My lord and my god!

[Anonymous]

There will be many believers who will read the one verse of Thomas' “confession” and proclaim long and loud that Thomas declared his faith that Jesus is God. But did he? If so, he is the ONLY one of the apostles who saw his “risen God” (which
implies there was a fallen God).

Everyone speaks of “Doubting Thomas” as though Thomas was “the doubter” among believers. The fact is none of the apostles believed the first eye witness accounts[Luke 24:11]; furthermore they did not even believe the evidence of their own eyes [v.33-41] SAYING IT WAS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE. [“FOR JOY THEY DID NOT BELIEVE”][v.41]

AND, Jesus denied being our God; John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR GOD.

So, WHATEVER Thomas was declaring, it was NOT that Jesus was God. I believe John tells it best, when he tells us “Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” [John 20:30-31]

It seems to me Thomas was declaring his newly developed faith in the resurrected Christ, AND in the God behind the deed who raised him.

If this is NOT the message of Thomas, then you have Jesus contradicting Thomas a a very crucial time in the developement of his faith.

Throughout his lifetime, Jesus worked miracles of healing, and the people saw the works and marvelled, giving God thanks for “giving such power unto men.”

“But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.” [Mat 9:6-8]

John 11:1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. 4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.” [John 11:1-4]

John specifically makes a point of telling us Thomas was with Jesus when he went down to raise Lazarus: “These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. 16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.” [John 11:11-17]

Who was it that raised Lazarus from the dead? “Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. 45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.” [John 11:41-45]

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Thomas knew these previous utterances of Jesus, and he also was privy to the inner circle of Apostles among the disciples. As well, he had even himself “Healed the sick, cleansed the lepers, raised the dead, cast out devils” by the power of God and by the commission Jesus gave him.

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” [Mat 10:5-8]

Thomas was one of those to whom was given instructions as to how to hande the gifts given to him of God – “19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but THE SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER WHICH SPEAKETH IN YOU.” [Mat 10:19-20]

(The difference between exegesis and opinion)
I can only imagine (opinion) what Thomas, and the others felt as they weilded such wonderful power at the behest of their Lord and his father; but wield it they did. “And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done.” [Luke 9:10]

(opinion based upon exegesis) Now, Thomas has been separated from the others and comes to the meeting place, having heard strange things of his Lord. But having
experienced the same powers of miraculous works among men, he goes into the place where they await his arrival.

Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, and seeing the prints of the nails, and all doubt finally and utterly removed, he expresses the only thought left to him, crying “MY LORD and MY GOD.”

Did he believe Jesus was God? No. He knew he himself had only recently been involved in raising the dead. He saw God behind the deed. And he saw his resurrected Lord. AS DID THEY ALL.

None of the apostles said to Thomas, “God is risen.” They testified “We have seen the Lord.”[John 20:25] Thomas already KNEW it was God who would raise him from the dead. “And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? 19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. 20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. 21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; 22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.” [Luke 9:18-22]

So Thomas, upon seeing resurrected Christ made the only connection he could between what he saw and what he had already been told to expect; God working a miracle to raise Thomas' Lord.

John concurs with this exegesis. “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” [John 20:30-31]

NOW it “dawns on him” as they say in the vernacular. He sees resurrected Christ by the power of God; that same “God power” with which Thomas was familiar, having wielded it for himself upon occasion. Thomas recognized the power of God as perhaps only twelve other men in history did. Thirteen when you count Paul but that was not the same ministry. It was the same power however.

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin…..Also i want to add to what you just wrote, when JESUS REMARKED, Father i only said that, that they might believe you sent me. He had Just told Mary or Martha, that if she only believed she would see the Glory of GOD, one could very easily think Jesus was saying He was GOD by that statement to Her , so His very next words were , Father i only said that , so that they might believe you sent me , Jesus was making sure that GOD the Father understood exactly why He said that to her. That statement and the act that followed could been very easily mistaken as Jesus positioning Himself as God, so he clarified that by his statement he made to the FATHER. This only proves you point even more…..IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

[Anonymous]

Quote (Gene @ June 02 2009,16:47)

Paladin…..Also i want to add to what you just wrote, when JESUS REMARKED, Father i only said that, that they might believe you sent me. He had Just told Mary or Martha, that if she only believed she would see the Glory of GOD, one could very easily think Jesus was saying He was GOD by that statement to Her , so His very next words were , Father i only said that , so that they might believe you sent me , Jesus was making sure that GOD the Father understood exactly why He said that to her. That statement and the act that followed could been very easily mistaken as Jesus positioning Himself as God, so he clarified that by his statement he made to the FATHER. This only proves you point even more…..IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene

That is the same situation for almost everything Jesus is quoted as saying, when those are then turned around to prove Jesus is God.

