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David said:
Quote Jehovah, Jesus and others are referred to by the word “savior.”
David,Who else is called “the Savior.” Only God and Jesus are called “THE Savior.”
And who else is a Savior that owns us as His own people?
“looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.”
The late great Logician Gordon H. Clark said that “a word is defined by the groups of words which surround it.” The word “Savior” in Titus 2:13-14 is defined by all that is said BEFORE and AFTER it. What other “Savior” purchased from all of mankind in all ages a people for HIS OWN possession?
In Titus 2:13-14 the groups of words that surround and modify the word “Savior” clearly indicate that Jesus Christ is a Savior who is in a class all by Himself!
David:
Quote I do hold that without Jehovah, there can be no other saviors.
Anti-trinitarian insincerity and inconsistency is exposed! You certainly would not treat Isaiah 44:6 in such a manner.Jehovah clearly meant that to the people of God there is no savior besides Jehovah. Jesus is the Savior to the people of God. Therefore, Jesus is Jehovah.
Major premise: There is no Savior besides Jehovah to the people of God
Minor premise: Jesus is the Savior to the people of God
Conclusion: Therefore, Jesus is JehovahYour desperation shows David. First you come up with a syllogism which was not valid because you did not compare translations and because the minor premise did not contain the proper elements.
Now you try to make Jesus a “savior” in a common sense ignoring that He is “the Savior” and is in a class all by Himself.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
Hi Thinker,People need: “BIBLE PERCEPTION“=151, to understand “BIBLE TRUTH“=117 ! (AKJV Eph.4:22-24)
There is NO contradiction there! You should really learn what the bible teaches…
“The Savior”=117 is [117=יהוה האלהים](JEHOVAH GOD); Known as “GOD The Father”=117!God's Name [יהוה] translates DIRECTLY into English as “YHVH”=63
The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63 !
Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth
is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as
[“The Latter Rain“=151 and “former rain“=117] unto the earth.I added “Color” to help you grasp the “Ideas” God has put forth in His Word!
THE “THREE” MAIN (Called:”The Trinity”=148) “FEASTS OF GOD” are Called…1) “The Passover”=148 “The Passover”: made possible “Pentecost”=117
“Messiah: Jesus”=148 “JESUS CHRIST“=151 was the “Testator”=151!2) “Pentecost”=117 Started the “God Spirit”=117(Holy Spirit), which
“Former Rain”=117 is “GOD THE FATHER”=117 reigning in Mankind!3) “Feast of Booths”=151 begins The “HOLY SPIRIT”=151(God The Father)
“The Latter Rain”=151 “Tabernacles Feast”=151; the culmination of the “THREE”!A Personal Pentecost for ALL Believers!
Jesus now sits at (the head of the corner) the right hand of “GOD The Father”=117;
Geometry(Block Geomttry=151) and Gematria(The God Numbers=151) can CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE this!
“The Large Box”=117 represents “GOD The Father”=117, “The Box”=74 inside represents “Jesus”=74!
Psalm 110:1-2 The LORD (יהוה YÄ-hä-vā) said unto my Lord (יהשוע YÄ-shü-ă),
Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength (“HolySpirit“)
out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. (Psalm 124:7-125:1)The “Day of The LORD” is the LAST of the “THREE” great feasts; which we are NOW in!
GOD is indeed ruling: even in the midst of his enemies! (Eccl.9:12-16 / Daniel 11:18)“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13=15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
thinkerHave you ever thought that without God, meaning the Father, the son, Jesus, could not save us?
And without Jesus, God could not save us.
We sin against God/Father, not against the son/Jesus; it was Jesus that died in our stead for our sins, but it is the Father that forgives us our sins for Christs sake; so, you see, we need both for us to be saved.Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,00:26) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
thinkerHave you ever thought that without God, meaning the Father, the son, Jesus, could not save us?
And without Jesus, God could not save us.
We sin against God/Father, not against the son/Jesus; it was Jesus that died in our stead for our sins, but it is the Father that forgives us our sins for Christs sake; so, you see, we need both for us to be saved.Georg
Georg,Have you ever thought that if God did not become one of us He could not know first hand what it is like to be human?
Have you ever thought that it was not the Father who is the Savior personally? The Father is the Savior through the Son. The Son is the Savior personally.
The Father was not personally spit upon was He? The Father was not personally beaten with whips that cut His flesh was He? The Father did not personally stand before Pilate did He? The Father did not personally have nails driven through His flesh while hanging on splintered wood did He?
Have you ever thought who had it the easiest?
