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Hi Martian,
In another thread you said
“Even the word “begotten” means began. Jesus had a beginning upon his conception in the womb.”
HmmmHi WJ,
In the trinity thread you gave us another interesting interpretation of MONGENESThis is why he is called the “Monogenes” Unique Son of God, because his Spirit is God. The Spirit of God the Spirit of Christ. Rom 8
hmmmm
So he is not really a son then at all?Can anyone tell me why Jesus so called father Joseph has two fathers: In Matthew Joseph's father and Jesus' so called Grandfather is called Jacob, and in Luke he is called Heli?
Nick, “Monogenes” God's unique son, which you say is his Pre-existent son/being is called so because like Isaac, Abraham's unique “monogenes” son, he was a son of promise. Promised long before Abraham received the promise of his unique son, Isaac. He was not Abraham's “only son” for he had others, and so does God. The angels are sons of God are they not. I do not believe Jesus is an angel, but that he is the unique son of God and you have no evidence to prove that Jesus is the eternal, pre-existent son of God – you have more scripture to say that what was in the beginning was the Word, but that was not a Divine being. That which was with God, his word, that which created the world, became flesh.
Artizan…you misinterpret…
Jesus being begotten means….THAT HE WAS THE ONLY SON OF GOD CREATED DIRECTLY BY GOD's HANDS…Yes god had other sons..but not begotten sons…All of Abrahams sons were begotten by him…THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE
The word is divine…here maybe this will help..
etymology:Divine- divine (adj.)
c.1305 (implied in divinity), from O.Fr. devin, from L. divinus “of a god,” from divus “a god,” related to deus “god, deity” (see Zeus). Weakened sense of “excellent” had evolved by c.1470. Divinity is from c.1300.Proverbs 8:1-32…Wisdom personified…research these scriptures and it will give you further enlightenment on the subject
Quote (Artizan007 @ June 05 2008,01:35) Nick, “Monogenes” God's unique son, which you say is his Pre-existent son/being is called so because like Isaac, Abraham's unique “monogenes” son, he was a son of promise. Promised long before Abraham received the promise of his unique son, Isaac. He was not Abraham's “only son” for he had others, and so does God. The angels are sons of God are they not. I do not believe Jesus is an angel, but that he is the unique son of God and you have no evidence to prove that Jesus is the eternal, pre-existent son of God – you have more scripture to say that what was in the beginning was the Word, but that was not a Divine being. That which was with God, his word, that which created the world, became flesh.
Wonderful post my brother, I fully agree with that.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,01:42)
Artizan…you misinterpret…Jesus being begotten means….THAT HE WAS THE ONLY SON OF GOD CREATED DIRECTLY BY GOD's HANDS…Yes god had other sons..but not begotten sons…All of Abrahams sons were begotten by him…THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE
Hi DK, where is that in the Bible?
AdamHey GM..my brother..
John 3:16
If you notice no other son of God is said to be “begotten”…the reason for this is because they were created by God THRU jesus…therefore they are not able to be properly called “begotten sons”
etymology: beget-beget
O.E. begietan “to get by effort, find, acquire, attain, seize,” from be- + get (q.v.). Sense of “to procreate” is from 1205.also notice the related etymology of this word:
progeny
c.1300, from O.Fr. progenie (13c.), from L. progenies “descendants, offspring,” from progignere “beget,” from pro- “forth” + gignere “to produce, beget.”beget
Verb
[-getting, -got] or -gat;-gotten or -got Old-fashioned
1. to cause or create: repetition begets boredom
2. to father [Old English begietan]beget
verb 1. (Old-fashioned) cause, bring, produce, create, effect, lead to, occasion, result in, generate, provoke, induce, bring about, give rise to, precipitate, incite, engender
verb 2. father, breed, generate, sire, get, propagate, procreateBeget \Be*get”\, v. t. [imp. Begot, (Archaic) Begat; p. p. Begot, Begotten; p. pr. & vb. n. Begetting.]
[OE. bigiten, bigeten, to get, beget, AS. begitan to get; pref. be- + gitan. See Get, v. t. ]
1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; — commonly said of the father.
Yet they a beauteous offspring shall beget. –Milton.
2. To get (with child.) [Obs.]
–Shak.
3. To produce as an effect; to cause to exist.
Love is begot by fancy. –Granville.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Your interpretation on Jn 3:16 is wrong. It talks about Jesus' birth that has taken place in a unique way on this earth. It doesn't mean some how God begot Jesus as lightenUp was claiming as light in Gen 1:2-3.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 05 2008,03:52) Your interpretation on Jn 3:16 is wrong. It talks about Jesus' birth that has taken place in a unique way on this earth. It doesn't mean some how God begot Jesus as lightenUp was claiming as light in Gen 1:2-3.
Really…prove it thru a logic progression of scripture in context with the whole bible thenHey GM..brother
I already have….you said what i posted was wrong..so now i say prove it thru a logical progression of scriptures that take the whole bible into context
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,01:42) Jesus being begotten means….THAT HE WAS THE ONLY SON OF GOD CREATED DIRECTLY BY GOD's HANDS…Yes god had other sons..but not begotten sons…All of Abrahams sons were begotten by him…THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE
Issac was Abe's firstborn son. When Abe had a chat with God telling him he was going to have to leave his posessions to a servant, God told him he would have a son from his own body that would be his heir.Likewise, God has other sons, but Jesus is his firstborn of Mary, from his own body, and truly Jesus will enherit all. We will co-inherit.