Thanks you my friend, for your input.

[Tim Kraft]

To all a thought: The word Ocean describes a huge body of water with a definite molecular makeup. One drop of the Ocean has the complete makeup as the entire Ocean. There are trillions of drops of the Ocean yet the drops and the Ocean are ONE together. I believe there is ONE God, ONE Spirit, trillions of aspects of the ONE! All from ONE! I believe ONE all encompassing Spirit could not experience itself for there was no reflection of itself to experience. One must become two to experience or know ONE. God chose to dwell in mankind for the ability to experience himself seemingly separate from himself. By Adam chosing to experience Evil this was accomplished. There was no evil in Truth but mankind chose to believe there was, therby creating the allusion of evil. There never was sin in Gods eyes. Man created the idea of sin, being a mistake or error that brought on punishment. Adam never sinned. There was no law. God did warn Adam that if he chose to experience evil it would be unto death. Yet no hell or punishment or sin for the choice. That is all man created religion. God never left man, man fell away from God by creating his own sins! Jesus came with the Truth to take away sin. Blessings to all, TK

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 02 2009,06:25)

To all a thought: The word Ocean describes a huge body of water with a definite molecular makeup. One drop of the Ocean has the complete makeup as the entire Ocean. There are trillions of drops of the Ocean yet the drops and the Ocean are ONE together. I believe there is ONE God, ONE Spirit, trillions of aspects of the ONE! All from ONE! I believe ONE all encompassing Spirit could not experience itself for there was no reflection of itself to experience. One must become two to experience or know ONE. God chose to dwell in mankind for the ability to experience himself seemingly separate from himself. By Adam chosing to experience Evil this was accomplished. There was no evil in Truth but mankind chose to believe there was, therby creating the allusion of evil. There never was sin in Gods eyes. Man created the idea of sin, being a mistake or error that brought on punishment. Adam never sinned. There was no law. God did warn Adam that if he chose to experience evil it would be unto death. Yet no hell or punishment or sin for the choice. That is all man created religion. God never left man, man fell away from God by creating his own sins! Jesus came with the Truth to take away sin. Blessings to all, TK

Hi TK

You say there is One God and One Spirit. I am assuming that you mean that God is Spirit and the One Spirit is God. If so then why do you refer to the “One Spirit” as “itself” rather than himself?

Blessings WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……….It can be rendered ITSELF, just as easily it depends on what translation you use. “For the Spirit ITSELF bears witness with our Spirit that we are the son's of God”. IMO

love and peace to you and yours………………gene

[Anonymous]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 02 2009,22:25)

To all a thought: The word Ocean describes a huge body of water with a definite molecular makeup. One drop of the Ocean has the complete makeup as the entire Ocean. There are trillions of drops of the Ocean yet the drops and the Ocean are ONE together. I believe there is ONE God, ONE Spirit, trillions of aspects of the ONE! All from ONE! I believe ONE all encompassing Spirit could not experience itself for there was no reflection of itself to experience. One must become two to experience or know ONE. God chose to dwell in mankind for the ability to experience himself seemingly separate from himself. By Adam chosing to experience Evil this was accomplished. There was no evil in Truth but mankind chose to believe there was, therby creating the allusion of evil. There never was sin in Gods eyes. Man created the idea of sin, being a mistake or error that brought on punishment. Adam never sinned. There was no law. God did warn Adam that if he chose to experience evil it would be unto death. Yet no hell or punishment or sin for the choice. That is all man created religion. God never left man, man fell away from God by creating his own sins! Jesus came with the Truth to take away sin. Blessings to all, TK

I conclude from your post you do not believe God inspired the bible to be written. The concept of “sin” is found throughout the scripture, and if it did not come from God it must have come from amn, which is what you suggest. If you do not believe in the teachings of the scripture, you do not believe in God. Do I understand correctly that this is true?

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

Quote

AND, Jesus denied being our God; John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR GOD. So, WHATEVER Thomas was declaring, it was NOT that Jesus was God. I believe John tells it best, when he tells us “Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” [John 20:30-31]

To All,
Paladin conveniently ignores the fact that Jesus distinguished Himself from all others by His statement. Jesus claimed that God was his OWN Father which was tantamount to professing equality with God,

Quote

Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill him because He had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God (John 5:18).