“By HIS (Christ's) stripes we are healed.”
thinker
Thinker……….Right!, He that created Us and everything in existence , Just is not smart enough to understand us. Give us a break!> I have no idea where you get this stuff from, surely not scripture. That is truly human reasoning without scriptural support. Show us Where this is the only GOD could understand us, is to become a Human Being. Man is there no end to this trinitarian non sense?
peace and love………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2010,04:08) Thinker……….Right!, He that created Us and everything in existence , Just is not smart enough to understand us. Give us a break!> I have no idea where you get this stuff from, surely not scripture. That is truly human reasoning without scriptural support. Show us Where this is the only GOD could understand us, is to become a Human Being. Man is there no end to this trinitarian non sense? peace and love………gene
Uh Gene….The Father said that Jesus created everything.8But to the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands:
.The One who created us became like us! Don't give me your interpretation of old testament verses which “prove” that the Creator is not Jesus. The Father's own interpretation of the old testament is that it was talking about Christ.
The Father quoted Psalm 102:105-107 and applied it to Christ. The Father said that His Son is the Creator.
I take the Father's interpretation over yours Bub!
Our Creator (Jesus) became flesh and became like us. Our Creator knows first hand what it means to be human.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,01:11) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,00:26) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
thinkerHave you ever thought that without God, meaning the Father, the son, Jesus, could not save us?
And without Jesus, God could not save us.
We sin against God/Father, not against the son/Jesus; it was Jesus that died in our stead for our sins, but it is the Father that forgives us our sins for Christs sake; so, you see, we need both for us to be saved.Georg
Georg,Have you ever thought that if God did not become one of us He could not know first hand what it is like to be human?
Have you ever thought that it was not the Father who is the Savior personally? The Father is the Savior through the Son. The Son is the Savior personally.
The Father was not personally spit upon was He? The Father was not personally beaten with whips that cut His flesh was He? The Father did not personally stand before Pilate did He? The Father did not personally have nails driven through His flesh while hanging on splintered wood did He?
Have you ever thought who had it the easiest?
“By HIS (Christ's) stripes we are healed.”
thinker
thinkerI had to look at the name who wrote this twice, for a moment I thought it was Nick, he turns everything around too.
Georg
Thinker………Suppositions are only that, they are not scriptural fact. Just TRINITARIAN GARBAGE AND ONLY SERVE TO TWIST THE TRUTH of GOD. You do nothing but muddy up the waters of Life with those false teachings thinker. All “Christendom” is infested with those false suppositions , they only serve to cloud the truth of GOD. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,05:44) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,01:11) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,00:26) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
thinkerHave you ever thought that without God, meaning the Father, the son, Jesus, could not save us?
And without Jesus, God could not save us.
We sin against God/Father, not against the son/Jesus; it was Jesus that died in our stead for our sins, but it is the Father that forgives us our sins for Christs sake; so, you see, we need both for us to be saved.Georg
Georg,Have you ever thought that if God did not become one of us He could not know first hand what it is like to be human?
Have you ever thought that it was not the Father who is the Savior personally? The Father is the Savior through the Son. The Son is the Savior personally.
The Father was not personally spit upon was He? The Father was not personally beaten with whips that cut His flesh was He? The Father did not personally stand before Pilate did He? The Father did not personally have nails driven through His flesh while hanging on splintered wood did He?
Have you ever thought who had it the easiest?
“By HIS (Christ's) stripes we are healed.”
thinker
thinkerI had to look at the name who wrote this twice, for a moment I thought it was Nick, he turns everything around too.
Georg
Your point being…?Do not the scriptures expressly declare numerous times that the Father did all “THROUGH” Christ?
You guys use “through” Christ when it helps you. But when it doesn't help you you accuse me of turning things around.
Not only did Christ bear my sins personally Himself. But he also bore the reproaches against His Father personally. Paul said that the reproaches against the Father fell on Jesus:
Romans 15:3: 3For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.
Psalm 69:9: 9For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.
It's clear Georg! Christ personally bore the reproaches against His Father. The Father did not bear His own reproaches Himself.
It would be like if you were a Christian and all the kids at school made fun of your kid because you are a Christian. Your kid is the one who personally bears the reproaches against you.
