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Pierre,
That verse does not say that He is the first-created over all creation.This is my understanding of it…He is the firstborn of God and is over all creation, thus, the 'firstborn over all creation.'
See the difference?Good night Pierre!
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,00:41) Pierre,
That verse does not say that He is the first-created over all creation.This is my understanding of it…He is the firstborn of God and is over all creation, thus, the 'firstborn over all creation.'
See the difference?Good night Pierre!
Kathi
Kathiabout this ones;
Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankindJn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
PierreQuote (Lightenup @ June 14 2011,07:58) Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son? If He can save us only because of the Son, then the Father is mightier and more capable BECAUSE of His connection with the Son then apart from the Son.
Can the Father dwell within believers apart from His Holy Spirit?
If not, then the Holy Spirit causes the Father to be more capable than apart from His Holy Spirit.The presence of the Son and the Spirit bring more capabilities to the Father to be mightier than without their presence…and thus Almighty.
Can one really worship the Father as 'Almighty' as a being who is independent of His Son and Spirit, and still be worshipping the Father in truth?
Many here seem to believe that the Father wasn't always as capable to do the 'God' size tasks because they think the Son didn't always exist.
With the Son, God created…with the Son, God can offer eternal salvation.
When God says that He was alone during creation does God consider the Son an integral part of His being the Creator? So integral that they seem as one unity who act as one God to us although they are actually two distinct persons.
Just think about it.
Greetings Kathi … It is not that the Father could or couldn't save us without the son…The issue is that there is no salvation without the son and that is what constitutes the plan…. There is nothing the Father can not do….Our salvation is his plan and Jesus is the means by which we can fullfill it….Let us not forget there is a PLAN for our salvation that will run its course no matter what, whether we choose to participate or not….Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2011,23:58) And this is where we disagree. I believe the Father and the Son are interdependent with each other and always had each other. I do not believe that the Father was independent of the Son. Kathi
Hi Kathi,I guess that sums it up then. I believe that we have an All-Powerful God who begot a Son and gave that Son a vast amount of power and authority.
You believe that we have a God who's not even capable of doing certain things, (perhaps anything at all), without the “help” of the Son He begot.
Kathi, I have always enjoyed our discussions here. I considered you a fairly intelligent, even sometimes brilliant person who interpreted certain scriptures differently than I did. But lately I can hardly read a post of yours without rolling my eyes. You have moved yourself so far away from any scriptural support that it has stopped being funny, and I now find myself ashamed for you.
You WANT Jesus to have existed eternally within the God who begot him – so you just up and claim it as if it is fact.
You WANT God to be dependent on one of His creations, so you just up and claim that as a fact also.
You WANT there to be TWO Jehovahs, when scripture clearly states that Jehovah our God is ONE.
You WANT our God to be a “THEM” when our God is identified by a singular pronoun about 9000 times in scripture.
You WANT Jesus to be a part of “God Almighty”, when Jesus has a God of his own, and it's the same exact God that WE have.
You have fallen so far off the deep end lately that I don't even know WHAT to say to you anymore, or WHY I should even say it. You don't even seem to care anymore that what you claim has no scriptural support. It seems you are just making up your own God and scriptures as you go along. And when a person gets to the point that they don't even care anymore whether or not the scriptures agree with them, any scripture I could possibly show them seems to be moot, for they don't care anyway. But I love you and will try once again:
God Almighty, the ONLY true God, begot a Son unto Himself. Through that Son, who was the firstborn of all creation, God created all other things. The time came when our (singular) Creator decided to save the mankind He Himself created by sending His very own Son as a sacrificial Lamb – to atone for our many wicked sins and thereby giving us the possibility to once again be considered righteous in His eyes and worthy of everlasting life. This Holy Servant of the only true God came as a man and willingly offered up his own life for many reasons, four of which were: 1)He ALWAYS does what pleases his Master, 2)This command he received from his God, 3)His own love for the species of man who was created through him, and 4)It was the will of his God that he do this.
After fulfilling the will of HIS GOD, (for only ONE will is said to be done in all of heaven and earth), his God, (the ONLY One with any power of His own), exalted him to an even higher position than the one he left, and GAVE him power and authority. His God placed him in an esteemed position at His right hand, and granted him to rule for a while, after which time he will hand the Kingdom back over to the One it rightfully belongs to, so that our God and his God can be all in all.
This is the story according to the scriptures, Kathi. One was begotten BY another. One is greater THAN the other. Only ONE is God Almighty, God Most High, and the God of all other gods. That ONE God has a Son. Get it? Jesus is the SON of God, not a MEMBER of God. There is no scriptural reason to claim that Jesus is from eternity, or had some kind of “existence” within his God before his God begot him. There is no scriptural reason to assume that God Almighty is somehow more powerful or capable because of one of His creations. There is no scriptural reason to assume God NEEDED anyone else, or couldn't do certain things UNLESS this other person helped Him.
These are all things derived from people's imaginations. Not one of them is scripturally supported, while all of them are refuted by the scriptures.