A Jew did not speak of God as his own Father. They spoke of God as our Father. Jesus' claim that God was His OWN Father is what got him crucified. This is a fact that anti-trinitarians cannot explain. Christ's claim to unique Sonship with God was in itself blasphemous.

Paladin said:

Quote

Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, and seeing the prints of the nails, and all doubt finally and utterly removed, he expresses the only thought left to him, crying “MY LORD and MY GOD.”

Paladin is blatantly denying that Thomas was speaking directly to Jesus saying, “My Lord and my God.” Paladin is engaging in what is called “pretexting.” This occurs when one forces other Scriptures in to a context rather than allowing that context to speak on its own FIRST. Paladin says that he is exegeting when he is really eisegeting. Thomas addressed Christ DIRECTLY and said to him, “My Lord and my God.” The narrative unambiguously says that Thomas directed His comments to Jesus,

Quote

And Thomas answered and said TO HIM [Jesus], “My Lord and my God.”

Paladin said:

Quote

Did he believe Jesus was God? No. He knew he himself had only recently been involved in raising the dead. He saw God behind the deed. And he saw his resurrected Lord. AS DID THEY ALL.

I want to comment on that part of Paladin's statement which I put in bold. Paladin says that Thomas did not call Christ his God but was expressing that “he saw God in the deed.” My reply is two-fold:

1. Jesus claimed that He was going to raise Himself up from the dead (John 2:19-21). He said this in the presence of His disciples. Therefore, Thomas would have seen Christ in the deed unless he had a very poor memory and he had forgotten what Christ said.

2. It had not been revealed to the apostles that the Father had participated in Christ's resurrection until AFTER Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out. It was not until then that it was revealed that God the Father and also the Holy Spirit had participated in the resurrection of Christ. In other words, based on the only information Thomas had at the time he could only see Christ in the deed. Therefore, the address “My Lord and my God” can only refer to Christ based on the information that Thomas then had.

Paladin's account of things is not in accord with the facts as they progressively unfolded.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 02 2009,22:25)

To all a thought: The word Ocean describes a huge body of water with a definite molecular makeup. One drop of the Ocean has the complete makeup as the entire Ocean. There are trillions of drops of the Ocean yet the drops and the Ocean are ONE together. I believe there is ONE God, ONE Spirit, trillions of aspects of the ONE! All from ONE! I believe ONE all encompassing Spirit could not experience itself for there was no reflection of itself to experience. One must become two to experience or know ONE. God chose to dwell in mankind for the ability to experience himself seemingly separate from himself. By Adam chosing to experience Evil this was accomplished. There was no evil in Truth but mankind chose to believe there was, therby creating the allusion of evil. There never was sin in Gods eyes. Man created the idea of sin, being a mistake or error that brought on punishment. Adam never sinned. There was no law. God did warn Adam that if he chose to experience evil it would be unto death. Yet no hell or punishment or sin for the choice. That is all man created religion. God never left man, man fell away from God by creating his own sins! Jesus came with the Truth to take away sin. Blessings to all, TK

Hi TK,
The Spirit of God is as the finger of God [lk11 /mt12]
Your finger is of you and utterly serves and represents you.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ June 02 2009,12:07)

Paladin said: Quote AND, Jesus denied being our God; John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR GOD. So, WHATEVER Thomas was declaring, it was NOT that Jesus was God. I believe John tells it best, when he tells us “Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” [John 20:30-31] To All, Paladin conveniently ignores the fact that Jesus distinguished Himself from all others by His statement. Jesus claimed that God was his OWN Father which was tantamount to professing equality with God, Quote Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill him because He had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God (John 5:18). A Jew did not speak of God as his own Father. They spoke of God as our Father. Jesus' claim that God was His OWN Father is what got him crucified. This is a fact that anti-trinitarians cannot explain. Christ's claim to unique Sonship with God was in itself blasphemous. Paladin said: Quote Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, and seeing the prints of the nails, and all doubt finally and utterly removed, he expresses the only thought left to him, crying “MY LORD and MY GOD.” Paladin is blatantly denying that Thomas was speaking directly to Jesus saying, “My Lord and my God.” Paladin is engaging in what is called “pretexting.” This occurs when one forces other Scriptures in to a context rather than allowing that context to speak on its own FIRST. Paladin says that he is exegeting when he is really eisegeting. Thomas addressed Christ DIRECTLY and said to him, “My Lord and my God.” The narrative unambiguously says that Thomas directed His comments to Jesus, Quote And Thomas answered and said TO HIM [Jesus], “My Lord and my God.” Paladin said: Quote Did he believe Jesus was God? No. He knew he himself had only recently been involved in raising the dead. He saw God behind the deed. And he saw his resurrected Lord. AS DID THEY ALL. I want to comment on that part of Paladin's statement which I put in bold. Paladin says that Thomas did not call Christ his God but was expressing that “he saw God in the deed.” My reply is two-fold: 1. Jesus claimed that He was going to raise Himself up from the dead (John 2:19-21). He said this in the presence of His disciples. Therefore, Thomas would have seen Christ in the deed unless he had a very poor memory and he had forgotten what Christ said. 2. It had not been revealed to the apostles that the Father had participated in Christ's resurrection until AFTER Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out. It was not until then that it was revealed that God the Father and also the Holy Spirit had participated in the resurrection of Christ. In other words, based on the only information Thomas had at the time he could only see Christ in the deed. Therefore, the address “My Lord and my God” can only refer to Christ based on the information that Thomas then had. Paladin's account of things is not in accord with the facts as they progressively unfolded. thinker

