Monotheism = Belief in Only One God

Participant

Good post Mike.

May 6, 2011 at 8:17 am#245426

http://kingdomready.org/blog….iptures

Participant

Now all we need is for WJ to post a response to the questions in this thread.

Please be careful what you post – so that the TOPIC of the thread is the TOPIC of your posts.

I posted earlier concerning 'The Father of God' – can anyone add or refute this term?
I mean if:
– Jesus is the SON of The One True God
– The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of God
– 'The Father' is the Father of Jesus – the Son

Can it not be proved then that:
– Jesus is the SON of the Father
– the FATHER – must be God the one True God!

Diagrammatically:
The One True God – The Father (Whose NAME is YHVH)
!
/ \

/ \
The Son of God The Holy Spirit of God
(Whose NAME is Jesus) (The Spirit of Truth)
(The Priest of the One true God) (The Holy Spirit of God)
(Addtnly: Christ, Messiah, Lord) (Addtnly: Comforter)

Side thoughts:
Did Jesus come to reveal God?
Did Jesus himself not say, I have made You (God – the One True God – and Father) known to them'?
If a king sends a message to another – is the Messenger the King?

May 6, 2011 at 10:00 am#245428

shimmer

Participant

All, please read this its really good, I was searching regarding Jewish Monotheism and came across Jewish belief in 'Divine Agency'… and then came acoss this:

Divine Agency in the Scriptures
by David Burge

Quote:

“In Hebrew thought, the “first cause” is not always distinguished from “intermediate” or “secondary” causes. That is to say: The principal is not always clearly distinguished from the agent, the one commissioned to carry out an act on behalf of another. Sometimes the agent, standing for the principal, is treated as if he or she were the principal him or herself, though this is not literally so. Principal and agent remain two distinct persons but they act in complete harmony. The agent acts and speaks for his principal.

The Principle of Agency in Scripture

In the Bible there are examples of human principals using fellow humans for agents, of God as divine principal using angelic agents, and of God using human agents. This notion of principal and agent is the key to understanding the relationship between the one true God and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Human Principal and Agency in the Gospels

The concept of principal and agency can actually help us to reconcile what appear otherwise to be contradictions in the parallel accounts found in the synoptic Gospels. So in the account of Jesus healing the centurion’s servant, Matthew speaks of a conversation between the centurion himself and Jesus (Mt. 8:5-13). Luke tells us that the centurion did not in fact come personally. He sent some “Jewish elders” and then some “friends” to Jesus with his requests (Luke 7:1-10). The centurion here is the principal; the Jewish elders and the centurion’s friends are his appointed, commissioned agents. Remembering that in Hebrew thought, the principal and the agent are not always clearly distinguished, Matthew mentions only the principal (the centurion) without distinguishing the agent (the Jewish elders and friends). Luke mentions both principal and agents. To put it another way, in Matthew’s account, the elders (agents) stand for and are treated as the centurion (principal), even though this is not literally true.

Similarly, when Jesus was questioned concerning who might sit next to him in his Kingdom, Mark gives us the impression that James and John themselves personally asked whether they might sit next to Jesus in places of royal authority (Mk. 10:35-40). Matthew tells us that in fact it was the mother of Zebedee’s children who actually made the request to Jesus (Mt. 20:20-23). In this case, Matthew gives the agency (the mother), whereas Mark does not. Again, putting it the other way around, in Matthew’s account the mother (as agent) stands for and is treated as James and John (the principal), even though this is not literally true.

Divine Principal and Human Agency

The LORD told Moses that he would be “Elohim [God] to Aaron” (Ex. 4:16). He says, “I have made you Elohim to Pharaoh and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet” (Ex. 7:1). In Exodus 7:17-21 the LORD says: “By this you will know that I am the LORD: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water.” The LORD then says to Moses, “Tell Aaron, ‘Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt — over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs — and they will turn to blood.’” Moses and Aaron did as the LORD had commanded. Aaron raised his staff and struck the water of the Nile “and all the water was changed into blood.”

The LORD had said that He Himself would strike the waters with the staff in his own hand. Yet, it was Aaron’s hand that held the rod, and Aaron who struck the Nile. Clearly, Aaron is not God. Rather, Aaron stands as God’s agent, in the place of God. One might even say he is “God,” not literally, but in a manner of (Hebrew) speaking. One might even say in this case that God (as principal) was represented by Moses (the agent), who in turn was represented by Aaron!

