Mistakes and sins

Participant

Tim Kraft,

This passage explicitly labels sins as acts of the sinful nature and then gives some examples.

Galatians 5:19-21(NIV) reads:

Quote

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It also explicitly state if you regulate your life according to these acts then you will not be saved on that day and scripture cannot be broken.

July 1, 2010 at 5:56 am#201147

chosenone

Participant

In this presesnt era, God does not see our sins, we have been “justified” by Christ Jesus, He has paid our debt for all mankinds sins, past, present, and future.

2.Cor.5:18-19… 18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.

Having said this, we must understand what “concilliation” means. Following explanation:

'A' & 'B' are angry with one another.

'A' relents and “conciliates” with 'B', but 'B' still angry. 'A' has “conciliated” with B.

'B' now relents, therefore 'A' & 'B' have reconciliated with each other. 'A' & 'B' are reconciled.

Note in 2Cor.5:18-19, God has “conciliated” the world to Himself, all mankind has not yet been “reconciliated”, still a one way act, God to mankind, but not (all) mankind to God. In the future, at the consummation (1Cor. 15:28) God will reconcile ALL mankind to Himself.

This is how I see it.

God Bless, Jerry.

July 1, 2010 at 6:40 am#201156

SimplyForgiven

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2010,01:43)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 01 2010,05:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2010,17:58)

SF………Yes it certainly can be a iniquity as Jesus plainly said that (MANY) would come and say Lord, Lord, in (Your) name we did the works and He would respond to them depart from me you (WORKERS) of Iniquity. Jesus did not deny they had done those works did He? It was works of (Iniquity) because they thought they were pleasing Jesus by attributing (their) works to Him , They were not being guided by a Spirit of Love , they were being guided by a spirit of self preservation and thought if they did these self works in Jesus' name that equaled salvation for them. But God work is something He Does (IN) us and we simply respond to it by the fruits of Love and Peace. You can't earn you way in to the kingdom of GOD it must be recieved by GRACE, Not of Works least any boast.

But back to the main question what does it mean when God said He would forgive us of our Sins (and)our Iniquities. They obviously are not one and the same thing or why would they be mentioned separately. So the conclusion is that they must be different (types) of transgressions. I still maintain they are different in this sense one is a known sin while a Iniquity is a unknown sin. IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

Gene,
im confused.

Im trying to clearly understand you,

1) are you saying its wrong to do things in Jesus name?
2) everyone knows God, but God doesnt know everyone. when it comes to relationship, as the context shows in Mat17 that there is a NARROW way. only for a few.
3) are we agreeing? are you also stating that one can not use good works to be saved?
4) if they let the holy spirit work in them, they would have known. but sinced they rejected, it didnt happen.

just clarify for me.

fyi the main question whether sin and a mistake is the same or different

SF………Where did a say it was wrong to do something in Jesus name. There is nothing wrong with my grammar i don't think, but to clarify what is said . I said It (can) be wrong too . Obviously it was wrong for those who said in your Name we did all these good works . right . I won't say any more it might confuse you. By the way sin is sin rather it is a mistake or not One is termed plain sin the other is Iniquity. Hope this is not to difficult for you.

peace and love…………………gene

Gene,

Im saying the way you explain things is confusing.
Its better when you just stick to scripture.

im not an idoit.

if you just answered my question directly it would have been simpler.

anyways

1) Good works doesnt save
2) You say that Sin and mistakes are the same.

yes or no.

July 1, 2010 at 7:13 am#201158

Participant

Choosenone,

Are you saying God who know everything does not know we sin because he cannot see our sins? I thought he was all seeing but you seem to choose to believe otherwise.

The word “justified” is defined as meaning “having a good reason for the action taken”. It appears from what your wrote that you mean that Jesus is a good reason for sinning. I assure you that is not what the righteous God teaches.

Instead scripture teaches us that we ourselves are justified and not our sins. We are justified because we believe what God states but this is only true if we actually believe what God states.

So do you believe that those that hunger and thirst for righteousness will stop sinning by following all the teachings of Jesus the Anointed, Matthew 5:6? Do you believe that the Son will realy set you free from obeying the commad to sin, John 8:34-36?

We are reconciled to God by overcomming the world, i.e. stopping to sin. Obeying all of Jesus teachings is how we accomplish that goal.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin

July 1, 2010 at 8:03 am#201161

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2010,16:56)

In this presesnt era, God does not see our sins, we have been “justified” by Christ Jesus, He has paid our debt for all mankinds sins, past, present, and future.