Hi Jack

Excellent!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi tt,
Luke 7:16
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Are these words consistent with each other?

Does it mean to you that all prophets are God?

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 03 2009,04:07)

Paladin said: Quote AND, Jesus denied being our God; John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR GOD. So, WHATEVER Thomas was declaring, it was NOT that Jesus was God. I believe John tells it best, when he tells us “Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” [John 20:30-31] To All, Paladin conveniently ignores the fact that Jesus distinguished Himself from all others by His statement. Jesus claimed that God was his OWN Father which was tantamount to professing equality with God, Quote Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill him because He had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God (John 5:18). A Jew did not speak of God as his own Father. They spoke of God as our Father. Jesus' claim that God was His OWN Father is what got him crucified. This is a fact that anti-trinitarians cannot explain. Christ's claim to unique Sonship with God was in itself blasphemous. Paladin said: Quote Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, and seeing the prints of the nails, and all doubt finally and utterly removed, he expresses the only thought left to him, crying “MY LORD and MY GOD.” Paladin is blatantly denying that Thomas was speaking directly to Jesus saying, “My Lord and my God.” Paladin is engaging in what is called “pretexting.” This occurs when one forces other Scriptures in to a context rather than allowing that context to speak on its own FIRST. Paladin says that he is exegeting when he is really eisegeting. Thomas addressed Christ DIRECTLY and said to him, “My Lord and my God.” The narrative unambiguously says that Thomas directed His comments to Jesus, Quote And Thomas answered and said TO HIM [Jesus], “My Lord and my God.” Paladin said: Quote Did he believe Jesus was God? No. He knew he himself had only recently been involved in raising the dead. He saw God behind the deed. And he saw his resurrected Lord. AS DID THEY ALL. I want to comment on that part of Paladin's statement which I put in bold. Paladin says that Thomas did not call Christ his God but was expressing that “he saw God in the deed.” My reply is two-fold: 1. Jesus claimed that He was going to raise Himself up from the dead (John 2:19-21). He said this in the presence of His disciples. Therefore, Thomas would have seen Christ in the deed unless he had a very poor memory and he had forgotten what Christ said. 2. It had not been revealed to the apostles that the Father had participated in Christ's resurrection until AFTER Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out. It was not until then that it was revealed that God the Father and also the Holy Spirit had participated in the resurrection of Christ. In other words, based on the only information Thomas had at the time he could only see Christ in the deed. Therefore, the address “My Lord and my God” can only refer to Christ based on the information that Thomas then had. Paladin's account of things is not in accord with the facts as they progressively unfolded. thinker

Alexander the great surpassed his Father.
George Washington surpassed his Father.
Abraham surpassed his Father

What is the meaning of “tantamount” as referenced in your statement? Do you imply “same identity?” Or do you imply
“equal status?”

Since when does sonship imply equality with Father? In what way?

Sonship actually establishes order of geneology, not equality.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi PD

Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,09:47)

Since when does sonship imply equality with Father? In what way? Sonship actually establishes order of geneology, not equality.

Really? So then you are less human than your Father? Or is it that you have the same identical nature?

You are at the top of the food chain because of your humanity.

As far as your nature as a human you are equal to your Father in every way.

The Word that was with God and was God was identical in nature to his Father.

”WHO, BEING IN VERY NATURE GOD”, did not consider “EQUALITY WITH GOD” something to be grasped, (held on to) Phil 2:6

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING”, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3

These statements are spoken of no other in scriptures!