Divine Principal and Angelic Agency

Genesis 18 begins by saying that “the LORD appeared to Abraham” (v. 1). We read that Abraham “looked up and saw three men” (v. 2). The implication is that one of the three is in a sense the LORD. Later it is the LORD who says, “I will surely return to you about this time next year” (vv. 10, 13). When the men get up to leave the LORD speaks yet again (v. 17). Finally, two of the angelic men turn away. As the NIV has it, “Abraham remained standing before the LORD” (v. 22). The alternative, given as a footnote, reads “but the LORD remained standing before Abraham.” It was not literally the LORD (the principal) who appeared to Abraham; it was an angel (His agent). As agent of the LORD, however, the angel is treated as the LORD. We know this must be so because the Bible is adamant: No one has seen God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12; 1 Tim. 6:16). Note too that the one angel who directly represents God is worshiped as God’s agent.

When Jacob wrestled with a heavenly being, he is said to have “seen God face to face.” So Jacob is said to have wrestled with “God” (Gen. 32:24-30). However, we know from the word of the LORD to the prophet Hosea that Jacob in struggling against God actually wrestled with an angel (Hos. 12:3-4). Jacob did not literally wrestle with the LORD (the principal); it was with an angel (His agent) that he wrestled. However as the agent of the LORD the angel is treated as the LORD. Again, we know this is so because the Bible insists: No one has ever seen God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12; 1 Tim. 6:16). So too, when Jacob, as an old man, blessed Joseph’s children he said, “May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm — may he bless these boys” (Gen. 48:15-16). Surely, God Himself is not an angel, but the angel as His agent represented Him.

Another very clear example of this type of thinking is as follows. According to Deuteronomy 4:12 it was the LORD who spoke to Israel “out of the fire” to give them His Law at Sinai. It is said to be the LORD’s own voice that they heard. Yet several Scriptures reveal the speaker to have been an angel. Stephen says that “he [Moses] was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai” (Acts 7:38). He told the Jews, “You have received the law that was put into effect through angels, and have not obeyed it” (v. 53). Paul also says, “The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator [Moses]” (Gal. 3:19). Hebrews 2:2 only serves to confirm this point, saying that the message (the law) was “spoken by angels.” This is no contradiction. The LORD did not literally speak “out of the fire.” An angel spoke. However as the agent of the LORD the angel is treated as the LORD. It is as if the LORD actually spoke.

Scripture affirms that it was God who “opened the doors of the heavens” and “rained down manna” for the people of Israel to eat during their wilderness wanderings. He gave them “the grain of heaven” to eat (Ps. 78:23-24). The manna did not literally come down from heaven, the throne of God. It was “from heaven” in that it was a gracious gift of God. So too, the manna is called “the bread of angels” (Ps. 78:25). This is probably not because angels actually have manna for breakfast. God himself provided the food, but he did it through the agency of His angels.

“The Angel of the Lord”

When Hagar saw the angel of the LORD she said, “I have now seen the one who sees me” (Gen. 16:7-14), referring to God. The angel of God said to Jacob, “I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar” (Gen 31:11-13; cf. 28:16). While it is said that “the angel of the LORD
” appeared to Moses from within the burning bush, it was God who called to him “from within the bush” (Ex. 3:1-5). Manoah, realizing he had seen “the angel of the LORD,” said to his wife, “We have seen God!” (Jud. 13:20). So too, works attributed to the “angel of the Lord” are attributed to the LORD himself. The angel is said to have brought Israel out of Egypt (Ex. 3:7-8, Jud. 2:1). He is said to have sworn to give the land to the seed of Abraham (Gen. 15:18; Jud. 2:1). It was he who is said to have “cut a covenant” with Israel (Gen. 15:18; Jud. 2:1).

To say that the angel of the LORD is the LORD Himself is inaccurate and imprecise. The angel of the LORD is the agent of the Lord and thus stands for the LORD Himself. Exodus 23:20-21 makes this clear: The LORD says, “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you, to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my name is in him.” As the LORD’s chosen representative, the angel speaks whatever he is told to speak by the LORD. The people are to obey the angel’s voice because “my [God’s] name is in him.” That is, the angel represents God when he is sent on a mission from God.

Has Anyone Ever Seen God?