This is how I see it.

God Bless, Jerry.

Hi Chosenone,

Keep telling yourself un-Biblical lies and see how far it gets you?

Heb.10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of
judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 1, 2010 at 8:47 am#201167

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 01 2010,14:03)

Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2010,16:56)

In this presesnt era, God does not see our sins, we have been “justified” by Christ Jesus, He has paid our debt for all mankinds sins, past, present, and future.

This is how I see it.

God Bless, Jerry.

Hi Chosenone,

Keep telling yourself un-Biblical lies and see how far it gets you?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Excellent choice of scripture for a response!

July 1, 2010 at 10:04 am#201173

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2010,15:24)

Tim Kraft,

This passage explicitly labels sins as acts of the sinful nature and then gives some examples.

Galatians 5:19-21(NIV) reads:

Quote

It also explicitly state if you regulate your life according to these acts then you will not be saved on that day and scripture cannot be broken.

Kerwin: Those are act of a person with a sinful nature! A person who believes he is in sin or has sin has a sinful nature and the truth of God, that he is clean, in not in him.

The acts/fruit of a pure, perfected, cleansed son of God are:
love, peace, joy, longsuffering, meeknes, kindness thankfulness, appreciation etc.!

There are many things written in the Bible that were truly written but were not necessarily the truth of God. If you wish to take the words of Paul over the words and teaching of Jesus then so be it.

Paul, Peter, James, et.al. had their own beliefs and wrote accordingly. If what they wrote aligns with what Jesus said then I consider it truth. I would never believe them over Jesus.

If you choose to believe you are in sin then you cannot be in union with God. If you don't see in that scripture that those are by-products of one who believes he has a sinful nature, then you are dead in you own sin and tresspasses.

Didn't Jesus take away our sin? How could Jesus take away our works? Didn't Jesus forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive others their tresspasses. Does this mean that Jesus forgave us our works as we forgive others works?

Go ahead and deny the lord Jesus and the work of salvation that he did FOR us so we could enter his rest from works. When you stand before God (right now) tell him you believed a misunderstood Galations scripture more than the entire mission of Jesus to cleanse mankind so that they could have God dwelling within.

The interesting thing here is that you are directly denying what Jesus did for us to enable you to hold on to a scripture that seems to you to make you unclean before God until someday in the future.

Anyone that chooses to can read what Jesus said about us in the 15th Chapter of John. Its your choice what to believe.

There are Godly acts and sinful, unGodly acts. Either will come forth from what you believe you are in Gods eyes.

Try following Jesus the lord and saviour. This is the sabbath day of rest in Jesus. No more works for God. It is finished and sealed by Christ. The gift of perfection is handed to mankind on a silver platter with no strings attached but to believe. And we can't seem to even do that!! God bless you, TK

July 1, 2010 at 10:45 am#201179

Participant

Tim Kraft,

It seems that you believe that Paul, Peter, James, et. el were false teachers and therefore served the evil one and were not actually student adherents of Jesus as they claimed. I will not defend them as what they taught is their defense.

I will point out that Jesus also taught that the person who loves God obeys God and thus does the works of righteousness for obedience is love to God, Luke 11:28.

God did not at any time claim that those that obeyed all his Son’s teachings would not have a sinful nature but rather he claimed they would choose not to give into the temptations that came from that nature. Paul is merely urging those Christians in Galatia to not obey the dictates of the sinful nature but instead obey the dictates of the spirit of righteousness and so show their love of God.

Instead of denying your sinful nature it is wiser to seek a way to overcome it and do all that is right and that way is to do all that Jesus teaches you. If you obey Jesus then all the sins that you commit before reaching that goal, and you real reach the goal of being righteous as God is righteous, will be forgiven. In fact just believing that God will do as he promised as long as your persevere in that believe is enough for you to be credited for the goal already being reach because God will do as he promised.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin Brown.

July 1, 2010 at 12:44 pm#201182

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 01 2010,21:45)

Tim Kraft,

I will point out that Jesus also taught that the person who loves God obeys God and thus does the works of righteousness for obedience is love to God, Luke 11:28.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin Brown.

Kerwin: A teacher is a teacher. There is no such thing as a false teacher. A teacher teaches! Most teachers teach what they believe to be the truth. If what he teaches is false then it is a false teaching from a true teacher.

The disciples wanted to know, “what shall we do to work the works of God…”John 5:28&29—-Jesus answered and said,”This is the work of God that you believe him who was sent..” The work of God is believing what Jesus has done for us.
this is the work of God to believe in Jesus… John 6:29

There is no work for righteousness except to believe that Jesus made you righteous! Love does not tell you what to do.
It will give you choices but never tell you what to choose.

