and expound
ed it rather than just dismissing what I said. YHWH said that “every knee shall bow to Me and that every tongue shall confess….” Paul applied this prophecy to Jesus in Philippians 2. SHOW how the exaltation of Christ is not the fulfilment of Isaiah 45. Explain why Paul would confuse us.

Paladin said:

Quote

A literal translation would be this: …”who being in God's form”….. That was a feeble attempt at tripping me up.

Paladin said:

I guess we must conclude then that Jesus was a liar because He was the Son of man.

The Son of Man was of heavenly origin,

Quote

No man has ascended in to heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven (John 3:13)

The Son of man had power to forgive sins,

Quote

But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10)

The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath,

Quote

Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath (Mark 2:28)

If there is a proof text that shows that the expression “Son of Man” in reference to Jesus is a divine title THIS IS IT. Only God may be Lord of the sabbath

Premise 1: God alone is Lord of the sabbath
Premise 2: The Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath
Conclusion: The Son of Man is God

thinker

The sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath therefore man is the lord of the sabbath we were all made to be lords of the earth. God told us to be fruitful and multiply and DOMINATE the earth.

We were not supposed to dominate each other or be lords over each other. Jesus told his disciples to not be like the gentiles who lord over each other.

We also were always capable of forgiving sins just as Jesus taught us to forgive to be forgiven. Jesus was freeing those who were oppressed by the priest and clergy who led the people with self-righteousness and not the righteousness of God.

Jesus came to Glorify Our Father in Heaven and let people know God. He told the pharisees and saducees that they take the key of heaven and not allow others to get in nor do they go in themselves.

P.S. I do think that less brutal communication and much more humility and reason would be best for us here to be in alignment with Godly reasoning. Let us not focus on attacking each other as persons and attack only the specific points and/or arguments themselves.

When we attack each other it makes us build resistance up to giving any good point credibility simply because of its source.

June 6, 2009 at 6:56 pm#132665

Participant

Hi BD,
Jesus is Lord of the sabbath.
The sabbath was made for men but does not make men lords over it.
Jesus now holds the keys to the kingdom and he gave them to his brothers to but not to any later self proclaimed prophets with new teachings.

June 6, 2009 at 9:16 pm#132672

Participant

Quote (Gene @ June 07 2009,03:23)

peace and love to you and your…………………gene

Hello my friend;

I do not think God was speaking through Jesus because he already told us he put the words in Jesus'aouth that he would say. It would seem to me he would be interrupting himself if he chose to speak through Jesus mouth after making such a declaration.

Thank you for the encouraging words.

June 6, 2009 at 9:43 pm#132673

Participant

Hi P,
Where does it say Jesus was preprogrammed as far as what he would say?
The words he was given were from God Who was in him reconciling the world to Himself.

June 7, 2009 at 12:49 pm#132723

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2009,09:43)

Hi P,
Where does it say Jesus was preprogrammed as far as what he would say?
The words he was given were from God Who was in him reconciling the world to Himself.

Deut. 18:18-19
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

God does not say “I will speak through his mouth” he says “He shall speak in my name.”

Jesus aknowledges the words, his speech, and his sayings;
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Then Jesus aknowledges the source of the message he taught his disciples; John 17:8 “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

Thank you for your input.

June 7, 2009 at 1:23 pm#132725

Participant

Paladin said:

Quote

Paladin,
There are certain statements Jesus made of Himself before His exaltation which cannot be applied to Him NOW. He anticipated that when He was exalted and glorified that ALL truth would be His own.

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I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all truth…..He will bring glory to me taking of WHAT IS MINE and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father IS MINE. This is why I said that he will take of what IS MINE and make it known to you. (John 16:12-15)

There it is my friend! The Spirit was sent AFTER Jesus was exalted. At that time ALL truth became EQUALLY Christ's, “ALL that belongs to the Father IS MINE“. Then he said that the Spirit would take of all truth which IS MINE and explain it to you.

