- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 03 2009,09:09) Nick,
Paul's gospel was not the same as Jesus' gospel. Jesus commanded Israel to “repent and be baptized”. Paul taught faith alone to all men of all races. The “repent and be baptized” gospel of Jesus was interim for Israel. Paul's “faith alone” gospel is everlasting for all races of men.blessings,
thinker
What was Paul's practice regarding baptism? What do the scriptures record? All quotes will be from the NIV.Quote
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (1Cor.1:14)First and foremost it should be note that Baptism was not
primary in Paul's ministry. His desire was to preach the gospel.
Baptism was only an outflow of that preaching. Thus it should be with preaching of the gospel today.
Quote
I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) (1C0r 1:14-16While baptism was not primary to Paul’s preaching, we do see that he practiced it. In fact, we see he baptized “households.” Still, it was not uppermost in his mind.
Quote
Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. (Acts 9:18-19)After three days of being blind and not eating and drinking,
after his conversion experience, one of his first actions -even before eating – was to, himself, be baptized.Quote
The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. (Acts 16:15)Paul had traveled to Philippi and found some worshipers there that he preached to. Note that the Lord opened Lydia's
heart to respond to Paul's preaching. She and the members of her household, with opened hearts, were baptized. Today,
only those whos hearts have been opened by the Lord respond to the gospel and are baptized.Quote
The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? “They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. (Acts 16:29-33)After the miraculous occurance in the prision the jailer asked pointedly, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They, that includes Paul, replied – “believe in the Lord Jesus (v.31) and they spoke the word of the Lord to the whole family (v.32). The resulting action is one that we might expect by now, “then immediately he and all his family were baptized.”Quote
Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized. (Acts 18:7-8)Once more we see Paul ministering to a whole household. This time Crispus, a synagogue ruler, was even brought to belief in the Lord. What was the result of his belief and that
of many Corinthians? I'm sure you have guessed it by now! “heard him believed and were baptized.Quote
Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:4-5)Here Paul makes a clear distinction between OT baptism of John and NT baptism into the name of the Lord Jesus. Once they understood, the result could and should by now be expected – they were baptized.
Reading nothing into the text and simply letting the facts speak for themselves, I conclude that baptism was not primary to Paul's preaching of the gospel, as he stated. It should not be primary to us. Nevertheless, Paul obviously included thepractice of baptism into Christ in his ministry and clearly separated it from any old covenenant practice as included in John the baptists ministry. When I follow Paul's example, I am in good company. As Paul encouraged, 1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
I leave you to the word.
Blessings!
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote Reading nothing into the text and simply letting the facts speak for themselves, I conclude that baptism was not primary to Paul's preaching of the gospel, as he stated. It should not be primary to us. Nevertheless, Paul obviously included thepractice of baptism into Christ in his ministry and clearly separated it from any old covenenant practice as included in John the baptists ministry. When I follow Paul's example, I am in good company. As Paul encouraged, 1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. Paul baptized before he was imprisoned. While in prison he received his new FAITH ALONE gospel. The author to the Hebrews said that baptism was of the “elementary principles” of Christ and that those principles should be put off (Heb. 6:1-2).
Hebrews 9:9-10 says that baptisms and other external regulations were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order (NIV). Verse 1 says that baptisms and external regulations belonged to the first covenant. Therefore, baptisms were old covenant.
Paul said that were were delivered from the law so that we may serve in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6). Paul said that when he became a man he put off “childish things.” Those were the things of the old covenant. I therefore claim to be the one who is in “good company”.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 03 2009,15:38) Paul said that when he became a man he put off “childish things.” Those were the things of the old covenant. thinker
Thinker,Quote Paul baptized before he was imprisoned. While in prison he received his new FAITH ALONE gospel. I beg of you a scripture for this one. Sounds like gospel according to Thinker.
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.
Let me see hear, “elementary teacings” that are old covenant and were done away with, according to Thinker:
1) Repentance 2) Faith in God 3) Baptism
4) Resurrection 5) Judgement
Paul learned in prison these were no longer valid under the new covenant. I don't think so!