Perhaps there is another way to look at things, huh? I don't believe “begotten” is only defined as you have above.
Hi not3,
And indeed Jesus was through Mary.
Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,01:42) Artizan…you misinterpret… Jesus being begotten means….THAT HE WAS THE ONLY SON OF GOD CREATED DIRECTLY BY GOD's HANDS…Yes god had other sons..but not begotten sons…All of Abrahams sons were begotten by him…THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE
Hi dirtyknections,I think you presume to much in making this statement. Where in the Scriptures does it say what you have said. Where does it say God created the angels and did not beget them? What is the difference anyway… IF God brought them to life, he begat them. To be born, to beget, or to form and to give life means something comes into existence that before it was born or it was formed did not exist.
How was the first man formed? Directly by God's hands – God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into him the breath of life… “holy ruach” life. And adam [man, human, humanity] became a living creature – Adam who was called the son of God!
You are right Abraham that begat all his son's, so how then was Isaac his “only begotten” son, or his “one and only” son… Again I say, it was because he was the only son born of a promise. Isaac was the miracle child, whereby God breathed life, opening up Sarah's womb [in her old age] and she begat the promise; Isaac – so that God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12 would come to pass. How could this be? Because like Elisabeth whose womb God opened [in her old age], she begat her son of promise – John, why FOR NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD!!! Notice the angel said this of Elisabeth and not of Mary's conception. But both “conceived”!
This term “only begotten” seems to me to only surface in the books affiliated with John and once the book to of Hebrews. Matthew, Mark and Luke all say “Beloved” – this gives a very different picture. the Gospel of “John” I use parentheses because we do not know if John actually wrote this gospel, turns all the other gospels on their head… for example; Mark says nothing of the light, Matthew says “we are the light of the world”, those living in darkness have seen a great light, (not a person, but revelation) and Luke says, John the B is come to bring light to those who sit in darkness and to guide their feet to a way of peace, we are the light, dont hide your light, and he compares the children of light to the children of darkness. However John spins this on its head… Jesus becomes the Light of the World a concept unique to John as is the term “only begotten”… all the others use “beloved”.
Hi Nick,
You say Jesus was through Mary – you mean “of” or “through”? Anyhow, the scripture you quote has nothing to do with the topic. It is talking of salvation and receiving the promises, not of begetting.
So for you Nick Jesus was a pre-existent being? A demi-God then; sounds like the idea of the “Demurge” – the idea that kindled the flame for Justin Martyr's pre-existence of Christ ideas.
Usually capitalized a in Platonism: the subordinate god who fashions the sensible world in the light of eternal ideas
In some Gnostic systems: an inferior not absolutely intelligent deity who is the creator of the material world and is frequently identified with the creator God of the Old Testament
Something (as an institution, idea, or individual) conceived as an autonomous creative force or decisive power that too was a gain in spiritual balance, provided the machine was not conceived as a demiurge that ruled all other human needs– Lewis Mumford
Dem”i*urge (?), n. [Gr. dhmioyrgo`s a worker for the people, a workman, especially the maker of the world, the Creator; dh`mios belonging to the people (fr. dh^mos the people) + 'e`rgon a work.] 1. (Gr. Antiq.) The chief magistrate in some of the Greek states.
2. God, as the Maker of the world.
3. According to the Gnostics, an agent or one employed by the Supreme Being to create the material universe and man.
From your posts, this sounds pretty close to what you believe… am I right?
Hi A7,
Jesus is the monogenes son of God sent into the world.
Of course other sons were there too when earth was created as Jb 38 shows.
Have you been overcome by the worldly religious ideas of men having been so promising?I understand what you are saying Nick, I don't pretend understand all things because God does not make things very clear at times, using metaphorical language, or mystery saying, parables that relate to another culture and can be taken litteraly, metaphorically, allegorically or spiritually etc etc, and evidently His Spirit works in and reveals the same scriptures in different ways, depending on the preconceived ideas we approach those scripture with – as we can see on this site.
However, that said, there is something about John that makes me wary.
Firstly it is the oldest of the accepted writings, therefore furthest away from the event. We cannot be certain it was written by the apostle John, and unlike the other gospels, there was controversy over its acceptance into the cannon because of its gnostic tendency.
The first person to write a commentary on it, was a gnostic heretic called Heracleon and it was taken on board by the Valentinians as their flagship gospel. The way Jesus is presented in this Gospel seems gnostic; the writer uses mystical saying propagated by some of the mystery cults. Also Jesus' humanity is somewhat removed, unlike the Synoptic gospels that reveal Jesus in all his humanity – We say it is written to combat gnosticism, but hidden wisdom runs throughout this gospel. Maybe it combats extreme gnosticism, but the seeds of gnosticism and a special gnosis can be found within the text – without doubt.
I am constantly aware as I read the NT, that Jesus said in Matthew 13, that the good seed or wheat planted by Himself would be supplanted with the bad seed or tares of the evil one… whilst men slept. These tares looking like the wheat, would grow up together till the end. Such ambiguous statements could be made to say anything, but I take this to mean that I must be aware of another gospel other than the message that Jesus came to reveal…
I am here to find answers that three years of college have not come close to answering. So what I put out there on this forum, which I feel safe to ask and challenge things that I would not discuss amongst friends who have never studied. I want truth, and believe this is the best place I can question, learn and grow.
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