Mormons are Christians

[Phoenix]

Hi Kyle

Welcome to Heaven Net! LOL You will get Nick doing that to you. Dont worry, he picks on everyone that doesnt believe what he says.

But keep it up. Youre doing fine. At least those that dont know about the LDS can see what goes on in there.

Hugs
Phoenix

[Admin]

Quote (Kyle @ Mar. 10 2007,06:21)

Is there a way to edit or delete posts? I noticed a typo in the last sentence of the first paragraph of my last post. Here's the correct sentence: “Some would argue that the Bible never explicitly states that God will never reveal his word at different times through different men.”

Kyle.

You can edit your posts now.

[Kyle]

Exactly, Phoenix. Everyone else has been quite respectful to me and seems to get what I'm trying to say. Nick has seemed very much of an arguer thus far. The “I'm right, your're wrong” mentality I described on page seven. The funny part is that he doesn't even seem to get that I'm not trying to defend the LDS church. What's wrong with a little devil's advocate? Even if you don't agree with someone, you should still be able to try and understand them. I don't agree with the Catholic church for instance. But I would have no problem listening to a Catholic explain why he believes what he believes while trying to see things from his perspective. And if he wanted to hear my ideas on what he's told me, I'd be glad to tell him.

Oh, and thanks, heaven. I can edit!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (charity @ Mar. 11 2007,03:15)

Hi Is 1:18 you asked this question? Okay, just so I understand you correctly….you hold that there is only one uncreated God. Is-this-true? yes he is wrought with many over his Name's sake Eze 20:44 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have wrought with you for *my name's sake*, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD

Hi Charity,
hope you're doing okay! Well yes indeed YHWH has oftentimes “wrought” with Israel. As a side note it's interesting to me what Yeshua said about the nation of Israel in Matt 23:37:

Matthew 23:37
37″Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

But I'm curious to know how does this relates to the question I posed to t8?

Quote

Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. The covenant of the father rufused has even caused confusion of the true creator? Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? Jer 33:20  Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Jer 33:21  [Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

Yes, but Charity there is no confusion from YHWH's perspective:

Jeremiah 10:10-12
10But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King at His wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure His indignation.
11Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
12It is He who made the earth by His power,who established the world by His wisdom; and by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone,

Job 9:5-8
5″It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how, when He overturns them in His anger;
6Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble;
7Who commands the sun not to shine, and sets a seal upon the stars;
8Who alone stretches out the heavens and tramples down the waves of the sea;

He used His Creation to authenticate Himself as the One True God. YHWH alone created stretched out the Heavens….The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth (i.e. false gods and idols) will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.

Quote

If christ is on Gods throne as God the covenent is broken and David has not a son to reign on his throne Jer 33:21  [Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

Interesting. Charity I know you are a knowledgeable woman, and certainly you have a well developed theology but have you really looked into the “throne of David” (and corresponding eschatological) passages in depth? I think if you do you will discover that it is indeed God (YHWH) that will sit on the throne of David. Follow this logic:

In Acts 1:11 we are told that Yeshua will return in “just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven”.

Acts 1:9-11
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” 12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

Yahshua ascended from the Mt of Olives and He will return to that same place. “His feet” will stand on the Mt of Olives.

Zechariah 14:1-5
1Behold, the day of the LORD [YHWH] cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD [YHWH] go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Who is in view here? The person is designated “YHWH” but to my mind this is the risen Yeshua coming back to execute judgement on the earth. Here is my rationale:-

Yeshua declared He is coming again:

Matthew 24:30
30″And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (cf. Matt 16:27, 24:37; Mark 8:38, 13:26; Luke 21:27)

Revelation 3:11
11I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Revelation 22:7
7″And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly ” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.