Blessings WJ

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

Quote

Sonship actually establishes order of geneology, not equality.

Not in Jewish thought. The Son was seated at the right hand of the Father which was a position of equality in Hebrew culture. Christ is the Son of God BY NAME ONLY and not by generation. It hasn't squat to do with “order of geneaology.” Jesus EARNED the name “Son of God.”

Furthermore, Christ preceded David though he was the son of David,

Quote

I am the ROOT and offspring of David (Rev. 22:16)

You are imposing your Western ideas into the Hebrew culture. If Sonship simply referred to “order of geneaology” as you say then the Jews would not have accused Jesus of blasphemy when he claimed He was the Son of God.

thinker

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 04 2009,02:35)

Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,09:47) Since when does sonship imply equality with Father? In what way? Sonship actually establishes order of geneology, not equality. Really? So then you are less human than your Father? Or is it that you have the same identical nature? You are at the top of the food chain because of your humanity. As far as your nature as a human you are equal to your Father in every way. The Word that was with God and was God was identical in nature to his Father. ”WHO, BEING IN VERY NATURE GOD”, did not consider “EQUALITY WITH GOD” something to be grasped, (held on to) Phil 2:6 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING”, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3 These statements are spoken of no other in scriptures! Blessings WJ

Actually those statements are not spoken in your reference material either.

Quote (Paladin @ June 03 2009,09:47)

Since when does sonship imply equality with Father? In what way? Sonship actually establishes order of geneology, not equality. (WJ) Really? So then you are less human than your Father? Or is it that you have the same identical nature?

So, Lassie's son is less human than his father? Is that really what “son” means? Son addresses nothing whatsoever about species, or kind, or family, or phylum or anything else having to do with anything OTHER than a father / son as in progenitor / offspring relationship.

In Genesis 6, the sons of God went in unto daughters of men and begat a race of giants who were called “MEN,” not “Gods.”
Having God for a father does not make one God. It makes him exactly what Jesus claimed for himself, “I am the son of God.”

(WJ) The Word that was with God and was God was identical in nature to his Father.[/quote]

(P)
Nothing is said about the “nature” of the logos in John 1:1

Quote

(WJ) ”WHO, BEING IN VERY NATURE GOD”, did not consider “EQUALITY WITH GOD” something to be grasped, (held on to) Phil 2:6

If only you would learn to stick with scripture when you are quoting scripture.

“Nature” in the New Testament is “Phusis” in the Greek. Paul said Jesus was in a “morphee” of God, not the “phusis.” He was in a form of God. You cannot be a thing and a form of the same thing. And form is not articulated in the Greek.

Jesus, being begotten of God, was a form of God, but was not God.

Quote

(WJ) The Son is the radiance of God's glory and “THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING”, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3 These statements are spoken of no other in scriptures!

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

It does not say he is the person, but he is the image of the person.

So what?

Man is the image of God, but that doesn't make him God.

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

Quote

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; It does not say he is the person, but he is the image of the person.

Man is not the “express image” of God. Man is only in God's likeness. But Jesus is the “exact representation” of God. This means that when you see Jesus you see God Himself.

Quote

He that has seen me has seen the Father

No degree in rocket science is needed to comprehend this.

Paladin said:

Quote

It does not say he is the person, but he is the image of the person.

It also does not say that the Son is the mere image or likeness. It says that He is the EXACT REPRESENTATION. This necessarily infers that He is God. A necessary inference is equivalent to a direct assertion. This is Logic 101. Ponder the word “exact” and get back to us.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So you think Jesus was God Himself?
Did he not have to decide to obey the will of God in the Garden?

No he was a man.
A human vessel like us.

[Paladin]

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(Paladin)   AND, Jesus denied being our God; John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR GOD. So, WHATEVER Thomas was declaring, it was NOT that Jesus was God. I believe John tells it best, when he tells us “Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” [John 20:30-31] (thinker) To All, Paladin conveniently ignores the fact that Jesus distinguished Himself from all others by His statement. Jesus claimed that God was his OWN Father which was tantamount to professing equality with God, “Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill him because He had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God” (John 5:18). A Jew did not speak of God as his own Father. They spoke of God as our Father. Jesus' claim that God was His OWN Father is what got him crucified. This is a fact that anti-trinitarians cannot explain. Christ's claim to unique Sonship with God was in itself blasphemous.