When God confirmed His covenant with Israel, it is said of Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the 70 elders that they “saw the God of Israel” (Ex. 24:9-11). So too, in Exodus 33:17-23, Moses is said to have seen God’s “back.” God would not allow Moses to see His face when He passed because “no man can see Me and live.” Note, in verse 20, in God’s own words, “seeing God’s face” and “seeing God” are synonymous. Seeing God’s “back” is akin to seeing “God’s glory” (Ex. 33:18, 22), which Moses did indeed see. As the writer to the Hebrews puts it, Moses “saw Him who is invisible” (Heb. 11:27). How is it then that the Bible is so clear: “No one has ever seen God”? (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12). He “lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see” (1 Tim. 6:16). The only explanation available to us is that none of these worthies ever literally saw God. Rather they saw God’s agent, His chosen representative, who spoke with the authority of the LORD as though he were the LORD. They saw the angel of the LORD. In exactly the same manner Jesus said “He who has seen me has seen my Father” (John 14:9).

The Messiah as God’s Agent

There are a number of texts where titles explicitly referring to God in the Jewish Scriptures are referred to Jesus in the Christian Scriptures. Many take this as proof positive that the two are One in a Trinitarian sense, that is, two Persons in the One Essence of God. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, in line with all that has gone before, it can easily be shown that these verses teach the vital truth that the LORD is the principal and the Messiah is His agent. As His appointed representative Messiah stands in the place of God, but is not literally God any more than Moses, Aaron or any of the angels who stand in the place of God are literally God.

Jesus as Savior

The Jewish Scriptures are clear on this point: God is the sole Savior of Israel. The LORD says, “I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior” (Is. 43:3); “apart from Me there is no savior” (Is. 43:11; cf. 45:15, 21; 49:26; 60:16; 63:8). Nevertheless, Moses, as God’s agent, is called a savior (Acts 7:35; cp. 27 and Ex. 2:14; 18:13). The judges, as God’s appointed agents, are also called saviors (Jud. 3:9, 15; Neh. 9:27; Ex. 2:14; 18:13, Acts 7:27, 35). The prophets speak of other human agents, yet future, who will save Israel (Is. 19:20, Obad. 21).

Of course the Apostles acknowledge God as their Savior also. They speak of God as “our Savior” (1 Tim. 1:1; Tit. 1:4) and as “the Savior of all men” (1 Tim. 4:10). For them “the grace of God [the Father] brings salvation” (Tit. 2:10). But in true Biblical fashion, they also refer to Jesus, God’s ultimate agent, as Savior. He was born a Savior (Luke 2:10-11) and not just the Savior of Israel but “the world” (John 4:42). “Salvation is found in no one else.” There is “no other name” than that of Jesus “by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). They were eagerly awaiting that Savior, Jesus Christ (Phil. 3:20). This does not however prove that Jesus is the LORD God any more than the fact that Moses and the judges of Israel are called savior, makes them literally Divine. There is indeed only one ultimate Savior who is the God and Father of Jesus. Jesus is also savior as the perfect agent of the One supreme Savior. Salvation derives as Jude 25 says from “the only God” who is our principal savior “through” His agent Jesus Christ.

Jesus as Shepherd

Without doubt God is the principal “shepherd” over Israel (Gen. 49:24; 80:1; Jer. 31:10; Ezek. 34:11-16). David said, “The LORD is my shepherd” (Ps. 23). “We are His people, the sheep of His pasture” (Ps. 100). The prophet Isaiah agrees, saying, “He [the LORD] tends His flock like a shepherd” (Is. 40:11). However He shepherds His people Israel through His agents. Thus the elders of Israel were God’s appointed shepherds (2 Sam. 7:7). David himself was appointed by God to shepherd Israel (2 Sam. 5:1-3; 1 Chr. 11:1-3; Ps. 78:71). Then also a future greater “David,” the Messiah, was predicted to be God’s appointed shepherd over Israel (Ezek. 34:23-24).

Is it any wonder that Jesus, God’s ultimate agent, should refer to himself as “the good shepherd” (John 10:11, 14) or that his Apostles refer to “our Lord Jesus” as “that great shepherd of the sheep” (Heb. 13:20) and “the shepherd and overseer [bishop]” of our souls (1 Pet. 2:25). Nevertheless, this does not prove that Jesus is literally the LORD transmuted into flesh, any more than the fact that the elders of Israel and King David being styled shepherds of Israel proves them to be God incarnate.

Jesus as Judge

God is the principal judge of the whole earth (Gen. 18:25; 1 Sam. 2:10; 1 Chr. 16:33; Ps. 50:3-4; 67:4; 94:1-2; 96:13; 98:9); yet though it is said that God Himself is judge (Ps. 50:6) and that God Himself will bring every deed into judgment, “including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil” (Ecc. 12:14), God has chosen and commissioned human agents as judges to execute God’s judgment throughout Israel’s history.