Quote Hebrews 9:9-10 says that baptisms and other external regulations were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order (NIV). Verse 1 says that baptisms and external regulations belonged to the first covenant. Therefore, baptisms were old covenant This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
We visted this before. The writer is writing to Judiac converts who are in danger of returning to Judiasm. What he
says are old are sacrifices, food and drink, ceremonial washings (hands, etc.). These were the external regulations applying until the time of the new order.Thus he states, do I have to return you to the “elementary teachings about Christ:
1) Repentance 2) Faith in God 3) Baptism
4) Resurrection 5) Judgement
which clearly teach that those things that were external regulations that have passed. He has told them they should not have to start over with the Elementary teachings of Christ
because Heb. 5:11 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!Quote Paul said that were were delivered from the law so that we may serve in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6). He also said, 1Cor.13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
He felt he still had plenty to learn and that he did not know fully. You say he saw clearly – he says “poor reflection.” Oh,
that's right, he wasn't imprisoned yet. He learned the rest there. Still waiting for your scripture on that one!Quote I therefore claim to be the one who is in “good company”. Perhaps, I don't know the company you keepm but it is not Paul.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2009,09:38) Seeking said: Quote Reading nothing into the text and simply letting the facts speak for themselves, I conclude that baptism was not primary to Paul's preaching of the gospel, as he stated. It should not be primary to us. Nevertheless, Paul obviously included thepractice of baptism into Christ in his ministry and clearly separated it from any old covenenant practice as included in John the baptists ministry. When I follow Paul's example, I am in good company. As Paul encouraged, 1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. Paul baptized before he was imprisoned. While in prison he received his new FAITH ALONE gospel. The author to the Hebrews said that baptism was of the “elementary principles” of Christ and that those principles should be put off (Heb. 6:1-2).
Hebrews 9:9-10 says that baptisms and other external regulations were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order (NIV). Verse 1 says that baptisms and external regulations belonged to the first covenant. Therefore, baptisms were old covenant.
Paul said that were were delivered from the law so that we may serve in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6). Paul said that when he became a man he put off “childish things.” Those were the things of the old covenant. I therefore claim to be the one who is in “good company”.
thinker
Hi thethinker:We are saved by faith, and that is why the Apostle Paul said that he was not sent to baptize. It is through the preaching of the gospel, that faith comes. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
If someone is baptized in water before they believe or before they have believed and have repented, it does not mean any thing. That person will go down a dry sinner and will come up an wet sinner. There has has been no change.
The decision to be baptized has to come from a person's heart. As I have stated, it is an action of obedience to God showing that a person has believed and has repented. It is a public profession showing that one is united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.
Jesus said:
Quote Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.The divers washings to which Hebrews 9 refers has nothing to do with water baptism showing our union with Christ in his death burial and resurrection. How could it since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
I believe that the following verses refer to water baptism and is a continuation of what the author of Hebrews is saying in Hebrews 9:
Quote Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Hbr 10:21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;
Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Apparently, you feel that water baptism is included in the following:
Quote Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.Burt these did not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience according to verse 9 above.
But this is what the Apostle Peter says about Christian water baptism:
Quote 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. NIV
Quote 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. KJVI hope this helps. My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 03 2009,15:38) Quote Paul baptized before he was imprisoned. While in prison he received his new FAITH ALONE gospel Though Paul was imprisioned several times, I thought I would see what he did and wrote regarding baptism during his jail experiences.
COLOSSE
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
(Col.2:11-12)PHILLIPIAN JAIL
AC 16:31-33 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
An observation – they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. Result – they believed in the Lord Jesus and then immediately he and all his family were baptized.
EPHESIANS
Eph.4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit– just as you were called to one hope when you were called– one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
I don't see, even while imprisoned and writing to the churches
as well as sharing Christwith his jailer, that he did not teach
regarding baptism – even if, as you say, it was there that he received his “faith alone” gospel.My conclusion is you are mistaken when you attempt to put
believers baptism into the old covenant. For the last time,
Paul was clear on the difference between John's baptism of repentance and baptism into Christ – AC 19:3-5 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?””John's baptism,” they replied.Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.People today, out of love for Christ and His sacrifice for them,after coming to belief in Him, are baptized into the name of Jesus – just as Paul taught.
Seeking
Thinker said:
Quote Paul baptized before he was imprisoned. While in prison he received his new FAITH ALONE gospel. Seeking replies:
Quote I beg of you a scripture for this one. Sounds like gospel according to Thinker. Seeking,
I have answered this a zillion times now. Paul learned while imprisoned that service to the law is purely according to spirit now (Rom. 7:6).Seeking said:
Quote 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so. Let me see hear, “elementary teacings” that are old covenant and were done away with, according to Thinker:
1) Repentance 2) Faith in God 3) Baptism
4) Resurrection 5) Judgement
Paul learned in prison these were no longer valid under the new covenant. I don't think so!