(Paladin)
What's with this snide “conveniently ignores?” I did not “conveniently ignore” anything. It was not in my post. There are many things not in my post. Suppose I accused you of “conveniently ignoring” the issue of whether God is a spider? You would think it is a stupid statement. But you did not deal with the issue “God is a spider,” therefore you “conveniently ignored” the issue. Why don't you quit trying to make people look bad just because you can't deal with their posts?

You quoted my post where Jesus says his God is our God, and you try to prove that doesn't count because the Jews tried to KILL HIM?

The problem you are having is that you are trying to defend the position stated by the Jews who murdered Christ by their testimony; which testimony they changed at his trial. And you are adding a word to Jesus' own testimony. He did NOT say “God is my OWN father.” So quit claiming Jesus said God was his “own” Father. And quit putting your own conclusions in quotation marks (“,”) with a scriptural reference, as though your conclusion is what is contained in scripture.

Now, let us examine these Jews and their true intentions.
The Jews understood that Jesus was teaching the common folk a better way than the leaders themselves were.
Mark:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way. 13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, TO CATCH HIM IN HIS WORDS.

THE JEWS WOULD HAVE KILLED JESUS NO MATTER WHAT HE SAID.

AND HERE'S WHY
John 11:45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. 46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he not of himself: but BEING HIGH PRIEST THAT YEAR, HE PROPHESIED, that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

The Jews were already trying to kill Jesus before he said of God “My Father worketh…”

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

But the Jews had made the same claim, that God is their Father.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

WHAT JESUS SAID
“I and my Father are one.” [John 10:30]

WHAT THE JEWS HEARD JESUS SAY
“I and my Father are one.” [John 10:30]

WHAT THE JEWS SAID JESUS' WORDS MEANT
“thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” [John 10:33

WHAT JESUS SAID HIS WORDS MEANT
“I said, I am the Son of God?” [John 10:36]

LET US NOW EXAMINE THE CLAIMS OF THOSE JEWS AND COMPARE THEM WITH YOUR CLAIMS

[thinker's conclusion]
Jesus claimed that God was his OWN Father which was tantamount to professing equality with God,

[Jew's conclusion]
“Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill him because He had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God” (John 5:18).

[thinker's conclusion]
A Jew did not speak of God as his own Father. They spoke of God as our Father. Jesus' claim that God was His OWN Father is what got him crucified. This is a fact that anti-trinitarians cannot explain. Christ's claim to unique Sonship with God was in itself blasphemous.

[Jew's conlusion]
because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
[/quote]

JEWS TESTIMONY AT JESUS' TRIAL
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because “HE MADE HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD.”

So at his trial, the Jews agree with Jesus about what his words meant.
But the thinker agrees with the Jews accusation which they later retracted by their testimony.

(Paladin) Should I now accuse you of “Conveniently ignoring” the first part of the verse? That the Jews were already trying to kill Jesus for “breaking the sabbath” before he ever said “My Father worketh…” Or should I simply aknowledge the fact that it was not the focus of your position? I suspect the latter to be true, but everyone knows accusations are the way to make an opponent look bad.

(Paladin)

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Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, and seeing the prints of the nails, and all doubt finally and utterly removed, he expresses the only thought left to him, crying “MY LORD and MY GOD.” (thinker) Paladin is blatantly denying that Thomas was speaking directly to Jesus saying, “My Lord and my God.” Paladin is engaging in what is called “pret exting.” This occurs when one forces other Scriptures in to a context rather than allowing that context to speak on its own FIRST. Paladin says that he is exegeting when he is really eisegeting. Thomas addressed Christ DIRECTLY and said to him, “My Lord and my God.” The narrative unambiguously says that Thomas directed His comments to Jesus,

(Paladin) There's that word “blatantly” again. I did not deny that Thomas was speaking directly to Jesus, I said he “expresses the only thought left to him” becasue scripture painly says he “answered him.” I assumed everyone on line could read THAT for themselves. And especially since I was giving my own conclusion, instead of referencing scripture. That is deciseively different from your own example of using scripture reference, and quotation marks (“,”) to prove your conclusion was a direct quote from scripture. A “blatant disregard” for truthful representaton.

I see that eisegesis has found its way into the trinitarian's vocabulary. We'll have no rest from now on. Accusations is the only way you know how to discuss anything. Degrade, downplay, scorn, anything except rebuttal.

It would be eisegesis in my post ONLY IF I had pretended it was a direct quote from a referenced scripture, kinda like your remark on John 5:18 in which you post your own conclusion with quotation marks, and add a scripture reference.

Once again, you totally ignore the position, to offer scorn and disgusting remarks.