He that believeth hath everlasting life…John 6:47

Jesus taketh away the sin of the world…John 1:29

being made free from sin…Rom 6:18

Jesus manifested to take away our sin (not works) 1John 3:5

Luke 11:28—“blessed are they that heareth the word of God and keep it (adhere to it, believe it, hold fast to it, believe)!

You cannot work out your sin. You either believe sin is removed through the free gift of Jesus or you live with a sin nature. If one lives in sin he lives without
God. You cannot be with God and have a sin nature.

These truthes are for everyone who will accept and believe the true gift of God in Christ Jesus. God has blessed all with this gift of love, TK

July 1, 2010 at 12:47 pm#201183

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kerwin………I think you are missing Tim's point, and what some of Chosenone points. First the words Justified before GOD, means to be made in right standing before God, And we have been by th blood of Christ, in God's eyes we (are) in a forgiven state, He does not take into account our sins and transgression any longer we have (PASSED) from Judgment to life as Jesus said. Tim is not saying it is ok to sin , He is saying we should consider ourselves as clean and no longer in a sin state, because God Has justified us through the blood of Christ.

Chosenone is saying the same thing, GOD has consolidated Himself to us through the blood of Christ. We are no longer considered sinners, because of the blood of Jesus. Self works to acquire salvation is actually against the Grace of GOD, it say I don't need Jesus' blood for my righteous standing before God , i can make it on my own apart from any Grace offered by GOD. Paul understood this that is why he explained that HE could not attain on his own because of sin that dwelt in his BODY, but in His mind He served the laws of God, This is the same with us also, we can not make it on our own self standing , we must go to God through Jesus Christ and we (ALL) have been Justified before GOD , through the Blood of Christ.

We as Tim is showing should believe that, and accept it , we are clean in God's eyes, we have put on clean garments (the blood of Christ) cover us. Most peoples problems are they are not walking in (belief) of our righteous standing in Christ. Remember We stand in the Faith of Jesus Christ , no in (our) good Works, As if God owed us something and therefore gave us our pay of salvation because we earned it. It is By (Grace) unmerited pardon, we are Saved and that not of or from ourselves, it is a (GIFT) from GOD. No one here is justifying sin , because how can you continue or practice sin if you truly have been cleansed by the blood of Christ Jesus. Sin does not have dominion over us any longer we have all mastered it through the blood of Jesus Christ. Having recieve this by the Grace of GOD we have become a new creation (created) unto good works. Faith is the Key it is that victory we Have. Like John said and this is our victory , OUR FAITH. I think you already know this. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

July 1, 2010 at 12:59 pm#201184

Participant

Gene: I felt more love and understanding from your post. Thanks, I will attempt to show more love because that is what I love. Bless you TK

July 1, 2010 at 1:01 pm#201185

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 01 2010,23:44)

Kerwin: A teacher is a teacher. There is no such thing as a false teacher. A teacher teaches! Most teachers teach what they believe to be the truth. If what he teaches is false then it is a false teaching from a true teacher.

There is no work for righteousness except to believe that Jesus made you righteous!

Hi TK,

Tell me, what does Phil.2:12 mean to you, TK?

Phil.2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Please explain: what 1Thes.2:12 means to you, TK?

1Thes.2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 1, 2010 at 4:18 pm#201197

Participant

Gene,

You are too concerned with being forgiven and not enough with obeying God. In your obsession with forgiveness you turn the grace of God into an excuse to do evil. That is unacceptable.

Why should I be concerned with being forgiven as God forgives those who do all he commands. In short if I concern myself with obeying all God commands then being forgiven is a foregone conclusion.

The only way I can obey all God commands is to obey all of Jesus' teachings and to do that I must believe God when he states that he will stop me from sinning if I hunger and thirst for righteousness. The evidence that I hunger and thirst for righteousness is that I believe all the message of the gospel.

What I hear from Choosenoone and Tim is unbelief and that concerns me as I want no one to perish. In my concern I strive to point out their error hoping that part of them will respond and they will come to believe that God can and will actually stop them from sinning if they persevere in believing. Satan wants people to believe otherwise as he is the accuser and his accusation is that we are a flawed creation that is unable to obey all of God's commands. That belief is a half-truth but through God all things are possible.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin

July 1, 2010 at 4:22 pm#201198

Participant

Tim Kraft,

I see you also disagree with 2 Peter 2:1 when we are warned to be on the watch for false teachers who will introduce destructive heresies.