Seeking,
Repentance for Israel was necessarily tied with works and therefore it was old covenant. Peter commanded Israel to “repent and be baptized” for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). The baptism was “in the name of Jesus” which you say is new covenant baptism. How could baptism in the name of Jesus be new covenant seeing that one coud not be saved or receive the Holy Spirit without it? Therefore, baptism was clearly an old covenant work. Your view implies that without baptism a man cannot be saved or receive the Holy Spirit. You must think this a small matter.The same is true with the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. Under the old covenant the souls of God's people went to hades to sleep until the resurrection. But under the new covenant the souls of God's people go straight to heaven to be with Christ. The resurrection of souls from hades occurred in the first century. Jesus even said that the hour for the resurrection “NOW IS” (John 5).
Paul taught that some of God's people would not “sleep” but would be instantly “changed”. This is the new covenant. In the new covenant the saints of God do not pass through death. They instantly go to be with Christ in their bodies from heaven.The judgment also is old covenant. Men will not stand before Christ as is traditionally been believed. Unbelievers will go immediately to damnation and believers will go immediately to be with Christ. This is new covenant. Under the old covenant all men had to await the judgment. Jesus said that the Father had committed all judgment to Him. Then He said,
Quote As I hear I judge Note that Jesus used the present tense verbs. Jesus judged men in His first coming. He told the Jews that the word He had spoken to them would judge them. There will be no additional word in the future. Christ judged them already.
So all resurrection and judgment occurred in the past when the old covenant way of doing things came to its end. The new covenant way is that we don't have to pass through death. We will be instantaneously “changed”.
You keep making an absolute distintion between the baptism of John which you say is old covenant and the baptism of Jesus wich you say is new covenant. Though the two baptisms may be distinguished under a sub-category they may NOT be distinguished under the general, old covenant category.
I have pointed out to you before that the text in Hebrews 6:1-2 says that “baptisms (PLURAL) were the “elementary principles” OF CHRIST. Therefore, the two were under ONE general category. And Hebrews 9:9-10 that the various “baptisms” (PLURAL) were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order (that is, the new covenant). Verse 1 explicitly says that those things belonged to the FIRST covenant.
You're correct that Hebrews warned against the Judaizers. That's what I am trying to do now. There is only one everlasting gospel which is faith alone. There is only one method of worship acceptable to the Father now and that is worship according to the spirit minus all works and external regulations. The letter of the law is not at all aplicable today. Paul moved the first century saints from those “childish things” of the letter and into the adult things of the spirit.
Again, your absolute distinction between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism does not hold water. The difference between the two was under a sub-category. Under the general old covenant category both were designated as the “elementary principles OF CHRIST“. All baptisms were of the FIRST (or old) covenant, Hebrews 1:1, 9-10.
thinker
Hi TT,
You wrote
” Men will not stand before Christ as is traditionally been believed”So you say
But this is written to the saved.
2cor 5
2 Corinthians 5:10 (King James Version)10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
I believe it is shown in Mt25 and lk 19
Mt25
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
We do need to be profitable servants.
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2009,02:26) Seeking replies: Quote I beg of you a scripture for this one. Sounds like gospel according to Thinker. Seeking,
I have answered this a zillion times now. Paul learned while imprisoned that service to the law is purely according to spirit now (Rom. 7:6).
Thinker,In your opinion you have answered “a zillion” times. And, in my opinion and the opinion of others who have posted, we have refuted your theories two zillion times.”
Nowhere does the Rom.7:6 text state Paul received his “faith alone” revelation. This is your addition. In fact, as usual, you ignore context and grab one passage you feel fits.
Running the context we begin in Rom. 6:1 –
Quote RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin– 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
RO 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
RO 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
RO 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
RO 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
RO 7:1 Do you not know, brothers–for I am speaking to men who know the law–that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
RO 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Striving to summaries, in context –
Paul begins in 6:1 to describe a faith walk that does not go on sinning. He takes them, and us, right back to what should have been theri baptism experience – DEATH.
Therefore, he says, But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. v.6:22
Note carefully that being set free from sin only makes one a “new slave” to righteousness! Note also the benefits –
the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.Moving on, he states – “RO 7:1 Do you not know, brothers–for I am speaking to men who know the law–that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?” RO 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.”
Paul now moves to a conclusion as to how one produces fruit
to life. It is by a death to the law, yes! and a living to the Spirit, yes! When one does that they are under different control – 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.The result is a spiritual walk – ” GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”
Now we come to your verse Rom.7:6 “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
His point has been when one dies to the law they begin a walk by the Spirit – The result is a spiritual walk – ” GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Where no longer are they, and we, slave to the old nature of walking in sin. When did this all begin? Well, remember where Paul started – RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order
that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.And you think Paul just woke up to this in prison. I think not!
Now, I am at the point that I do not believe any of us will change our mind until and unless the Spirit moves us. So I will move on to other things.I wish you and other debaters on the matter well as you continue. I close with one thought – if I am wrong, am I forever lost, in your opinion? I do not believe you or any others are lost whose opinion does not coincide with mine.