Kathi, please pull your head out of……those other writings, and put it back into the Bible.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ June 15 2011,00:38) Kathi Quote And this is where we disagree. I believe the Father and the Son are interdependent with each other and always had each other. I do not believe that the Father was independent of the Son. Kathi
this comment is changing 99% of the bible ,so let me know when you are finish the written book
Pierre
Wow Pierre,I wish I would have read your response before posting my own! You said better in one sentence what it took me a huge post to say!
Quote (theodorej @ June 15 2011,12:38) It is not that the Father could or couldn't save us without the son… There is nothing the Father can not do…. Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2011,18:18) Quote (terraricca @ June 15 2011,00:38) Kathi Quote And this is where we disagree. I believe the Father and the Son are interdependent with each other and always had each other. I do not believe that the Father was independent of the Son. Kathi
this comment is changing 99% of the bible ,so let me know when you are finish the written book
Pierre
Wow Pierre,I wish I would have read your response before posting my own! You said better in one sentence what it took me a huge post to say!
MikeMike,
I could say many things to you right now, but I am tired and I have to get up in a few hours and start a road trip. Just one thing for now…you said:
Quote You WANT God to be dependent on one of His creations, so you just up and claim that as a fact also. I don't believe that the Son is a creation so that statement alone shows that you will make things up just to insult. You should know that I do not believe that the Son is a creation. So why would you state, AS FACT, that statement that you made in the quotes about what I WANT? You haven't got a clue what I want, obviously.
And that is just one of your inaccurate claims that you state as FACT that I WANT. You have no understanding of what I WANT. You say that I say things as 'fact' when you have listed several things about what you think I want and you state them as FACTS. Are you a comedian?
Good night!
Quote (theodorej @ June 15 2011,13:38) Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2011,07:58) Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son? If He can save us only because of the Son, then the Father is mightier and more capable BECAUSE of His connection with the Son then apart from the Son.
Can the Father dwell within believers apart from His Holy Spirit?
If not, then the Holy Spirit causes the Father to be more capable than apart from His Holy Spirit.The presence of the Son and the Spirit bring more capabilities to the Father to be mightier than without their presence…and thus Almighty.
Can one really worship the Father as 'Almighty' as a being who is independent of His Son and Spirit, and still be worshipping the Father in truth?
Many here seem to believe that the Father wasn't always as capable to do the 'God' size tasks because they think the Son didn't always exist.
With the Son, God created…with the Son, God can offer eternal salvation.
When God says that He was alone during creation does God consider the Son an integral part of His being the Creator? So integral that they seem as one unity who act as one God to us although they are actually two distinct persons.
Just think about it.
Greetings Kathi … It is not that the Father could or couldn't save us without the son…The issue is that there is no salvation without the son and that is what constitutes the plan…. There is nothing the Father can not do….Our salvation is his plan and Jesus is the means by which we can fullfill it….Let us not forget there is a PLAN for our salvation that will run its course no matter what, whether we choose to participate or not….
Hi Ted,
you said:Quote There is nothing the Father can not do….Our salvation is his plan and Jesus is the means by which we can fullfill it Yes, it took both, the Father and the Son. There is nothing the Father can not do when He has the Son and their Spirit.
Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ June 15 2011,01:33) Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,23:40) Pierre,
you said:Quote SO ONE GOD ,ONE PERSON,CHRIST THE SON ONE PERSON SEPARATE AND CREATED WAY AFTER ??TIME??BUT IS HIS FIRST CREATION. We disagree here and so we come to different conclusions. I think that the Son always existed, first within the Father and then begotten from within before creation.
KathiCol 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
what is it you do not understand ? ,is Paul lying ?
Pierre
Pierre,
You ought to read the book.Where does this verse say 'first created?' Do you think Paul should have said first created and was lying when he said 'firstborn?'
You really have some trouble reading and comprehending things.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,18:56) Quote (theodorej @ June 15 2011,13:38) Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2011,07:58) Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son? If He can save us only because of the Son, then the Father is mightier and more capable BECAUSE of His connection with the Son then apart from the Son.
Can the Father dwell within believers apart from His Holy Spirit?
If not, then the Holy Spirit causes the Father to be more capable than apart from His Holy Spirit.The presence of the Son and the Spirit bring more capabilities to the Father to be mightier than without their presence…and thus Almighty.
Can one really worship the Father as 'Almighty' as a being who is independent of His Son and Spirit, and still be worshipping the Father in truth?
Many here seem to believe that the Father wasn't always as capable to do the 'God' size tasks because they think the Son didn't always exist.
With the Son, God created…with the Son, God can offer eternal salvation.
When God says that He was alone during creation does God consider the Son an integral part of His being the Creator? So integral that they seem as one unity who act as one God to us although they are actually two distinct persons.
Just think about it.
Greetings Kathi … It is not that the Father could or couldn't save us without the son…The issue is that there is no salvation without the son and that is what constitutes the plan…. There is nothing the Father can not do….Our salvation is his plan and Jesus is the means by which we can fullfill it….Let us not forget there is a PLAN for our salvation that will run its course no matter what, whether we choose to participate or not….
