Monotheism = Belief in Only One God

[kerwin]

WJ,

This is what scripture states and the conclusion I draw from it.

Quote

John 10 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

So who was it that the books of law were given to?  Was it not the children of Israel?

Quote

Psalms 82 6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Since as Jesus clearly stated “scripture cannot be broken” it follows that God did indeed call the Hebrews gods.  You thus find in the books of law that God did call the Hebrews the children of God, which is to say gods.

Quote

Deuteronomy 14 1Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

In conclusion there are many gods since it is clear that those who received the written law are called gods by Jehovah the one true God.  As the ones that received written law are called gods then how much more fitting to call those that receive the very Spirit of God, gods?

Satan is a fallen god because he sinned as are those who follow his footsteps and also fall from God’s grace.  Those who remain gods are those who in the past age of the Law of Moses lived by the law through faith but in the present age of the new covenant live according to the Spirit through the same faith.  I speak of humans and not Messengers.

According to the Greek Lexicon at searchgodsword.org that is definition 4 for the common Greek word “theos” in Strong’s.

Quote

4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

When God states there are no other gods he is using definition 1.

Quote

1.  a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

It is vain argument of words as it involves an discussion in which opposing parties are using different definitions for the same word.  To be productive the two parties must get on the same page as far as what the words they speak mean.

Note 1: All Scriptures from King James Version.

Note 2: edited to add notes.

[kerwin]

Quote (Istari @ May 07 2011,15:40)

This is all word play games. At one point WJ says 'Only one God' – then he later says 'Only one TRUE God'. It is clear there is a difference – and his arguments PLAY on that difference. Scriptures clearly mentions other Gods… Because 'God' is a TITLE. And a TITLE can be given to many in context. Kerwin, the Son of a God – is NOT a GOD… Kerwin, a God – is not CREATED, Procreated nor made… A 'God' becomes… But there is one that ALWAYS WAS – Always IS – and Always WILL BE : and his name is YHVH. Jesus is called 'Mighty God'. But notice that Scriptures says 'He will be CALLED Mighty God'. Can anyone understand this… Anyone can be CALLED anything if they perform a causation. Can anyone understand this… If Jesus was TO BE CALLED 'Mighty God' then what IS HE before he IS that MIGHTY God. Can I ask why folk here cannot understand that the word or term 'God' is but a title. Kerwin, the Son of a King… Is a PRINCE. 'God' and 'King' are similar TITLES – yet no one misunderstands that there can be many kings – and that there is ONE and One Only who is King of all who are called Kings. So why is 'God' different? Someone has an agenda?

I am not in complete disagreement with you except perhaps that I believe Jesus is called God because in him dwells the fullness of God through the Spirit of Christ.

[Istari]

WJ,
I see you pick and choose what you wish to respond to – and in doing so wait until you see an 'apparent' weak point and then decide to respond.

It is clear that you refuse to acknowledge any part of my post which states that 'God' is a title.
If 'God' is a title then it can be used of any, and as many, as qualify for that title.

Did not the God Almighty call Moses 'a God'?
Did God Almighty himself warn the Hebrews not to go after 'Other Gods'?

It is fine that says 'there is no other God but me' because he also says it in context.
'Stop chasing after other Gods who are lifeless – I am your One True God'
Further qualifying it by 'There is no other God beside(s) me'.
This because there were many pagan tribes who believed in multiple Gods.

Now, I understand that you say 'One True God' and the others were 'So-Called Gods' and while this is true you must understand that that is is saying 'There are no other 'Mighty Gods like me'' – as opposed to 'Ones of Might', 'Mighty Ones', 'Heroes'.

WJ, you are confusing two different terms and uses using each to compound your point out of context as you NEED TO – not as the context demands.

'One True God' is pertaining to 'God above Gods – Almighty God, to distinguish YHVH from all others who are called God or Mighty Ones'. Why the use of 'True' if there are no others who are less than TRUE?
'Only one God' is pertaining to 'A single all mighty being that cannot be compared to any other being'
A King in his Kingdom – cannot be compared to any other.
How would it read to say that 'King Charles is the One True King' as opposed to 'King Charles is the one and Only King' (Obviously with reference to the human period of time of his reigning)

It seems clear to me that one pertains to complete singular Kingship – and the other pertains to qualifying Charles as the RIGHTFUL King over others who claimed kingship within the same reigning period.

Did not one of David's Sons claim kingship when the RIGHTFUL king was Solomon?
So, Solomon was the 'One true King' after David.
And when his position was secured then be was the 'Only One King'

And since 'God' is a Title like 'King' how do you say that the Son of God is God but not the Son of A King is a King?