The apostles, of course, were expecting and prophesied Yeshua’s retur
n:

Matthew 24:3
3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Timothy 6:14
That you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Timothy 1:10
10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

2 Timothy 4:1
1I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing

Titus 2:13-14
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Revelation 1:7
7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

When Yeshua does come He will come in the role as punisher/averger:

Zechariah 14:12
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Revelation 2:16
16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Revelation 17:14
14″These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Revelation 19:15
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

(Compare Rev 2:16 and 19:15 with Isa 11:4)

He (YHWH = Yeshua) will come with His saints:

Zechariah 14:5
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

Revelation 19:13-14
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

After which Yahshua that will rule the nations from Jerusalem:

Zechariah 14:9, 16-17
9And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [YHWH], and his name one….16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Isaiah 24:23
23Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.

Daniel 7:13-14
13″I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. 14″And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:27
27'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

(BTW, Yeshua is designated “Elyon” several times in the Daniel 7 passage, this is also a divine name, and means “the supreme”:

From Strongs:
H5946
Elyon
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5945; the supreme: – Most high.)

Several times in Scripture YHWH is ascribed this appellative (Num 24:16, 32:8, Sam 22:14, Psa 9:2, 18:13, 21:7, 46:4, 47:2, 57:2, 73:11….).

Joel 3:17
17Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain so Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.

Micah 4:7
7″I will make the lame a remnant; And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion; From now on and forever.

2 Timothy 2:10-12
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Revelation 12:5
5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Revelation 20:4
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

He will do this from the throne of David (an earthly throne), which His Father will establish:

2 Samuel 7:12-13
12″When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant
after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.13″He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

Isaiah 9:6-7
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness

Isaiah 16:5
5 A throne will even be established in lovingkindness, And a judge will sit on it in faithfulness in the tent of David; Moreover, he will seek justice And be prompt in righteousness

Luke 1:32
32″He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

Matthew 19:28
28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So it’s quite apparent that Zechariah 14:1-4 prophetically describes YHWH coming to judge the Earth. With that in mind consider the whole chapter:-

Zechariah 14
1Behold, the day of the LORD [YHWH] cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD [YHWH] go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD [YHWH] my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD [YHWH], not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [YHWH], and his name one. 10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD [YHWH] shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD [YHWH] will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD [YHWH] of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD [YHWH] of hosts.

In verse 13 we read:

“And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD [YHWH] shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.”

So YHWH will dwell in Jerusalem. Then, in verse 9, we read:

“And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD [YHWH], and his name one.”

So YHWH will be “King”. Verse 16-17 verify this:

“And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.”

What throne will the King sit on do you suppose? In my opinion it must the the throne of David, which is an Earthly throne which was established in Jerusalem.

So, I surmise that the Zechariah 14 narrative could only be prophetic of Yeshua’s second coming, Armageddon battle, and sovereign reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem, for all the scripturally supported reasons given. But here’s the kicker Charity – Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH in Zechariah 14: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21. Would the Holy Spirit-inspired Bible ascribe this exclusively divine name to someone who is not YHWH? I don’t think it would.

Quote

Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. Christ has been given authority to raise the dead and judgment from the throne that his father said sit though down and build it to all generations; God has rested from his works?

Yes Charity, God has rested from His works…..of Creation. But as I see it – He is still active. Here are some texts I found th
at appear to bear this out.

Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve [Heb: chayah] them all The host of heaven worships You.

Romans 8:28
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

1 Corinthians 12:6
There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

I stand to be corrected though.

Quote

Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. Many refuse to allow God to rest on the seventh Day and for Christ to be the author of the new creation

I’m not quite sure what you mean by this, can you explain?

Quote

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Charity, tell me what you make of these verses:-

John 12:45
45″)He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.

John 5:22-23
22″For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Many blessings

edited formatting

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Kyle @ Mar. 12 2007,02:48)

Holy crap, Nick. I keep saying over and over that I really don't want people jumping all over my case about things I don't even believe in in the first place. All I wanted to do was provide you guys with an inside look of the LDS view point. I know because I grew up around these people, and know more or less how they think and act. I can't help that I was raised in the church, and ultimately it doesn't define me. I'm a big boy. I make my own decisions. Let me be absolutely direct. You need to stop telling me all your reasons why the church I grew up in is wrong. I know of way more convincing reasons than you've thrown at me. I keep saying that that church isn't me. I'm not here to defend it, just to answer anyone's questions as to what they believe. It's like you don't understand what I'm saying or something. If you don't stop this instant I'll be forced to never post again. This is just rediculous, and I refuse to put up with it.