Why did you refuse to deal with the issue in my post?

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(Paladin) None of the apostles said to Thomas, “God is risen.” They testified “We have seen the Lord.”[John 20:25] Thomas already KNEW it was God who would raise him from the dead. “And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? 19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. 20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. 21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; 22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.” [Luke 9:18-22] So Thomas, upon seeing resurrected Christ made the only connection he could between what he saw and what he had already been told to expect; God working a miracle to raise Thomas' Lord. John concurs with this exegesis. “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” [John 20:30-31]

Instead of complying with John's exegesis, you falsely accuse me of eisegesis, and ignore the context surrounding the explanation.

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(Paladin)   Did he believe Jesus was God? No. He knew he himself had only recently been involved in raising the dead. He saw God behind the deed. And he saw his resurrected Lord. AS DID THEY ALL. (thinker) I want to comment on that part of Paladin's statement which I put in bold. Paladin says that Thomas did not call Christ his God but was expressing that “he saw God in the deed.” My reply is two-fold: 1. Jesus claimed that He was going to raise Himself up from the dead (John 2:19-21). He said this in the presence of His disciples. Therefore, Thomas would have seen Christ in the deed unless he had a very poor memory and he had forgotten what Christ said. 2. It had not been revealed to the apostles that the Father had participated in Christ's resurrection until AFTER Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out. It was not until then that it was revealed that God the Father and also the Holy Spirit had participated in the resurrection of Christ. In other words, based on the only information Thomas had at the time he could only see Christ in the deed. Therefore, the address “My Lord and my God” can only refer to Christ based on the information that Thomas then had. Paladin's account of things is not in accord with the facts as they progressively unfolded.

(Paladin) Here is a perfect example of your inability to quote correctly even when it is hanging in front of your face.
(Paladin) He saw God behind the deed.
(thinker) “he saw God in the deed.”

Does any one else see this? If I had said “He saw God in the deed” you would have jumped on it with both feet saying “right, he saw Jesus God in the deed.” So you change my words to fit your own strawman argument which even then you cannot defeat, because it is not my argument, but your own.

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(thinker) “1. Jesus claimed that He was going to raise Himself up from the dead (John 2:19-21). He said this in the presence of His disciples. Therefore, Thomas would have seen Christ in the deed unless he had a very poor memory and he had forgotten what Christ said.”

(Paladin) John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus did not say he would raise himself from the dead. He said “I will raise it up” which is a reference to his body, which is the church. When Jesus was being killed, if he had not been raised, the gates of Hell would have prevailed against him; the church was also being killed. If he had not been raised from the dead, there would be no church today.

When he was raised from the dead, he began raising his church by continuing with them forty days – Acts 1:3 “To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, AND SPEAKING OF THE THINGS PERTAINING TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD: 4 And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

All the scriptures tell us God raised him from the dead, by the Holy Spirit. He did NOT raise himself, because NO MAN could possibly do that. And Luke testified that “Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” [Acts 2:22]

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.[Acts 2:23] “raised up” is aorist ACTIVE. God actively raised Jesus from the dead.

WHAT DID THOMAS REMEMBER?
Thomas could well remember Jesus own words – “From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.” [Mat 16:21]

“be raised” is aorist PASSIVE, which means he did not raise himself. Do you really think Thomas did not hear this?

“And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.[Mat 17:22-23]
This time, “be raised” is
“future PASSIVE.” Both times the reference is to a passave action, indicating Jesus will not raise himself.

“Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.” [Luke 9:22] “be raised” is “aorist PASSIVE” in this verse. Three times Thomas has heard this testimony, and seen it in action at least once in the case of Lazarus, Besides the times he saw Jesus raising the dead, and when Thomas himself was involved in the same type of miracle.

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(thinker) 2. It had not been revealed to the apostles that the Father had participated in Christ's resurrection until AFTER Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out. It was not until then that it was revealed that God the Father and also the Holy Spirit had participated in the resurrection of Christ. In other words, based on the only information Thomas had at the time he could only see Christ in the deed. Therefore, the address “My Lord and my God” can only refer to Christ based on the information that Thomas then had.

WHAT WAS EXPERIENCED BY THOMAS? THIS IS WHAT THOMAS REMEMBERED. NOT A LATER REVELATION.
“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” [Mat 10:1-8]

“And THE APOSTLES gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and TOLD HIM all things, both WHAT THEY HAD DONE, and what they had taught.31 And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a while: for there were many coming and going, and they had no leisure so much as to eat. 32 And they departed into a desert place by ship privately.” [Mark 6:30-32]

Thomas had sufficient memory to remember that when Lazarus was raised by God at Jesus' request, it was Jesus who raisd him but it was God behind the deed.  THIS IS WHAT THOMAS REMEMBERED.