Christ personally bore OUR sins. He personally bore the reproaches against His Father: “The reproaches of those who reproach you fell on Me“
After all Jesus did all you do is bad mouth Him.
thinker
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2010,13:48) Thinker………Suppositions are only that, they are not scriptural fact. Just TRINITARIAN GARBAGE AND ONLY SERVE TO TWIST THE TRUTH of GOD. You do nothing but muddy up the waters of Life with those false teachings thinker. All “Christendom” is infested with those false suppositions , they only serve to cloud the truth of GOD. IMO peace and love……………….gene
GeneAnd all you seem to do is spu out accusations rather than address his points.
The accuser of the brethren is famous for that!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,14:16) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,05:44) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,01:11) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,00:26) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
thinkerHave you ever thought that without God, meaning the Father, the son, Jesus, could not save us?
And without Jesus, God could not save us.
We sin against God/Father, not against the son/Jesus; it was Jesus that died in our stead for our sins, but it is the Father that forgives us our sins for Christs sake; so, you see, we need both for us to be saved.Georg
Georg,Have you ever thought that if God did not become one of us He could not know first hand what it is like to be human?
Have you ever thought that it was not the Father who is the Savior personally? The Father is the Savior through the Son. The Son is the Savior personally.
The Father was not personally spit upon was He? The Father was not personally beaten with whips that cut His flesh was He? The Father did not personally stand before Pilate did He? The Father did not personally have nails driven through His flesh while hanging on splintered wood did He?
Have you ever thought who had it the easiest?
“By HIS (Christ's) stripes we are healed.”
thinker
thinkerI had to look at the name who wrote this twice, for a moment I thought it was Nick, he turns everything around too.
Georg
Your point being…?Do not the scriptures expressly declare numerous times that the Father did all “THROUGH” Christ?
You guys use “through” Christ when it helps you. But when it doesn't help you you accuse me of turning things around.
Not only did Christ bear my sins personally Himself. But he also bore the reproaches against His Father personally. Paul said that the reproaches against the Father fell on Jesus:
Romans 15:3: 3For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.
Psalm 69:9: 9For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.
It's clear Georg! Christ personally bore the reproaches against His Father. The Father did not bear His own reproaches Himself.
It would be like if you were a Christian and all the kids at school made fun of your kid because you are a Christian. Your kid is the one who personally bears the reproaches against you.
Christ personally bore OUR sins. He personally bore the reproaches against His Father: “The reproaches of those who reproach you fell on Me“
After all Jesus did all you do is bad mouth Him.
thinker
JackExcellent point. This is why Jesus alone could forgive sins against God!
Only God can forgive sins against himself.
So they are One!
Major Premise: Only God could forgive sins against God
Minor Premise: Jesus forgave sins against God
Conclusion: Jesus is God
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,06:16) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,05:44) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,01:11) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,00:26) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
thinkerHave you ever thought that without God, meaning the Father, the son, Jesus, could not save us?
And without Jesus, God could not save us.
We sin against God/Father, not against the son/Jesus; it was Jesus that died in our stead for our sins, but it is the Father that forgives us our sins for Christs sake; so, you see, we need both for us to be saved.Georg
Georg,Have you ever thought that if God did not become one of us He could not know first hand what it is like to be human?
Have you ever thought that it was not the Father who is the Savior personally? The Father is the Savior through the Son. The Son is the Savior personally.
The Father was not personally spit upon was He? The Father was not personally beaten with whips that cut His flesh was He? The Father did not personally stand before Pilate did He? The Father did not personally have nails driven through His flesh while hanging on splintered wood did He?
Have you ever thought who had it the easiest?
“By HIS (Christ's) stripes we are healed.”
thinker
thinkerI had to look at the name who wrote this twice, for a moment I thought it was Nick, he turns everything around too.
Georg
Your point being…?Do not the scriptures expressly declare numerous times that the Father did all “THROUGH” Christ?
You guys use “through” Christ when it helps you. But when it doesn't help you you accuse me of turning things around.
Not only did Christ bear my sins personally Himself. But he also bore the reproaches against His Father personally. Paul said that the reproaches against the Father fell on Jesus:
Romans 15:3: 3For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.
Psalm 69:9: 9For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.
It's clear Georg! Christ personally bore the reproaches against His Father. The Father did not bear His own reproaches Himself.
It would be like if you were a Christian and all the kids at school made fun of your kid because you are a Christian. Your kid is the one who personally bears the reproaches against you.
Christ personally bore OUR sins. He personally bore the reproaches against His Father: “The reproaches of those who reproach you fell on Me“
After all Jesus did all you do is bad mouth Him.
thinker
thinkerCan you make a cartoon were my head is spinning around, because it is now.
Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,07:07) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,06:16) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,05:44) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 27 2010,01:11) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 27 2010,00:26) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:00) David, This is my second reply. See my first reply above.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE JW's INCONSISTENT TREATMENT OF THE FOLLOWING:
Isaiah 44:6: Besides me there is no God.”
Isaiah 43:11: Besides Me there is no Savior.”
How is it that when Jehovah says that there is no God besides Him you guard His solidarity as God. But when He says that there is no Savior besides Him you do not guard His solidarity as Savior?
thinker
thinkerHave you ever thought that without God, meaning the Father, the son, Jesus, could not save us?
And without Jesus, God could not save us.
We sin against God/Father, not against the son/Jesus; it was Jesus that died in our stead for our sins, but it is the Father that forgives us our sins for Christs sake; so, you see, we need both for us to be saved.Georg
Georg,Have you ever thought that if God did not become one of us He could not know first hand what it is like to be human?
Have you ever thought that it was not the Father who is the Savior personally? The Father is the Savior through the Son. The Son is the Savior personally.
The Father was not personally spit upon was He? The Father was not personally beaten with whips that cut His flesh was He? The Father did not personally stand before Pilate did He? The Father did not personally have nails driven through His flesh while hanging on splintered wood did He?
Have you ever thought who had it the easiest?
“By HIS (Christ's) stripes we are healed.”
thinker
thinkerI had to look at the name who wrote this twice, for a moment I thought it was Nick, he turns everything around too.
Georg
Your point being…?Do not the scriptures expressly declare numerous times that the Father did all “THROUGH” Christ?
You guys use “through” Christ when it helps you. But when it doesn't help you you accuse me of turning things around.
Not only did Christ bear my sins personally Himself. But he also bore the reproaches against His Father personally. Paul said that the reproaches against the Father fell on Jesus:
Romans 15:3: 3For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.
Psalm 69:9: 9For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.
It's clear Georg! Christ personally bore the reproaches against His Father. The Father did not bear His own reproaches Himself.
It would be like if you were a Christian and all the kids at school made fun of your kid because you are a Christian. Your kid is the one who personally bears the reproaches against you.
Christ personally bore OUR sins. He personally bore the reproaches against His Father: “The reproaches of those who reproach you fell on Me“
After all Jesus did all you do is bad mouth Him.
thinker
thinkerCan you make a cartoon were my head is spinning around, because it is now.
Georg
Georg,Why don't you love Him? It clearly says that Christ personally bore the reproaches against His Father. The Father did not personally come into the world of men to be mocked by them. He sent His Son to suffer all of that.
9For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me. Psalm 69:9
Paul applied this Psalm to Jesus Christ:
3For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me. Rom. 15:3
Christ alone personally suffered!
So don't blame your dizziness on me. Blame it on the darkness of your own apostasy.
thinker
Hi TT,
All who bore the Holy Spirit of God were hated and killed by those serving the god of the age.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2010,08:26) Hi TT,
All who bore the Holy Spirit of God were hated and killed by those serving the god of the age.
And their sufferings accomplished redemption and the forgiveness of sins how? They bore the reproaches against the Father how?thinker
Hi TT,
I was not saying any other anointed man was a saviour but neither was his suffering and death unique among God's servants, but the rule.
The perfect Lamb was chosen from the flock of God and specially appointed for our redemption.Men still refuse his lordship appointing Jesus God instead and refuse his teachings preferring catholic dogmas like trinity.
There is no salvation in any other name under heaven than that of Jesus so the name of a trinity cannot save you.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2010,18:34) Hi TT,
I was not saying any other anointed man was a saviour but neither was his suffering and death unique among God's servants, but the rule.
The perfect Lamb was chosen from the flock of God and specially appointed for our redemption.Men still refuse his lordship appointing Jesus God instead and refuse his teachings preferring catholic dogmas like trinity.
There is no salvation in any other name under heaven than that of Jesus so the name of a trinity cannot save you.
NHYou act as if the term Lordship implys less honour than the term God!
Scriptures say to honour Jesus with the same Honour that you honour the Father (God). John 5:23
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2010,10:34) Hi TT,
I was not saying any other anointed man was a saviour but neither was his suffering and death unique among God's servants, but the rule.
The perfect Lamb was chosen from the flock of God and specially appointed for our redemption.Men still refuse his lordship appointing Jesus God instead and refuse his teachings preferring catholic dogmas like trinity.
There is no salvation in any other name under heaven than that of Jesus so the name of a trinity cannot save you.
Nick,Christ's suffering and death put away sin. Only God can put away sin. Come on!
thinker
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