I agree.

How about we stop telling Kyle what to do and start looking into what scripture says so he can make his own mind up.

Please respect the man's free will and he has done the honourable thing in seeing if things are so. So why put him off that?

Could I also suggest that we stop hitting this guy up for info on Mormonism. Kyle has made it clear that he wants to start from scratch and see what is true.

If we keep asking him questions regarding Mormons, then how is he suppose to move on?

Some advice to you Kyle would be to start posting in other forums and discussions.

If you want to seek something out and there isn't already a discussion then feel free to create one.

Also because this thread is about Mormonism, that is mainly what people will be talking about here. One thing that we usually like to do is keep each discussion true to its subject so that readers can easily find a suitable discussion with content that will help them.

Anyway perhaps you could ask God, where to start. You may have already done so.

Maybe salvation would be a good place, or maybe what is the true gospel. I say this because everything else usually follows from there.

That is usually the pattern for a new believer anyway, and the gospel that you accept is then going determine the path you will travel down.

Up to you my friend.

[Kyle]

Thanks for the support, t8. But actually, anybody can feel free to ask all the questions they want. That's the whole reason I started posting here. I have 100% confidence that answering questions about a group of people I grew up around won't stop me from moving on or seeking out truth. I'm many months into my search and will contine to do what I've been doing. That's mostly consisted of studying the scriptures, researching things online, and occasionally setting up times to meet with people I come across in real life who's ideas I'd like to try to understand. I definitely have a non-arguing disclaimer now though. I really don't like the contention that I've felt from it in the past.

Oh! And I'm currently reading this awesome book I found at the library. It's called When Jesus Became God. It lays out the events of everything surrounding the Arian controversy and resulting council. Writen by a Jew specializing in religious conflict resolution, it feels more to me like unbiased history than one man's Christian opinion of those events. I'd recommend it to anyone wanting a more detailed understanding of what went on back then, why things played out as they did, and what it was like for those involved.

[Proclaimer]

OK that's good then.

I just have a simple question in that case.

Do Mormons believe the Trinity doctrine?

I think Nick pointed out that they do in a statement of faith he found on their website, but I was under the impression that they didn't believe it.

[Kyle]

Yeah, that quote confused me too. Just as Mormon 7:7 did when I first found it. If they do, then I was never aware of it. God was always referred to as our Heavenly Father, and Christ as his Son. If at all possible, I'd love to get a link to the page he quoted from. Anyway, all I know is that I and those I went to church with never declared anything I considered a Trinitarian belief. Terms like “Trinity”, “God the Son”, “God the Spirit”, “three in one”, “fully God and fully man”, etc were never mentioned. There was definitely a belief that those three work together in close harmony. The closest thing I can think of to a Trinitarian belief would be the use of the word “godhead”. It was defined as a term to refer to God, his Son, and the Holy Ghost together. Not as one person or God, but as beings in heaven working together that are set high above everyone else – us and angels alike.

[Proclaimer]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Kyle]

Oh! I completely forgot. There is a small statement of faith very commonly held in the church. It's a small document or creed outlined around the time when the church was founded. It's called The Articles of Faith. I'll past it below for anyone that's curious. I would say these are the beliefs that unify those in the church more than any others.

” 1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Kyle @ Mar. 11 2007,07:48)

Holy crap, Nick.  I keep saying over and over that I really don't want people jumping all over my case about things I don't even believe in in the first place.  All I wanted to do was provide you guys with an inside look of the LDS view point.  I know because I grew up around these people, and know more or less how they think and act.  I can't help that I was raised in the church, and ultimately it doesn't define me.  I'm a big boy.  I make my own decisions. Let me be absolutely direct.  You need to stop telling me all your reasons why the church I grew up in is wrong.  I know of way more convincing reasons than you've thrown at me.  I keep saying that that church isn't me.  I'm not here to defend it, just to answer anyone's questions as to what they believe.  It's like you don't understand what I'm saying or something.  If you don't stop this instant I'll be forced to never post again.  This is just rediculous, and I refuse to put up with it.