Comparing Scripture with Scripture we discover that Jesus, God’s ultimate agent, actually stands for God and will judge all things at the end. “He [Jesus] will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts” (1 Cor. 4:5). “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ” (2 Cor. 5:10) when he will judge “the living and the dead” (2 Tim. 4:1).

When the Son of Man comes “all the nations will be gathered before him” (Matt. 25:31-46). The Father will actually judge no one. He has “entrusted all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22-27). The Father “has set a day when He will judge the world with justice” but through the agency of “the man He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Note that the Son does not judge in his own right but only because the Father entrusts judgment to the Son (John 5:22-27). And the Son is styled man and not God. That of course is because there is only One God, and not two!

Jesus as the Rock or Stone of Stumbling

Peter applies to Jesus the text describing the Messiah as “a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall” (Is. 8:14; cp. 1 Pet. 2:8). Again, remember Jesus is God’s agent. Thus when Isaiah says, “The LORD will be a stumbling stone,” he allows for the fact that God causes Israel to stumble over Jesus His agent. “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes” (Ps. 118:22, 23).

Jesus as the Coming One

In Isaiah 40:10 we read, “See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and His arm rules for Him. See, His reward is with Him, and His recompense accompanies Him.” Clearly, the Sovereign LORD is the Father. The phrase “His arm” may be taken to refer to Messiah (John 12:38), but “the Sovereign Lord” is the coming one; it is He who brings His reward with Him. Yet the Christian Scriptures repeatedly tell us that Jesus is the coming one (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20). Our reward is with him (Rev. 22:12). This is not because Jesus is God but because Jesus as His representative stands in place of Him.

Zechariah 14:4 should be seen in this light as well. “On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.” In the Jewish Scriptures “His feet” are the LORD’s feet. Christians believe it is Jesus who is returning to set up his Kingdom upon earth. But rather than jumping to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus is the LORD we should understand that, as the LORD’s agent, Jesus’ feet are spoken of as God’s feet in exactly the same way as Aaron’s hand is spoken of as the LORD’s hand (remember Ex. 7:17-19).

All the Second Coming passages in the OT are referred to God, but in the NT to Jesus. Since there is only one God, we know that Jesus cannot be God (which would make two!). The principle of agency steps in to provide a wonderfully satisfying solution to the apparent puzzle. God acts through and in His beloved Son and also in His sons.

Jesus as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, etc.

Surely, the same reasoning applies to Jesus’ being called “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” (1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; Rev. 19:16), King or Lord of glory (Ps. 24:7, 10; 1 Cor. 2:8), the first and the last (Isa. 44:6; 48:12; Rev. 1:17; Rev. 22:13), the Rock (1 Sam. 2:2; Ps. 18:2; 31:2; 89:26; Is. 17:10-11; Mt. 16:16; 1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:4, 6) and so on. Jesus stands in this relationship to the LORD not because he is the LORD in a literal sense, but because as God’s ultimate agent he stands for the Lord in a way that supersedes the status of Moses and Aaron or any of the angels, even the angel of the LORD, who preceded the time of Jesus.

Zechariah and the “Thirty Pieces of Silver”

Perhaps one more example will drive the point home. The prophet Zechariah, speaking about himself and recording an event in his own life, pictures his prophetic ministry as the shepherding of sheep. When he challenged the leaders of Israel to give him the wages due him, they gave him instead the price of a slave (30 pieces of silver). This surely was an insult worse than if they had not paid him at all. So the LORD told the prophet to throw it to the potter.

“And the LORD said to me, ‘Throw it to the potter, the handsome price at which they priced Me!’ So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter” (11:13). It may be that the LORD Himself speaks of being priced at 30 pieces of silver, but it was Zechariah who was so paid. Are we to assume that Zechariah is Almighty God? Not at all! Rather, in so pricing Zechariah the LORD’s agent, they thus priced the LORD Himself. So when Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Mt. 26:14-15; 27:3-10) they betrayed the LORD for 30 pieces of silver. We need no more conclude, therefore, that Jesus is the LORD in a Trinitarian sense, than we would conclude that Zechariah is the LORD. The Trinitarian idea of God in three Persons had not been imagined in NT times. A fine recent study by a German scholar, One or Three? by Karl-Heinz Ohlig, says, “The Trinity possesses no biblical foundation whatsoever” (p. 130).