Hi Ted,
you said:Quote There is nothing the Father can not do….Our salvation is his plan and Jesus is the means by which we can fullfill it Yes, it took both, the Father and the Son. There is nothing the Father can not do when He has the Son and their Spirit.
Kathi
Kathi …. That is a reasonable assertion and it speaks to the oneness that is the God head….consisting of the Eternals word by which he created all things and his spirit which is the essense of his power…Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2011,01:59) Quote (terraricca @ June 15 2011,01:33) Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,23:40) Pierre,
you said:Quote SO ONE GOD ,ONE PERSON,CHRIST THE SON ONE PERSON SEPARATE AND CREATED WAY AFTER ??TIME??BUT IS HIS FIRST CREATION. We disagree here and so we come to different conclusions. I think that the Son always existed, first within the Father and then begotten from within before creation.
KathiCol 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
what is it you do not understand ? ,is Paul lying ?
Pierre
Pierre,
You ought to read the book.Where does this verse say 'first created?' Do you think Paul should have said first created and was lying when he said 'firstborn?'
You really have some trouble reading and comprehending things.
Kathithe firstborn means what ?
since I am ,
Quote You really have some trouble reading and comprehending things. as you say;;;;;
and then we can talk about ” over all of creation”
I also do not want to make us mind readers,
I believe Paul uses the right combination of words ,it is the mind of those who read it that are in trouble ,
faith in God can only be acquired by faith ,understand?
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,01:51) I don't believe that the Son is a creation so that statement alone shows that you will make things up just to insult
Kathi,When you claim that God is dependent upon His Son, then whether you like it or not, you ARE claiming that God is dependent upon one of His creations.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,01:59) Pierre,
You ought to read the book.Where does this verse say 'first created?'
The word “creation” is genitive in this verse, which means it says “firstborn OF creation”, not “OVER” creation.And just as the one who was “the firstborn OF the human species” would be included IN the group of “the human species”, the firstborn OF creation would likewise be included IN the group of “created things”.
Colossians 1:15 is also faithfully translated as “the firstborn of every creature“.
Kathi, wrap your head around that translation, which is every bit as accurate as the “all creation” translation. See if that helps you out.
Also, many CREATURES were born. I was, and so were you. You try to use the word “born” as some kind of antonym of “created”, but it's not. So the fact that Jesus was born does not prohibit him from being created any more than the fact that you were born prohibits you from being a part of the creation by God.
peace,
mikeQuote (theodorej @ June 16 2011,06:29) Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,18:56) Quote (theodorej @ June 15 2011,13:38) Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2011,07:58) Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son?
Greetings Kathi … It is not that the Father could or couldn't save us without the son…There is nothing the Father can not do….
Hi Ted,
you said:Quote There is nothing the Father can not do….Our salvation is his plan and Jesus is the means by which we can fullfill it Yes, it took both, the Father and the Son. There is nothing the Father can not do when He has the Son and their Spirit.
Kathi
Kathi …. That is a reasonable assertion
Hmmm……………on which side of the fence will you land, Theo? Your first statement was accurate and scriptural. Your second statement seems to contradict your first statement by agreeing with Kathi that what the Father is capable of is limited by whether or not the Son is “helping” Him.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2011,15:17) Quote (theodorej @ June 16 2011,06:29) Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,18:56) Quote (theodorej @ June 15 2011,13:38) Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2011,07:58) Can anyone show me scripture that the Father could eternally save us apart from the Son?
Greetings Kathi … It is not that the Father could or couldn't save us without the son…There is nothing the Father can not do….
Hi Ted,
you said:Quote There is nothing the Father can not do….Our salvation is his plan and Jesus is the means by which we can fullfill it Yes, it took both, the Father and the Son. There is nothing the Father can not do when He has the Son and their Spirit.
Kathi
Kathi …. That is a reasonable assertion
Hmmm……………on which side of the fence will you land, Theo? Your first statement was accurate and scriptural. Your second statement seems to contradict your first statement by agreeing with Kathi that what the Father is capable of is limited by whether or not the Son is “helping” Him.
Greetings Mike …. My statement is consistant it is your understanding that askewed…Kathi is attempting to show how dependent each element of the God head is with repect to each other…as I read it( IMO)….What Iam saying Is that “God Is” and what Is Is that he is ONE consisting of the means to create(The Word) and the essense of his power to create( His Spirit)…. What do you think?Hi Theo,
I think what the scriptures teach. Therefore I think that for us, there is but ONE God, the Father, not “one Godhead, the Father, Son and Spirit”. I think that our ONE God begot a Son named Jesus as the firstborn of every creature, who is NOT the God he is the Son of. I think the Holy Spirit is OF God, and not God Himself.
God has no equal, and ALL THINGS are possible for God. So for Kathi to try to limit what God is capable of with, versus without, the Son He created borders on blasphemy, IMO.
God has put many things in the hands of His Son and has given His Son great power and authority. But it was God alone who was powerful enough to GIVE power TO His Son, and by doing so He did NOT make Himself less powerful, nor did He become dependent upon His Son for one single thing. The same can be said of the situation both before and after God exalted His Son to His right hand.
peace,
mike
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