A Son of a King – is a Prince!
The Son of a King becomes a King when he takes sole ownership of the fathers Kingdom (Jesus never takes SOLE OWNERSHIP of YHVH's kingdom – even the very term used displays this: He sits as King over HIS FATHER'S KINGDOM….

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Istari @ May 07 2011,16:41)

'One True God' is pertaining to 'God above Gods – Almighty God, to distinguish YHVH from all others who are called God or Mighty Ones'. Why the use of 'True' if there are no others who are less than TRUE?

Well then why didn't they say “the True God above” or “the Mighty God above”

Why the words “ONLY ONE GOD” if there are others?

And if you add the word true then that means all other so-called gods are false and not gods at all but only to men, Idolators and Polytheist.

You guys believe in…

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2011,16:05)

Since as Jesus clearly stated “scripture cannot be broken” it follows that God did indeed call the Hebrews gods.

Kerwin

Read it again. The Psalm does not say God called the Hebrew God. It is the words of the Psalmist who calls them gods and says they will die like men.

So how is it that fallen wicked judges are “gods”?

The scripture Jesus quoted was to rebuke their Hypocrosy for saying he was the Son of God, which BTW the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming equality with God because he said God was his personal Father.

No where do we find the Hebrew calling God their personal Father. They say corporately that he is the Father to “Israel” but for one to call YHWH his own Father would have been blasphemous and in fact is the reason they crucified him.

The scripture was also found in the Talmud which was the verbal law of the Hebrews that defined the Torah and Tanakh.

Jesus was refering to their written law where they claimed they were gods. So Jesus statement was to rebuke them because they believed in men as gods yet not in the Son of God.

WJ

[terraricca]

Wj

Quote

Jesus was referring to their written law where they claimed they were gods. So Jesus statement was to rebuke them because they believed in men as gods yet not in the Son of God.

why was Moses called god to his brother? because he was the one talking in Gods name without intermediary,

If you read the word of God wen he made Israel a nation to be his people ,his nation that would represent him on earth,and so show the world the good to be with God,

but there too they have fail and  latter he as to reject them as people and as nation were his name was on.also destroy all what stand and that would declare his name.

and give his favors to people who call on him.
and so it was with Jesus who was saying the words of his father and God,so he would be a god to all of us.

Pierre

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2011,04:03)

Quote (shimmer @ May 06 2011,04:00) The Jewish Scriptures are clear on this point: God is the sole Savior of Israel. The LORD says, “I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior” (Is. 43:3); “apart from Me there is no savior” (Is. 43:11; cf. 45:15, 21; 49:26; 60:16; 63:8). Nevertheless, Moses, as God’s agent, is called a savior (Acts 7:35; cp. 27 and Ex. 2:14; 18:13). The judges, as God’s appointed agents, are also called saviors (Jud. 3:9, 15; Neh. 9:27; Ex. 2:14; 18:13, Acts 7:27, 35). The prophets speak of other human agents, yet future, who will save Israel (Is. 19:20, Obad. 21). Hi Shimmer, The information you posted was brilliant!  I have personally made almost all of these arguments against either Kathi, Jack or Keith, but David Burge has done much more research than I, and has many more supporting scriptures than I have put together on my own.  So thanks for this post – I will save it on my computer and reference it often.   I have tried in vain to get Keith to understand the “savior” point I quoted above, and although this particular point is off topic for this thread, I hope Keith reads the info. peace, mike

Mike, I find this subject interesting because its true, scripture says there is only one true God, and Isreal, and Jesus as a Jew were monotheist. And said not one dot of the law has changed. It bothered me sometimes, I thought am I wrong to just pray to the Father? (even though Jesus said to do this when the Disciples asked him how to pray). So with this topic, I searched the net and found out about this Hebrew thought on “Divine Principle and Agent” and then found that writing of 'David Burge's, which was good.

And to all,
This topic made me think of Islam. What is the fine line between this type of Christian belief and Islam? Well, the thing is, the deception. We believe the Bible and all it says about the Son. Muslims believe the Bible is corrupt and God has no Son and follow the Quran so they are denying the Father and Son…. 1st John 2:22… “He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.”
(not their fault if its all they know…. unless they were a believer in Christ, who knew the Bible and went on to the Quran and chose to deny the Lord)….2nd Peter 2:1…  “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them.”

ISTARI good post on page three!

[shimmer]

(Istari I was meaning you reply to me, I get what you mean completly)

[Istari]

Shimmer,
Thank you – you are blessed to have godly discernment.

WJ,
I find it incredible that you cannot see that 'God' is a title – just like 'King'.