Conclusion

A Jewish understanding of the law of agency is expressed in the dictum: “A person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.” God appointed Jesus the Messiah as His agent. As such anything he does is regarded as though the Almighty Himself did it. One trusts the principal in trusting the agent. This notion of principal and agency helps us to understand why if you do not honor the Son, you do not honor the Father (John 5:23; 15:23). By refusing to honor and love the agent you are refusing to honor and love the principal. We see in Jesus a perfect reflection of his principal. He who has seen and heard Jesus has seen and heard the Father (John 14:9, 10; 10:38). And remember that people should be able to see God and Jesus in you, since Christians are also God’s agents to bear the saving Gospel of the Kingdom to others.”

May 6, 2011 at 6:00 pm#245437

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,22:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2011,15:50)

Paul said…

…and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

Apparently not.

Hi all

It appears Mike is saying Paul’s words “there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE” are “apparently” not true.

Paul’s words are very clear when he says…

…and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

Paul is echoing YHWH's words when YHWH says…

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10

“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

Mike says “Only One True God” is not literal.

Mike says “Apparently not” because he believes in many gods.

It must be his 1 vote that says…

“There are other True Gods with the Only One True God!” which is a contradiction of terms.

May 6, 2011 at 7:50 pm#245448

kerwin

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,00:00)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,22:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2011,15:50)

Paul said…

…and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

Apparently not.

Hi all

It appears Mike is saying Paul’s words “there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE” are “apparently” not true.

Paul’s words are very clear when he says…

…and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

Paul is echoing YHWH's words when YHWH says…

“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

Mike says “Only One True God” is not literal.

Mike says “Apparently not” because he believes in many gods.

It must be his 1 vote that says…

“There are other True Gods with the Only One True God!” which is a contradiction of terms.

Try again since you appear not to understand Mike's point.

I assume you realize a son of God is a god.

It seems clear that Paul was using one definition for god when he quoted God's words and another when he states there are many gods.

Perhaps you should try to find out if Mike agrees with me and if so what definitions he is using or you two will keep talking past each other to no real effect.

May 6, 2011 at 8:36 pm#245450

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2011,14:50)

Try again since you appear not to understand Mike's point.

Kerwin

What is it about YHWHs and Paul’s words that imply there are “other gods but one”.

This is simply word games you guys play. There is “Only One God” but yet there are other gods. You guys should be Greeks or Romans who believed in many gods.

When Paul says there are other gods he is speaking in the context of idols that men make. Men have created those gods just like you are doing now.

How did you vote in this poll because if you voted “There is Only One True God literally”, then how can you say that there are other gods.

“Only One True God” means “Only One True God” and no other.

This is Polytheism and in fact what satan wants…

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and “ye shall be as **gods**, knowing good and evil.

A whole lot of people here are claiming they are god and that there are many gods and it looks like to me they are agreeing with Satan.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

So maybe you need to try again because the Bible is not a Polytheistic book.

May 6, 2011 at 10:26 pm#245456

terraricca

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,14:36)

Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2011,14:50)

Try again since you appear not to understand Mike's point.

Kerwin

What is it about YHWHs and Paul’s words that imply there are “other gods but one”.

This is simply word games you guys play. There is “Only One God” but yet there are other gods. You guys should be Greeks or Romans who believed in many gods.

When Paul says there are other gods he is speaking in the context of idols that men make. Men have created those gods just like you are doing now.

How did you vote in this poll because if you voted “There is Only One True God literally”, then how can you say that there are other gods.

“Only One True God” means “Only One True God” and no other.

This is Polytheism and in fact what satan wants…

A whole lot of people here are claiming they are god and that there are many gods and it looks like to me they are agreeing with Satan.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

So maybe you need to try again because the Bible is not a Polytheistic book.

it does not matter what I say ,you say or anybody else ,scriptures are teaching that there is only one true God ,but that there are many called god but are only god pretenders not really true gods,

and some are called so as a tittle just like,god, king,emperor,ect

the scriptures also tell us that only the position that God give are filled with tittles that can not be undone by men,only by God almighty.

Now God almighty is one God not two or tree,either in or out of him.

Pierre

May 7, 2011 at 9:40 am#245483

Participant

This is all word play games.

At one point WJ says 'Only one God' – then he later says 'Only one TRUE God'.

It is clear there is a difference – and his arguments PLAY on that difference.