Hi Kyle,

I have a nephew in law that was mormon and I was really curious as to their beliefs. He doesn't seem to know what they believe in. I am enjoying this thread.
Don't stop posting.

I don't understand why it appeared like Nick was trying to save you from mormonism, when you made it clear that you were no longer following that faith. I think that Nick wants to make sure that anyone else reading this thread knows why they shouldn't go there.

Tim

[Kyle]

Hmm. That could be true, Tim. I didn't consider the possibility of Nick just trying to get through to anyone reading in general. But if that is the case, I felt it was gone about in completely the wrong way.

[Phoenix]

Quote

Just as Mormon 7:7 did when I first found it. If they do, then I was never aware of it. God was always referred to as our Heavenly Father, and Christ as his Son.

Sounds the same as SDA. I have never heard them speak of the Trinity either.

Hugs
Phoenix

[david]

Quote

I just have a simple question in that case. Do Mormons believe the Trinity doctrine? I think Nick pointed out that they do in a statement of faith he found on their website, but I was under the impression that they didn't believe it.

Quote

Yeah, that quote confused me too. Just as Mormon 7:7 did when I first found it.

I think it was I who quoted those quotes from wikipedia and Morom 7:7.
I'm trying to reconcile what Kyle says about not knowing that they believe in a trinity of sorts with what the encyclopedia's and Mormon 7:7 says.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Found this
“The Doctrinal Exclusion: Trinity and the Nature of God
“If by 'the doctrine of the Trinity' one means the New Testament teaching that there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, all three of whom are fully divine, then Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. It is as simple as that. The Latter-day Saints' first article of faith, written by Joseph Smith in 1842, states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost……However, if by “the doctrine of the Trinity” one means the doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon and elaborated upon by subsequent theologians and councils–that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence–then Latter-day Saints do not believe it. They do not believe it, because it is not biblical. Words central to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity –words like coequal, consubstantial, and circumincession, or the word trinity itself, for that matter–are not found in scripture. ” Are Mormons Christian? “

[charity]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2007,22:04)

Hi, Found this “The Doctrinal Exclusion: Trinity and the Nature of God “If by 'the doctrine of the Trinity' one means the New Testament teaching that there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, all three of whom are fully divine, then Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. It is as simple as that. The Latter-day Saints' first article of faith, written by Joseph Smith in 1842, states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost……However, if by “the doctrine of the Trinity” one means the doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon and elaborated upon by subsequent theologians and councils–that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence–then Latter-day Saints do not believe it. They do not believe it, because it is not biblical. Words central to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity –words like coequal, consubstantial, and circumincession, or the word trinity itself, for that matter–are not found in scripture. ” Are Mormons Christian? “

The heart and mouth have to agree fully

I have tried to explain many times that people believe the trinity; even though they announce with the lips that they do not the words they say from the heart speck of a trinty trinity.
To be born of God by the Holy Ghost we all need a father seed as Christ had David and the Holy Ghost {God} one God,one father that performs between a father and Son a miracle of a seed predestinated to grow up in the stall and be waxed strong in spirit till their showing time. As we follow Christ.
We first must have the mystery of God and the father and the Son for us also to follow and have a father seed as David within us.
And then the father David and Christ have one father above. They both have One Father In heaven
The fathers from past PROMISED THE NEW LIFE and the children INHERITORS BEING us
preformed by the holy Ghost, even our own earthly fathers are children with us in this age of grace; needing a father seed to be born of God PRFORMED BY THE HOLY GHOST
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The seed once died in their sins and returned to the dust; EVEN IF FOUND WORTHY,and THE SEED is replanted by the Holy Ghost dAVID IN CHRIST;Sin is now forgiven, if the seed lives under the curse of the law OLD COVENENT it proclaims Sin still lives; when God HAS removed sin from the world east to west THEY REMAIN AND SIT IN SIN.
BUT BY GRACE ALL MEN ARE SAVED ONLY BY SEED; TO OBTAIN ETERNAL SALVATION BY BELEIVING RIGHTLY SIN HAS PASSED AWAY WITH THE ADAM CREATION.