I choose to take that and other warnings from God to heart.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin

July 1, 2010 at 11:28 pm#201264

942767

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 27 2010,19:09)

Hi All,

Lets dicuss these differences if there is any according to scripture,

Mistakes and Sins.

Is making an imperfect choice based on an individuals own will, a Sin?

God cant make mistakes.. so if we commit a mistake its because me made an imperfect choice.

Is that a sin, a trespass before God?

what say you?

Hi:

A mistake or imperfect choice may or may not be a sin depending on the circumstances.

Love in Christ,
Marty

July 2, 2010 at 3:22 am#201309

GeneBalthrop

Participant

kerwin……….Quite wrong where have i ever said we are not to do what is right in God's Eyes . In Fact (IF) God Spirit of Love is working in you your will (by your New nature ) do the very same things Jesus and God the father does. ,Where we are losing connect on this is you are not understanding exactly what we are saying , It like you going on a journey of Self Justification as your means of Pleasing GOD, not from (His) Spirit work (IN) a person. What do you do with this scripture , ” For we are created unto good works” do you think you are this creator that brings you unto good work, or is it God the Creator and giver of True Righteousness (IN) a person. WE are not saying Good Works are not fruit of that Spirit because they are, and that Spirit is not a Spirit (intellect) of sin. You view seem to completely eliminate God in your walk, you tend to be much like the old Israelites who thought true righteousness come from them trying to keep God Laws , But not one attained to it by the works of law, Paul tells us< "For they sought to establish (themselves) through the works of the Law" , not by Faith in GOD. Please don"t think i am saying practicing evil is OK because that would be a lie i have never said that ever. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

July 2, 2010 at 3:52 am#201313

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2010,03:18)

Gene,

You are too concerned with being forgiven and not enough with obeying God. In your obsession with forgiveness you turn the grace of God into an excuse to do evil. That is unacceptable.

Why should I be concerned with being forgiven as God forgives those who do all he commands. In short if I concern myself with obeying all God commands then being forgiven is a foregone conclusion.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin

Hi Kerwin,

Much of the confusion is based on a mistranslation of the word 'justified'.
This is because there is no verb in English for the noun Righteousness.

The Lie from Lucifer is that God 'justifies' us in our sinful nature;
but this couldn't be any farther from what the Scripture is actually saying!

This is where the confusion such as we see from Gene and TK stem from.
The correct way for Romans 3:28 to be translated is to use a made up non-existent English verb: “Righteousify”

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is [Righteousified by faith] without the deeds of the law.
Because God makes us Righteous in our actions, without the worry of: are we keeping all of the Law at all times!

God bless you Kerwin!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 2, 2010 at 4:21 am#201319

Participant

Gene,

Consider the message the Peter taught on Pentecost. He specifically instructed those that were cut to the heart to such an extent that they asked him and other apostles what they should do that they must repent and me immersed in the name of Jesus. The reason he gave for doing that is that they would be forgiven of their sins. He also added that if they did as he instructed them then they would receive the gift of the spirit of Holiness.

We know they believed the gospel because they were cut to the heart and looked to do something about it. I am going to point out the time line of two actions and the first in the timeline is repentantance and after that comes forgiveness.

Repentance means to make a change for the better as a result of remorse for ones past actions.

In this case I would state that a believer must see the evil of his past action and desire to change for the better. As long as the desire is there God gives the means to change by giving the gift of the spirit of righteousness. The spirit does not hide one's unrighteousness as Choosenoone states and one does not deny his own sinful nature as Tim states but rather one does not sin when they live according to the spirit of righteosness. If one lives according to the spirit then one is truly forgiven for the sins that we commited beforehand. If one does not then they are not forgiven and will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

It is true that God commanded the children of Israel to obey all he commanded them but they could not live by the spirit and so all were slaves to sin. Jesus sealed the new covenant with his blood and thus brought the spirit of righteousness to aid those that believe. Unlike those that went before those in the new covenat could live by the spirit.

I assure God does not change like the shifting sands and the God of the Old Testiment is the God of the New Testiment.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin

July 2, 2010 at 4:26 am#201322

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2010,15:21)

Gene,

Repentance means to make a change for the better as a result of remorse for ones past actions.

I assure God does not change like the shifting sands and the God of the Old Testiment is the God of the New Testiment.

Your fellow student,

Kerwin

Hi Kerwin,

Excellent Post Brother!

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 2, 2010 at 9:34 am#201332