Scriptures clearly mentions other Gods… Because 'God' is a TITLE.

And a TITLE can be given to many in context.

Kerwin, the Son of a God – is NOT a GOD…
Kerwin, a God – is not CREATED, Procreated nor made…

A 'God' becomes… But there is one that ALWAYS WAS – Always IS – and Always WILL BE : and his name is YHVH.

Jesus is called 'Mighty God'. But notice that Scriptures says 'He will be CALLED Mighty God'.

Can anyone understand this… Anyone can be CALLED anything if they perform a causation.
Can anyone understand this… If Jesus was TO BE CALLED 'Mighty God' then what IS HE before he IS that MIGHTY God.

Can I ask why folk here cannot understand that the word or term 'God' is but a title.

Kerwin, the Son of a King… Is a PRINCE.
'God' and 'King' are similar TITLES – yet no one misunderstands that there can be many kings – and that there is ONE and One Only who is King of all who are called Kings.
So why is 'God' different?

Someone has an agenda?

May 7, 2011 at 10:09 am#245485

shimmer

Participant

All, it is pretty clear that God works through 'Divine Agents'. If you studied Hebrew thought you would understand this.
There is the Principle which is God YHWH and there is the Agent/Representative.

There is only One TRUE God. YHWH.

God saved the world through Jesus. Jesus wasnt God but spoke for God. The name Yahshua means “God saves”

I hope people will read what I put earlier.
Its quite alot but it explains plenty.

If you missed it, its here:
http://focusonthekingdom.org/79.htm

May 7, 2011 at 1:59 pm#245501

Participant

Shimmer, you are perfectly correct: 'One True God'.

'One True God' – and as many 'none true Gods' as need be!

Because the word or term 'God' means : 'Mighty One' and 'Supreme' … And do we not have many persons and things that are 'Mighty Ones' and 'Supreme' – but yet they, even they, are only Mighty and Supreme in their own category of being.
There is only ONE – and can only be ONE who is MIGHTIEST and Most SUPREME above ALL that, and whom, are called MIGHTY and SUPREME: the One True ALL MIGHTY and SUPREME above Supremes… YHVH God.

Now, if Jesus was subject to death – how could he be SUPREME?
Now, when Jesus was in the grave – how could he have been Mightiest?
Now, if Jesus was Mightiest and Supreme – how COULD there be someone MIGHTIER who brought him back to life?
If Jesus was Mightiest and Supreme above all that and who are called Mighty and Supreme – how is he GIVEN power and Authority (He BORROWS power and authority) …which is later given back – from whom and to whom? None but his FATHER!

Now, is the FATHER, YHVH, ever said to be GIVEN Power, GIVEN Authority, or is the FATHER, ever said have prayed (Petitioned) anyone for anything?

It is clear that EVERYTHING already belongs to THE FATHER – and He GIVES and RECEIVES BACK that which He first GAVE…Love, power, authority, purpose and reward.

If Jesus petitioned his Father for the power to Heal the sick, Raise the dead, and Strength to carry out His word (To deliver Mankind from eternal death) then how is Jesus Supreme and Almighty?

Please acknowledge, though, that Jesus indeed BECAME a 'Mighty One' (as prophecied) for having achieved and overcome the task set to him: and do we not say the same of anyone who Achieves and overcomes a harsh trial – do we not say 'That one is a Mighty One – a God'.

Yet, the context is unambiguous: we are not saying that that one is 'The Mightiest of Mightiest' nor 'Supreme of Supremes' else that would make TWO Gods…

Finally, Trinitarian-wise, how does a Trinitarian claim that the HOLY SPIRIT – IS – God?
Certainly, the Holy Spirit is OF/From God…
Is the Angel of God – God? (How many 'Angels of God' are there?)
Is the Man of God – God? (How many 'Men of God' are there?)
Is the Son of God – God? (How many 'Sons of God' are there?)
You figure it?

May 7, 2011 at 2:52 pm#245503

Participant

Quote (Istari @ May 07 2011,04:40)

This is all word play games.

At one point WJ says 'Only one God' – then he later says 'Only one TRUE God'.

It is clear there is a difference – and his arguments PLAY on that difference.

Please tell me the difference in “Only One True God” and “Only One God”.

What does the words “ONLY ONE” mean?

If there is “Only One God” then there is “Only One True God”.

So who is playing with words?

Why don't you show me anywhere in the 66 books we have where there is an example of any followers of YHWH calling anyone or anything their God.