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. 18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off: 19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, which should come into the world.

28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee. 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him. 30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him. 31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there. 32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? 38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, FATHER, I THANK THEE that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Thomas was a participant in the most amazing sequence of events in history. And he himself raised the dead. And he was a testimony witness to what Jesus said about his own resurrection. And three times it is recorded that Jesus used the passive verb to describe what is soon to take place. Yes, Thomas remembered alright. Only it was not soon to be released revelation he remembered, but recent events experienced.

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 04 2009,10:55)

Paladin said:

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Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; It does not say he is the person, but he is the image of the person. (thinker) Man is not the “express image” of God. Man is only in God's likeness. But Jesus is the “exact representation” of God. This means that when you see Jesus you see God Himself.

You are defending a translation, not the scriptures. “Express” is not in the scripture, and “exact representation” is not there either. Those are merely close approximations of what the translators belief is.

The Greek actually says “Who being the radiance of his glory, and the representation of the reality of him…” Jesus is not the reality of God, he is an image similar to an antitype, such as is used to print a page of newspaper. They need a letter e so they use what is called “type” which looks like an “e” in reverse, but when it is stamped on the page, the antitype looks like “e.” Jesus is the antitype of what God is. That means he is not God. Just like the type is not “e” but is the reverse image of “e.”

He is the representaation of the hupostasis. People have for centuries made doctrinal dissertations on the hypostasis of Jesus as though there is a bible doctrien several hundred pages long explaining it.

If you actually consider how this word is used in scripture, you get a far different picture.

2 Corinthians 9:4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same [confident] boasting.
2 Corinthians 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this [confidence] of boasting. In these two verses, The term is in the dative form.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his [person], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our [confidence] stedfast unto the end;
In these two verses the term is in the genitive form.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the [substance] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. In this verse the term is in the Nominative form

You can see that when it is in the Dative form, it is translated
“confidance” and serves in the sentence structures, as indirect objects.

When it is in the Genitive form it shows possession.

When it is in the Nominative form, it is the subject of the sentence.

In each of these five verses, the exact verb is used, but in three different cases. We cannot conclude that Jesus is the
substance of God, because the only time the term is translated “substance” is when it is in the “Nominative” form.

In Heb 1:3 it is in the “genitive” form referencing “his person,”
of whom Jesus is an image or antitype.

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He that has seen me has seen the Father

Are you saying Jesus is his own Father? Let's hear the rocket scientist's explanation of what he thinks is being said.

Paladin said:

It does not say he is the person, but he is the image of the person.

(thinker)
It also does not say that the Son is the mere image or likeness. It says that He is the EXACT REPRESENTATION. This necessarily infers that He is God. A necessary inference is equivalent to a direct assertion. This is Logic 101. Ponder the word “exact” and get back to us.

First, there are over 783,000 words in the King James Bible, and “mere” is not one of them. Can we stick to what is either scripture or found posted in one's arguments? I did not say he is the “mere” image of anything. Just as when I say he is a MAN I do not say he is a “Mere Man.”

It says he is the image. Nothing more is said. So don't waste your time making it say more than it does.

And it does NOT say he is the “exact representation,” so save your breath. It says he is the image of the person. Therefore, he is not the person. There is no “necessary inference” involved, and no “assertion” prompting a necessary inference.

And it has nothign to do with “logic 101,” It has to do with correct grammar and proper translation.

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

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[Jew's conclusion] “Therefore, the Jews sought all the more to kill him because He had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His own Father making Himself EQUAL with God” (John 5:18)….So at his trial, the Jews agree with Jesus about what his words meant. But the thinker agrees with the Jews accusation which they later retracted by their testimony.

Paladin,
It was also John's conclusion. READ THE NARRATIVE CAREFULLY. It was John who said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. It is the narrator's commentary. If John was mistaken about Jesus' claims then do not invoke him in this debate anymore.

READ IT MAN! JOHN SAID THAT CHRIST MADE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD!

Paladin said:

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But the thinker agrees with the Jews accusation which they later retracted by their testimony.

You have confirmed what I have already said. Christ's claim to be the Son of God was blasphemous. If by “son” Jesus was simply speaking about “order of generation” as you say He would have not have been accused of blasphemy. You are helping me out. Thank you  

thinker

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