As much as one may attribute that title to One grand almighty being, one must also bend to the fact, as a title, it can be attributed to as many as qualify to that title status.

That title status is of one who is above all others: the ruler, the king, the supreme – above all others in the same class, race/nation, family, grouping…

Who is the 'God' of the class of Spirit based beings? The One Spirit whose name is YHVH.
Who is the 'God' of the race/nation? Is it not the Leader/King?
Who is the 'God' of a human family? Is it not the Father?
Who is the 'God' of sports race? Is it not the winner?

Each of these 'Gods' are the Supreme and ultimate force in their particular area of control, their own kingdom:
The Sports winner – the 'mighty one' receives the most Praise, Honor and Glory as well as obeisance.
The Human family – (Ideally) the Father has the last word on family decisions.
The King – the lawgiver, the final decision maker on the policy and governance.
YHVH – the God, the 'Mighty one' above all other who are called Gods or mighty ones.

Consider the Israelites: who was their 'King' at Solomon's coronation? Was there not another 'so-called' King?
(Scriptures is Fractal) was there not one who would make himself King and sit in the throne of he who is King (Where has that been said before?)
Here we are using 'King' instead of 'God' contextually because this is a human level example specific to a race or nation.
So, being an Israelite talking to another – does not one say 'The King has said ….'?
If it were such that there were no other nations, no other peoples, the word or term 'King' would be forever attributed to that specific King such that 'King' would become a singular reference to that one person.
Now, add a few internal and external nations and peoples. Each will have it's own 'King'.
It will now be required to distinguish in an exchange which 'King' is being referred to – so the original King acquires a NAME… (Saul/David/Solomon…) as 'the God of the israelites' also acquired a name: YHVH (Please note the use of the term 'The God' and then the qualifier 'of the Israelites')

WJ, I quite understand that at the end of the day there is ONLY ONE GOD who is the TRUE GOD.
But can you see if there were no others who were called 'God' then there would be no need at all to say 'True'…
And as for 'Only One God' that too I agree is true but you fail to see the simplicity (Too much analysis brings on paralysis) of 'There is Only One God – not multiple Gods'.
WJ, do you not know that all the nations around the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews worshipped MULTIPLE GODS? YHVH directed his 'children' to worship him as 'One God' and 'Only One God'.

And can you really not see the difference between 'One TRUE God' and 'Only ONE God'?

Try writing sentences (to yourself) using each term and see the difference in usage:
1) There are others called 'God' but ONLY ONE IS THE TRUE GOD.
2) There are those who worship multiple Gods but you must worship ONLY ONE GOD.

And, combined:
Although there are others called 'God' by context and some are believed on as polytheistic, you must worship the ONLY ONE [who is a] TRUE GOD WHO IS ONE [singular] GOD.

Why 'God above all [so-called] gods'?
note: 'So-called' is pertaining explicitly to Deitification of idols – not to 'Mighty ones' of human origin.
Examples would be BAAL and DAGON, the Greek, Roman and Asian Gods – as opposed to the 'Ye are Gods' who were the MIGHTY ONES in the dispensing of the word of YHVH.

It is sad – and wise of God – that mankind is confused by such a simple usage of a word that has become a bye-Name for the One and singular True God – YHVH.

Exercise: Replace the word 'God' everywhere in the Scriptures with 'YHVH' contextually.
You will be left with the word 'God' that does not translate to 'YHVH' but most definitely translate to 'Mighty One', 'Ultimate' and 'Supreme'.

E.g.
'God, your God, …'
Translate:
'YHVH, your God, …'

'He will be called Mighty God'
'He will be called Mighty One'

In short: Any usage of the word or term 'God' that cannot be translated to 'YHVH' does not pertain to 'The One and Only True God'.

[Baker]

Shimmer!  I read your post and want to respond to what you  said about the Law.  The only thing that Jesus fulfilled was the Sacrificial Law.  He is the perfect Scarifies, no other Animal Scarifies needed..  
The Law and the prophets are also in the New Covenant under Jesus blood.   Some think that the Sabbath is to be kept.  It was never a commandment to us.  It was a Covenant and sign between God and the Children of Israel…
Exd 31:16   Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.  

Exd 31:17   It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.  

Paul tells us that we can keep any day to the LORD.  or every day to the LORD…

Rom 14:5   One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.  
Rom 14:6   He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.  

Peace Irene

[Istari]

WJ,

There is not one here that claim 'Moses', 'Manoah' or 'Man' is 'God' meaning they are individual 'God the Almighty'. This is your own reckoning.

It is clearly stated that 'God' is a Title just like 'King' but we also expressly know that of all those called 'Almighty God' (What was it that Manoah did to be called 'A God'? I can't remember!)