If you can prove that then you can say there are other “gods” in scriptures, but if you can't then that means when you see other so-called gods then they were “called” gods or idols by men who made them gods in there hearts when in fact they are not gods at all.

May 7, 2011 at 3:05 pm#245505

Participant

Quote (Istari @ May 07 2011,08:59)

Hi JA

Jesus is the “Son of man” does that mean he is not “man”?

Then why would you think that Jesus being the “ONLY (monogenes) Son of God” means Jesus is not God. (oops debunked!)

Is the term God antithetical to God?

I thought you said God is a title but it seems you are treating the title like a name.

May 7, 2011 at 3:11 pm#245506

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2011,17:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2011,14:36)

Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2011,14:50)

Try again since you appear not to understand Mike's point.

Kerwin

What is it about YHWHs and Paul’s words that imply there are “other gods but one”.

This is simply word games you guys play. There is “Only One God” but yet there are other gods. You guys should be Greeks or Romans who believed in many gods.

When Paul says there are other gods he is speaking in the context of idols that men make. Men have created those gods just like you are doing now.

How did you vote in this poll because if you voted “There is Only One True God literally”, then how can you say that there are other gods.

“Only One True God” means “Only One True God” and no other.

This is Polytheism and in fact what satan wants…

A whole lot of people here are claiming they are god and that there are many gods and it looks like to me they are agreeing with Satan.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

So maybe you need to try again because the Bible is not a Polytheistic book.

it does not matter what I say ,you say or anybody else ,scriptures are teaching that there is only one true God ,but that “there are many called god but are only god pretenders not really true gods”,…

Pierre

True. Thanks!

May 7, 2011 at 4:03 pm#245510

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ May 06 2011,04:00)

Hi Shimmer,

The information you posted was brilliant! I have personally made almost all of these arguments against either Kathi, Jack or Keith, but David Burge has done much more research than I, and has many more supporting scriptures than I have put together on my own. So thanks for this post – I will save it on my computer and reference it often.

I have tried in vain to get Keith to understand the “savior” point I quoted above, and although this particular point is off topic for this thread, I hope Keith reads the info.

peace,
mike

May 7, 2011 at 4:52 pm#245513

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,12:00)

Paul’s words are very clear when he says…

…and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE.

NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE means there are “no other gods”, period!

So are Paul's words NOT “very clear” then when he says there are many gods, both in heaven and on earth, Keith? Are Paul's words NOT “very clear” when he tells us it is THE FATHER who is our one God?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,12:00)

“BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10

Oh, you mean: Isaiah 43:10 NET
No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me. This doesn't say there are literally no other gods, period. In fact, it acknowledges the existence of other gods by saying none of them existed before YHWH, and none of them will outlive Him.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,12:00)

“DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13

Hmmmmm……………… So these non-existent “OTHER GODS” that God mentions have names? Again, this doesn't say there are literally no other gods, period, but displays the much warranted jealousy of the God OF gods.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,12:00)

This can't be referring to YOUR God, Keith. YOUR God is a “THEY” and a “THEMSELVES”, not a “HE” and a “MYSELF”. Besides, no one here is arguing that God alone created all. You are just forgetting the words of 1 Cor 8:6, which not only tells us that our one God is the Father, but also tells us that all things came FROM God THROUGH Jesus. So yes, God alone created all things, but He chose to do that THROUGH His only begotten Son.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,12:00)

Oops – this one apparently isn't about YOUR God either, for YOUR God is a “THEMSELVES”, remember? Nor does this scripture say anything about there being no other gods, just no other YHWHs.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,12:00)

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

Here's the NET translation:
Remember what I accomplished in antiquity! Truly I am God, I have no peer; I am God, and there is none like me,
I agree completely with this statement, don't you?

Keith, I've anwered all of your scriptures and points. But you seem to have neglected mine:

1. Keith, who do you suppose the gods who assemble with God are in Psalm 82:1?

2. 1 Cor 8:6 mentions “one Lord” as well as “one God”. Do you suppose Paul means there are no other “lords”, period? If not, then why do you assume he means there are no other gods, period? (Especially considering that he says there are many gods and many lords?)

3. In 1 Cor 8:6, Paul tells us exactly who our “one God” is. He says it is “the Father”. Why do you go to extremes to claim that “one God” must be absolutely literal, but then completely ignore the fact that Paul names that “one God” as someone OTHER THAN Jesus, who he names as our “one Lord”?