For it is true – it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote Nowhere does the Rom.7:6 text state Paul received his “faith alone” revelation. This is your addition. In fact, as usual, you ignore context and grab one passage you feel fits.
Seeking,
I got my verses mixed up. It was Rom. 3:21 where Paul stated His faith alone gospel,Quote But now the righteousness APART from the law is being revealed revealed…through faith in Jesus Christ, (Rom. 3:21) It is apparent that you don't like the Protestant “faith alone” expression. So I will adjust my terminology. From now on I will call Paul's gospel the “justification APART from law” gospel though the term “faith alone” means exactly the same thing. This should please you because I am using exact Biblical terminology!
Seeking said:
Quote Now we come to your verse Rom.7:6 “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.” His point has been when one dies to the law they begin a walk by the Spirit – The result is a spiritual walk – ” GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Seeking,
You missed that part of Rom. 7:6 which I highlighted in your quote. We were delivered from the LETTER of the law so that we may serve according to the newness of the SPIRIT.The word “pneuma” or “spirit” is opposite of “letter” and has no reference to the Holy Spirit. We serve in the spirit of the law now. When men speak of the “spirit” ot the U.S. Constitution they refer to the original intent and not the mere letter of it.
If you want to live under the letter of the law that's your problem. If you want to live under law like a child that's your choice. But you become a Judaizer when you require of others to obey the letter of the law. CHRIST DIED TO DELIVER US FROM THE LETTER BECAUSE THE LETTER INCITED US TO SIN AND AS THE RESULT DAMMNED US.
Do you think well of yourself because you think you keep the letter of the law? Then listen to Paul
Quote For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit unto death [condemnation]…But now we have been delivered from the law…so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter By your “proof texting” you can prove to yourself anything you want to prove. You can prove to yourself that you were saved by your works. But I know better. I know that I am a dirty rotten sinner.
Btw, when are you going to get around to my point that baptism was required for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit?
Seeking said:
Quote For it is true – it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– I noticed that you tacked on your confession that salvation is not a work at the very end. But it is clear that the larger body of your post was devoted to denying that salvation is by grace.
thinker
Hi TT,
We need the heavenly witnesses.1Jn5
6This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.Human traditions do not agree.
But they save nobodyJesus proclaimed the “Gospel of the kingdom”. Paul preached the “Gospel of grace”. Two different gospels.
Quote Jesus proclaimed the “Gospel of the kingdom”. Paul preached the “Gospel of grace”. Two different gospels. Incorrect.
“Entering into the synagogue, he [Paul] spoke with boldness for three months, GIVING TALKS and using persuasion CONCERNING the KINGDOM OF GOD.” (acts 19:8)
“And now, look! I know that all of YOU among whom I went PREACHING THE KINGDOM will see my face no more.” (acts 20:25)
“And he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the kingdom of God and by using persuasion with them concerning Jesus from both the law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.” (28:23)
“PREACHING THE KINGDOM OF GOD to them and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with the greatest freeness of speech, without hindrance.” (28:31)
ETC,.
He may have mentioned grace, but he dis preach about God's kingdom.
David said:
Quote He may have mentioned grace, but he dis preach about God's kingdom. David,
I think we agree. I want to get clarification from you to be sure. I believe that the gospel message evolved and that Christ revealed to Paul later in his life that justification was by faith alone.thinker
David…….Paul did more the mention about GRACE He expounded about it. AS the only true way to salvation. “For by GRACE are you SAVED and that (NOT) of yourselves it is a GIFT of GOD. You either believe that or not, and if you believe that then that should answer anyone questions about salvation. IMO
peace………………………….gene
Quote I believe that the gospel message evolved and that Christ revealed to Paul later in his life that justification was by faith alone.
There are many aspects of the good news. While I don't think it changed, at times, different areas have been highlighted. I'm not sure what you mean by “justification” was by faith alone. I've gone in circles with the “all you need is faith” (but of course, if you have faith, you have works) argument.My only point in that post was to show scripturally that paul did preach the kingdom.
David said:
Quote I'm not sure what you mean by “justification” was by faith alone. David,
Justification is the legal declaration by God that we are guiltless in Christ. It's as if we never sinned. It means that we are right with God. Justification is solely based in Christ's work in the behalf of His people. Under the old covenant before Christ died men were in danger of losing their right relationship with God.But in the new covenant justification is once for all. Though Christians ought to do good works they cannot lose their right relationship with God if they don't. Otherwise, who could be saved? God requires perfect obedience. But we never perfectly obey.
thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