WJ, it is well within your ability to understand what we are saying (or at least what I am saying) without getting TITLE and PERSON confused.

God the title – anyone who aspires to the heights of Mightiness.
God the person – THE ONE and ONLY ONE who is Truly and Completely MIGHTY – All Mighty!

'God the person' – YHVH – is also 'God by title'.
But there is none other who is 'God the title' who is also 'God the person'!

Jesus is given a title that pertains to a titled Godship in the same way as others especially in light of his prophesied attainment to the throne of David in Mightiness – but neither David nor Jesus are ever actually called 'God Almighty' but only 'Son of God'.

The Son of a God – is not himself – a God!
The Son of a King – is not himself – a King!

WJ,
God Almighty is a Spirit – his BEING is as SPIRIT.
My Father is a Man – his Being is as Man.
The Son of the Being that is Spirit – is a Being of Spirit.
The Son of the Being that is Man – is a Being of Man.

Jesus is not the Being of his Father – but a Being of Spirit-kind.
I am not the being of my father – but a Being of Man-Kind.

Jesus is not his Father.
I am not my Father.

God Almighty has many SONS but only One is BEGOTTEN as a Holy and True Son.
There is only one who is Truly Almighty – YHVH God the Most High.

Why 'the MOST HIGH' if there are no others who are 'less than MOST HIGH'?
One cannot compare with a single entity.
It is clear, therefore, that the translation is :'The ultimate power and force above all powers and forces – the Mightiest' and thus pertains to a TITLE as it is also clear that there are others who are Powerful, that are a force to be reckoned with, that are Mighty – yet are not THE MOST POWERFUL – THE MOST HIGH… and how can there be TWO – or Three – that are EQUAL MOST HIGH.

WJ, show me one Scripture that claims any other than God Almighty (YHVH – the Father) is MOST HIGH or ALMIGHTY!

[Istari]

Who was it that believes that there are other True Gods but only one is true?

How can the statement make sense: There are Many true Gods but only one true God is a true God!!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ May 08 2011,02:49)

Mike, I find this subject interesting because its true, scripture says there is only one true God, and Isreal, and Jesus as a Jew were monotheist.

Hi Kar,

The problem stems from the meanings of “monotheist” and “polytheist”.  It is certain scholars, not the scriptures themselves, that claim the Hebrews were a “strictly monotheist” culture.  Now if you understand “monotheist” to mean the belief that only one god exists literally, then the Hebrews were anything but a monotheist culture.  They worshipped YHWH at the same time they set up Asteroth Poles on the high hills and set up alters to other gods.  (Read 1 Sam 19:13 to see that even King David had household idols in his residence.)

Even the righteous ones, like Moses (who wrote the story of the creation in Genesis, and therefore knew that only ONE God created all things) said things like this:
Deuteronomy 4:7
What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him?

See?  Even Moses, who knew there was only one God OF gods, accepted the existence of the other gods that YHWH was the God OF.

Kar, you once posted some info from Wikipedia about monotheism and henotheism and such.  Could you post it again here?  It would really help for this discussion I think. It would shed some much needed light on the meaning of “one God”.

peace,
mike

[Istari]

Mike,
WJ knows full well that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

Ask him the Name of this ONE TRUE GOD.

[Istari]

Ask him the Name of the only Begotten Son of the One True God.

Ask him who the Father of Angel Gabriel is? Or Archangel Michael? Or Satan?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2011,10:03)

Quote (shimmer @ May 06 2011,04:00) The Jewish Scriptures are clear on this point: God is the sole Savior of Israel. The LORD says, “I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior” (Is. 43:3); “apart from Me there is no savior” (Is. 43:11; cf. 45:15, 21; 49:26; 60:16; 63:8). Nevertheless, Moses, as God’s agent, is called a savior (Acts 7:35; cp. 27 and Ex. 2:14; 18:13). The judges, as God’s appointed agents, are also called saviors (Jud. 3:9, 15; Neh. 9:27; Ex. 2:14; 18:13, Acts 7:27, 35). The prophets speak of other human agents, yet future, who will save Israel (Is. 19:20, Obad. 21). Hi Shimmer, I have tried in vain to get Keith to understand the “savior” point I quoted above, and although this particular point is off topic for this thread, I hope Keith reads the info. peace, mike

On second thought, maybe this “savior” business is just what the doctor ordered.  God said, “apart from Me there is no savior” (Is. 43:11; cf. 45:15, 21; 49:26; 60:16; 63:8).