Hbr 11:38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.
Hbr 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

WE HAVE TO DO THIS BY BEING BORN AGAIN OF A GOOD SEED BY THE TRANSPORTING OF THE HOLY GHOST AS Christ has his father David in him to made perfect the seed of Israel edit;MUST FOLLOW CHRIST

[charity]

My thoughts only

Many years before Christ ascended to earth, even the wicked believed that that the resurrection of life would come upon the earth.
They thought and assumed in their own minds how this should take place a little like we all do
They mummified people in their belief, they removed organs from some in hope that the rising from the grave would fail
God did rise elected from the graves so we would understand that he perform David’s convent which was the beginning of people knowing this should come on the world
David began and preached the grace of God to all men, even the wicked, that is why the 8th king is of the seven king’s revelations, by resurrection of life.
God has done also made the womb of woman the grave from which we are born again, cause for only the faithful that believe, even as Christ the king was born as baby, the three wise men new of him by the David’s covenant harkens and hear and your soul shall live.

I believe Now is the judgment of this world and Gods fury will finish the days of final judgment my
I believe that the dust creation have the promise of resurrection of life for REASON they could not be transformed and perished, as we have been recreated to be transformed , Having the author Christ Jesus a leader to receive knowledge of salvation to what God had already predetermined from the beginning to perform; We being not in need of resurrection of life but having the eternal life at hand to be able willing receive the power of death swallowed up TO wit and by faith we enter death as Christ did; why if we are made alive are we tormented to make another resurrection after death we don’t go to the grave like the dust creation that needed resurrecting; We are made alive and court up into in heavenly places to be offered up at the end of our life; Take part in the first resurrection we have one already; by this the unbelieving are judged dead at the end of the life that was given by not seeking to put on the incorruptible Man.

[charity]

Also

If you notice the resurrection of life is in an transitions period between ages and creations where all rise from dust even the wicked, and have been dead once, and many are lead to righteousness transformed it is located in the middle of ages not the end of time? It is never prophesied as only the perfect rising. It is designed to be seen as the grace of God to all men, starting from Christ time even those that sleep through it today do not know God as Jehovah

Wicked to everlasting life some to shame all with grace offered
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

The battle of knowledge of truth to rising preached
Dan 12:3  And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Christ announces Now the vision is to happen, the new life is in him, he is the first fruits of them that slept

Jhn 5:25  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jhn 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Grace to all the old creation wicked to rise and be consumed even from the womb grave.
Jhn 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Edit; thought they preach Christ has IS raised FROM the dead' the dead with him rise not at all to their knowledge, they are found to be false witness IN VAIN BELEIF
Though THEY baptize TO RISE THE DEAD THE DEAD RISE NOT AT ALL
They cover the blood of slain and the saints cannot rise with his dead body

1Cr 15:15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cr 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cr 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Selah resurrection of life, fathers promised, we the children cover the promise
Act 26:6  And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
Act 26:7  Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
Act 26:8  Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The mormons are the only group I know that baptise for the dead citing 1Cor 15. In whose name do they baptise?
From the BBC site
Baptism for the Dead
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that a dead person can be baptised by proxy, which means that a Mormon can be baptised on behalf of someone who has already died.

The Church teaches that because millions of people lived and died without learning the teachings of Jesus Christ and without belonging to his Church, ordinances such as baptism and eternal marriage should be carried out on earth on their behalf.

Mormons believe that this restores a practice followed by the early Christians.

Mormons believe that baptising an ancestor who died without hearing the true gospel as restored by the Church is a demonstration of their love for that person.

In order to help Mormons track down the names of their ancestors so that they can baptise them the Church has built the largest genealogical database in the world

Joseph Smith said that it was “our privilege to act as an agent and be baptised for the remission of sins for and in behalf of our dead kindred who have not heard the gospel of the fulness of it.”