Keith, there are many gods mentioned in the scriptures – many of whom are vice regents of God Himself, and many of whom are said to assemble with God Himself.

4. Do you suppose that Jehovah spends His time assembling with “false gods” and “idols”?

5. Do you suppose that Jehovah would appoint “false gods” and “idols” as His vice regents commisioned to carry out His purposes?

mike

May 7, 2011 at 4:58 pm#245514

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2011,14:36)

Kerwin

What is it about YHWHs and Paul’s words that imply there are “other gods but one”.

Keith,

What is it about Paul's words “there are many gods and many lords” that imply there is literally only one god? What is it about Paul's words “yet for us there is but one God, THE FATHER”, that imply THE SON is that “one God”?

And you say WE are playing word games?

mike

May 7, 2011 at 5:36 pm#245515

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2011,16:26)

it does not matter what I say ,you say or anybody else ,scriptures are teaching that there is only one true God ,but that there are many called god but are only god pretenders not really true gods,

Hi Pierre,

Is Jesus a “pretender” and “not really a true god”?

Hey All,

I've read your posts. And while it seems we are all on the same page about Jesus not being God Almighty (except for Keith, of course), we all seem to differ on this “god” issue. I'll tell you how I understand it, and you can all either agree or disagree with my understanding.

The word “el” stems from the ancient word for “fear” – as in “one whom we should fear”. The use of “fear” referred not so much to “FRIGHT”, but more to “REVERE”. So “el” (god) referred to one whom we should revere. This word was used in reference to men, angels, idols, pagan gods, and Jehovah Himself.

For example, Deborah, who was appointed as Judge over Israel by God Himself, was called a god. Angels who delivered God's messages were called gods. Keep in mind that these persons were people who God Himself supported and appointed, and so were not “false gods” or “idols”, but rather vice regents of the God OF gods.

When one was called god, it was not automatically assumed that this one was a spirit being, or from eternity, or that this one even had supernatural powers. It was only assumed that this one should be revered – similar to the way a human king would have been revered.

Among all of those who were to be revered, the god who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them was to be revered the most – above all other gods. So when God says, “I am God and there are no others”, it was similar to Him saying “I am the King of the world, and there are no others”. It didn't mean there were literally no other kings in the world, period. Instead, it was an emphatic way for Him to say He was ABOVE all of the other kings of the world.

In the OT, the word god was used equally of men in power and spirit beings who should be revered. By the time of the NT, the mood had changed, and you can see that in most cases, the word god was used to refer to someone linked to the supernatural, and was not used for mere human beings anymore. And since the time of the NT, the mood has changed even more, for now most people think of ONLY the Creator of the universe when the word god is mentioned. And since most of us realize there is only ONE Creator of the universe, it is easy for us to take the “one god” wording in the Bible to mean there are literally no other gods, period.

Do you see what's happened over time? We've gone from the word god meaning anyone at all who should be revered, to the word god referring ONLY to the Omniscient Creator of the universe. We must all remember that the word did NOT refer ONLY to the Omniscient Creator of the universe in Biblical times like it does today. Today, if one asks, “Does the Bible teach of only one god?”, the answer is usually “YES”, because we today link the WORD god to the ONLY OMNISCIENT CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, as if He is the ONLY One ever called by that title. But that understanding is not scriptural, for the word god was used of many in Biblical times, with the understanding that the Omniscient Creator of the universe was the God OF all of the other gods.

peace to all,
mike

May 7, 2011 at 6:18 pm#245517

terraricca

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2011,11:36)

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2011,16:26)

it does not matter what I say ,you say or anybody else ,scriptures are teaching that there is only one true God ,but that there are many called god but are only god pretenders not really true gods,

Hi Pierre,

Is Jesus a “pretender” and “not really a true god”?

Hey All,

peace to all,
mike

Mike

I also say this ;

Quote

the scriptures also tell us that only the position that God give are filled with tittles that can not be undone by men,only by God almighty

Jesus is one of those that received his tittle from God,not from men,

Moses also received his tittle from God;Ex 4:16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.

all men and men made gods are only pretenders,they do not have goddly powers ,
1Sa 5:1 After the Philistines had captured the ark of God, they took it from Ebenezer to Ashdod.
1Sa 5:2 Then they carried the ark into Dagon’s temple and set it beside Dagon.
1Sa 5:3 When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD? They took Dagon and put him back in his place.

so yes you right in your explanation ,I just made a short comment.

Pierre

May 7, 2011 at 6:30 pm#245519