Yet we know of other saviors in the scriptures, right?  (They are mentioned in the scriptures listed in the quote above.)   So God is apparently not saying that there is no other savior, period.  So if I said, “God is the only TRUE Savior”, it would be an accurate and emphatic statement, but it would not make Moses a “FALSE savior” would it?

This directly correlates to God saying “apart from Me there is no god”.  He is not saying that no other god exists, period.  He is saying that no other god could be a god or have any power at all if it was not allowed by Himself.  Satan has power simply because God has allowed him to have power.  Pontius Pilate had power, yet Jesus told him, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.”

So again, if I say that God is the only one who has TRUE power, it would be an accurate and emphatic statement, but would not mean the power Pilate had as Governor of Judea was “FALSE power”, for Jesus recognizes that Pilate does in fact have power.

This is what Keith trys to claim.  He thinks he can use the words “only TRUE god” to assert that Satan, as the god of this world is a “false god”.  He is not a “false god”, but the very powerful, very TRUE god of this world.  Keith thinks these words mean that Deborah, who God Himself appointed as a god over Israel, was a “false god”. But she was a TRUE god who was appointed to lead Israel by the God OF gods.  

And his main agenda for making this claim is to say if Jesus isn't a “false god”, then he must be the “only TRUE god”.  But it is Jesus himself who calls Jehovah the “only true god”, so he is not referring to himself, but to the One he was praying to at that time.  

Yet we know from scripture that Jesus IS a god; we know he isn't a “false god”; and we know he isn't the “only true God” that he prayed to.

So, does “only true god” mean that any other god is a “false god”, or is it an emphatic way of placing Jehovah above all of the other gods?  That is the real question of this thread.  Can you answer it Keith?  Anyone?

mike

[Istari]

Mike,
If something is Not White – does that mean that it can only be Black.

Yes, that is what WJ is saying because he knows that any other way means he has to admit that others are also called 'God'. Notice that he shifts the discussion away from any answer that approaches the truth of what was asked of him.

Just keep remembering that 'God' is a Title. This way explains all.

A Title describes a Class or Group.

'God' as Title describes and is Ascribed to, a being that is supreme in it's class – as I showed before.

Seeing that we acknowledge 'YHVH' as the One Supreme above all supreme beings in all eternity and over all species, the title is rightly His: God. Any simple reference to 'God' refers to the One God who is Supreme above all others.
All others MUST be referenced by name. And rightly so to distinguish that one from any other with a similar title.

In the beginning did the One God need a name? No – for there were no other Gods known – real or apparent. Do not get carried away with the word 'real' – it is meant to signify 'in the mind of the believer' as opposed to Apparent which is to Mankind as Heroic or Mighty.

Moses, was a Mighty leader to the Israelites, even as a God to them!
David, was a Mighty King to the Israelites, even as a God to them!
Satan, is a Mighty Spirit, even as a God to his believers!

Yet none of these are 'The One True God' yet they are called 'God' by title and deeds (Meaning 'Mighty One') and thus Jesus, too, is CALLED Mighty God for his deeds and accomplishment.

So, all these BECAME mighty ones by deed.
YHVH is and always was Mighty from, and to, Eternity!
YHVH is and always was God from, and to, eternity!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ May 08 2011,14:14)

Moses, was a Mighty leader to the Israelites, even as a God to them! David, was a Mighty King to the Israelites, even as a God to them! Satan, is a Mighty Spirit, even as a God to his believers!

So were these you mentioned, along with Jesus himself, “false gods” just because they are not the “only true god”? In Psalm 82:1, are the gods that God assembles with “false gods” because they are not the “only true god”?

What I'm getting at, is should we understand “only true god” to mean all other gods are “false gods”, or should we take it to be an emphatic way of saying that Jehovah is the God OF all the other gods, and therefore the “only true god”, because all the other gods would be nothing without Him allowing them to be?

The latter is the way I see it. Just like in 1 Cor 8:6, when Paul says, “yet for us there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ”. He is not saying that there were literally never any other lords in existence, period. He is making an emphatic statement designed to place the Lordship of Jesus Christ over and above any other lordship we might fall under in our lives.

Do you agree?

mike

[shimmer]

Mike and Istari, good conversation between you both, and I'm not just saying that to be nice.  Your posts were well written and I have learnt things from them.

Mike, the Wikipedia Quote you asked for:

“-Monotheism is related to henotheism (worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities) and monolatrism (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity. -“

[mikeboll64]

Thanks Kar.

I would say that, according to the actual scriptures, the Hebrews were more like henotheists or monolatrists. For they surely didn't believe in the literal existence of only one god, period. The phrase “God OF gods” is proof of this.

mike

[Author]

Posts