You're still stuck on the Jesus who in the days of His flesh did not own all truth and therefore said that He spoke the words of the Father. I am stuck on the exalted Jesus who said that “ALL that belongs to the Father IS MINE“.

Te chief difference between your view and mine is that my view tells the WHOLE story of Jesus. On the other hand, you disriminate and discard that which you don't like. Do you believe ALL that Jesus said or not? Were you taught to read the Bible as telling a story or just as a document which gives “proof texts” for your beliefs?

thinker

June 7, 2009 at 4:04 pm#132731

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 08 2009,01:23)

Paladin said:

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Paladin,
There are certain statements Jesus made of Himself before His exaltation cannot be applied to Him NOW. He anticipated that when He was exalted and glorified that ALL truth would be His own.

Quote

thinker

The question I was addressing:

Quote

(Nick Hassan @ June 07 2009,09:43)
Hi P,
Where does it say Jesus was preprogrammed as far as what he would say?

I responded to the question “where does it say…?”

Deut 18:18 is “where it says it.”

Then, Jesus aknowledged where his words that he spoke came from

John 12:49 For I have NOT spoken OF MYSELF; but the FATHER which sent me, he GAVE me A COMMANDMENT, what I should SAY, and what I should SPEAK.

John 17:8 “For I have given unto them the WORDS WHICH THOU GAVEST ME; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

Quote

(Thinker)
The chief difference between your view and mine is that my view tells the WHOLE story of Jesus. On the other hand, you disriminate and discard that which you don't like. Do you believe ALL that Jesus said or not? Were you taught to read the Bible as telling a story or just as a document which gives “proof texts” for your beliefs?

My response does not comprise the “whole story of Jesus.” It was a simple question, requiring a simple response. It does not require me to supply all that I know about Jesus to answer the question.

As for your view telling the whole story of Jesus, it tells far more than the “whole story of Jesus,” because you tell of a pre-existance of Jesus that I do not find in scripture.

I do appreciate the change in demeanor of your post, and will try to calm down myself.

June 7, 2009 at 6:44 pm#132736

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Paladin…….Nick, does have a point, God was reconciling the world to himself through Jesus, This would be a good topic , to try to determin at what time did GOD give Jesus the words He spoke, was it at the very time He was speaking them, or before he spoke them. Was GOD truly present in Jesus (first person) or was He speaking before to Jesus. or both perhaps. Jesus said the FATHER was (IN) HIM, this references to a being and His presence in HIM. Also something to concider is that the Father lives vacariousely through us by His
SPIRIT indwelling US. That GOD may be (ALL) and IN (ALL). and like i brought out, Jesus told us not to meditate on what we would say because in that very hour it would be given us, and it would not be us speaking but the Father speaking through us. And remember it also say that GOD considers Us temples, ” no you not you (ARE) the temples of the Living GOD> SO i ask again could it not be possible that GOD considered Jesus' Body the same way, and in a first Person response said ,”destory the temple and in three days (I) shall raise it up. Now remember we have many scriptures that say (GOD) raised up Jesus from the dead, Jesus did not raise himself up. So thats why i believe it was GOD first Person speaking through Jesus. Do you follow my reasoning here brother. I think this would be and interesting discussion. would like more of your thought on this and others also. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

June 7, 2009 at 6:59 pm#132738

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 08 2009,01:23)

Paladin said:

Quote

Paladin,
There are certain statements Jesus made of Himself before His exaltation cannot be applied to Him NOW. He anticipated that when He was exalted and glorified that ALL truth would be His own.

Quote

thinker

Hi TT,
How come IS became WOULD BE in your mind?

June 7, 2009 at 11:29 pm#132777

Participant

Quote (Gene @ June 08 2009,06:44)

peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

Jesus said that the words he spoke were not his words. Since he was preaching the gospel, I assume those are the words of his reference.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

I have no quarrel with the fact God was in Jesus, just as I have no quarrel with the fact God is in his saints. But the question I was dealing with, was, “where in scripture, does it say Jesus was given words to say?”

All this other stuff is a different study entirely.

June 8, 2009 at 12:50 am#132780