Ceremony
Such baptisms can only be performed in special fonts in Mormon Temples.

Women act as proxies for women and men for men. There are witnesses present and a proper record is kept, although the ceremony does not make the person for whom the baptism is performed a Mormon.

Confirmation and higher ordinances can also be performed by proxy.

What's the point?
Mormons believe that this doctrine ends the injustice millions of people being damned just because they died without learning of the gospel of Christ.

Traditional faith says that people are judged totally on what they do in this life. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't completely agree and believes that there is a second chance for everyone.

In Mormon belief, every soul spends time after death in a place where they are given the chance to hear and accept the gospel.

If they accept the gospel they must be baptised in order to enter into a covenant with Christ and have their sins washed away. But at this stage the person is a spirit without a body and so they can't be baptised because this involves total immersion of their body in water. Hence the need for proxy baptism, using someone else's body.

Other Faiths
There have been complaints that particularly enthusiastic Mormons have been carrying out proxy baptisms for prominent historical and religious figures including the members of other faiths.

For example the Ba'al Shem Tov, the 18th century founder of the Hasidic Jewish movement, was baptised a Mormon.

In 1995 the Church agreed to halt proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims and other deceased Jews, and to remove the names of all Holocaust victims from the files. Such names are now only accepted if they are resubmitted by a direct descendant or if consent is obtained from the dead person's immediate family.

Since that agreement Church genealogists have stripped hundreds of thousands of Jewish names from baptismal records.

Theological problem
Members of other faiths argue that it is just plain wrong to baptise dead people and make them Mormons when they can't have any say in the matter.

Mormons say that this is a fundamental error. No-one has to accept a proxy baptism. Just as the soul in paradise has a free choice to accept or reject the true gospel, they have a free choice to accept or reject the baptism.

If they choose to accept the gospel, the proxy baptism means that they are fully equipped to move on in their spiritual life.

[NickHassan]

ps
Salvation for the LDS
The Mormon Doctrine of Salvation
Salvation is eternal life. For Mormons the ideal of salvation is to live forever as a family in the highest heaven of the celestial kingdom.

Mormons believe that human beings get salvation both through the grace of God and their own actions.

Part of the work of salvation has been done by the atonement of Jesus Christ, in that all human beings are guaranteed resurrection, but to attain the full quality of eternal life, human beings also have work to do.

Mormons believe that people arrive in this world without sin, but that they soon misbehave and need to be saved from the consequences of their own actions.

To live close to God, a person must have dealt with all the sins in their life. People have a choice of what sins they commit, and they have a free choice of what to do to put things right.

For a Mormon to achieve salvation they must do the following:

Believe in Jesus Christ.
Be baptised into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands by a person with priesthood authority.
Endure the tests of their life on earth.
Follow the teachings of Christ and his Apostles.
Keep God's commandments.
Repent of their sins.
Undo any wrongs they may commit.
Treat other people in the way they would want to be treated.
To reach the highest level of glory, a person must also have been sealed in an eternal marriage in a Mormon temple.

The third of the Mormon Articles of Faith contains the core of the Mormon doctrine of Salvation:

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
The Fall of Man
The Fall of Man is the term used to describe the misbehaviour of Adam and Eve, and their eviction from the Garden of Eden.

Mormons do not believe in the idea of original sin – that all human beings are tarnished with sin from birth because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.

Mormons believe that eating the forbidden fruit was not wrong in itself but was a transgression of God's instructions.

“We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.” Article 2 of the Articles of Faith
However Mormons also believe that the Fall was a necessary part of God's plan, that it was necessary for human beings to achieve exaltation.

This is because human beings have to go through bodily life on earth as part of their spiritual development, and if Adam and Eve had not “fallen” this would not happen.

“The Lord never intended that we should partake of the tree of life and thereby gain full access to perfecting grace before we had stumbled and groped to learn all we can from the disappointments and surprises of this vale of tears.” Elder Bruce C.Hafen
That's why Mormons hold Adam and Eve in high regard, unlike other Christians, because if they had not fallen the whole plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

[Author]

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