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Thank you for your explanation. So you think he denies the power of God because he may or may not be J.W. Interesting. I didn’t see anything about any specific religion in this thread, and what that religion believes, so I’m not sure if that explanation actually answers the question, however what I got from this thread is that today God does not give men the power to perform miracles; I also saw scriptures and reasoning behind those scriptures…not that God himself does not have the power..just that he no longer gives that power to men today to perform miraculous healings. I could be wrong but I think he is actually talking about men today that claim to have the power to heal the sick. I actually do not believe that men today have the power to spiritually heal the sick but that does not mean that I deny God’s power. I deny man’s power to heal the sick. That’s why when I’m sick, I go to a medical doctor and not the a spiritual healer. Where do you go when you get sick? Probably to a medical doctor; but why do you go to a doctor who will just give you medicine and man made treatments. Why not go to a spiritual healer and have him heal you through the power of God. Does this mean that you also deny the power of God? Of course not.
Whenever the power to heal was evident it was never open to everyone otherwise Jesus could have healed all people all at once but the odd thing is about miracles is people only believe them when they are uncommon and the purpose of showing miracles are so that people can believe…If everyone on earth was healed in every way today including mental and financial health it would seem to be an unimaginably wonderful miracle but that fact is man is ever ungrateful and would quickly fall into disbelief because if it happens to everyone the logic with man is it is no longer a miracle but a basic right
Hi UMB5.
In the book of Sirach [ecclesiasticus] -one of the so called Apocrypha- about chapter 36 it says as I recall.
“My son when you get sick first pray. Then call the doctor as God has given him wisdom….”
I suggest it is the way things should be done for believers.
Hi,
Daniel said
“Knowledge will increase”
It has and folks have become more reliant on that knowledge than the Creator God.
Will there be faith on earth when Jesus returns?
My point was simply that just because one does not believe that men today do not have the power to perform miracles, does not mean they deny the power of God. I agree that you should pray when sick…when well.. when happy…when sad…to say thank you…to say sorry…but I just do not believe (like David) that God today gives man his power to miraculously heal people. The wisdom to heal people…Yes…(as you quoted) the power of miracle to heal people…no… That does not mean that I (or David) deny the power of God. That’s all I was saying. I’m not sure what all that other stuff was that you were talking about. I may have confused you…I apologize.
Hi UMB5,
So you could say that based on your observations.
But go back to the scriptures.
God has never said the rules have changed.
He has never said the Holy Spirit of power will no longer be given.
Men have.
“If you do not have the Spirit of Christ you are none of his”
Hi umb5,
Man is always the problem.
One is issue is the false doctrines.
Because of these men do not enter the kingdom.
Instead they discuss the scriptures and enjoy human fellowship.
“Seek ye first the kingdom and everything else will be added to you.”
Hi UMB5,
Unless you are reborn from above you cannot see the kingdom.
First we must obey- not man but God speaking through His human vessels especially Jesus Christ.
Men have supplanted Jesus as teacher, master and head of the Church.
Their insipid insights have taken more importance than Holy scripture.
And satan is having a good old laugh as sincere folk follow him to the fire.
Hi umb5,
Jesus lit a fire.
He opened the door to men doing what he did in the power of the Spirit.
Intellectuals and philosophers reliant on their human vision and hearing have all but quenched that fire but embers remain.
Go back to the start.
Hi UMB5,
Human religion is a vast industry but the activity of God in this tumult is largely absent.
Man’s religion continues along quite happily without any involvement of God.
Such is the success of demonic deception.
Hi UMB5
David’s posts on page one are jumbled direct quotes from the Watchtower.Quote David:
There is already a thread on speaking in tongues. But I think there should be one on MIRACLES. Specifically, in the Christian congregation.
Here’s a question to get us started:
Why did the early Christians perform miracles?Most basic, they helped to establish or confirm the fact that a man was receiving power and support from God. (Ex 4:1-9)
Jesus’ miracles helped observers to identify him as that one. (De 18:18; Joh 6:14)
When Christianity was young, miracles worked in conjunction with the message to help individuals to see that God was behind Christianity and had turned from the earlier Jewish system of things. (Heb 2:3, 4)
In time miraculous gifts present in the first century would pass away. They were needed only during the infancy of the Christian congregation.—1Co 13:8-11.
****
In reading the history of the Acts of Apostles, we see that Jehovah’s spirit was working mightily, speedily, forming congregations, getting Christianity firmly established. (Ac 4:4; chaps 13, 14, 16-19)
In the few short years between 33 and 70 C.E., thousands of believers were gathered in many congregations from Babylon to Rome, and perhaps even farther west. (1Pe 5:13; Ro 1:1, 7; 15:24)It is worthy of note that copies of the Scriptures then were few. Usually only the well-to-do possessed scrolls or books of any sort.
In pagan lands there was no knowledge of the Bible or the God of the Bible, Jehovah. Virtually everything had to be done by word of mouth. There were no Bible commentaries, concordances, and encyclopedias readily at hand.
So the miraculous gifts of special knowledge, wisdom, speaking in tongues, and discernment of inspired utterances were vital for the congregation then. (1Co 12:4-11, 27-31) But, as the apostle Paul wrote, when those things were no longer needed, they would pass away.
A DIFFERENT SITUATION TODAY:
We do not see God performing such miracles by the hands of his Christian servants today, because all needed things are present and available to the literate population of the world.
It is not necessary for God to perform such miracles at this time to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants.Even if God were to continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not even all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings. (Joh 12:9-11)
On the other hand, scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things.—2Pe 3:1-10; Re chaps 18, 19.Who else can add?
Quote the Watchtower.
In reading the history of the Acts of Apostles, we see that Jehovah’s spirit was working mightily, speedily, forming congregations, getting Christianity firmly established. (Ac 4:4; chaps 13, 14, 16-19) In the few short years between 33 and 70 C.E., thousands of believers were gathered in many congregations from Babylon to Rome, and perhaps even farther west. (1Pe 5:13; Ro 1:1, 7; 15:24) It is worthy of note that copies of the Scriptures then were few. Usually only the well-to-do possessed scrolls or books of any sort. In pagan lands there was no knowledge of the Bible or the God of the Bible, Jehovah. Virtually everything had to be done by word of mouth. There were no Bible commentaries, concordances, and encyclopedias readily at hand. So the miraculous gifts of special knowledge, wisdom, speaking in tongues, and discernment of inspired utterances were vital for the congregation then. (1Co 12:4-11, 27-31) But, as the apostle Paul wrote, when those things were no longer needed, they would pass away.
A Different Situation Today. We do not see God performing such miracles by the hands of his Christian servants today, because all needed things are present and available to the literate population of the world, and to help those who cannot read but who will listen, there are mature Christians who have knowledge and wisdom gained by study and experience. It is not necessary for God to perform such miracles at this time to attest to Jesus Christ as God’s appointed deliverer, or to provide proof that He is backing up His servants. Even if God were to continue to give his servants the ability to perform miracles, that would not convince everyone, for not even all the eyewitnesses of Jesus’ miracles were moved to accept his teachings. (Joh 12:9-11) On the other hand, scoffers are warned by the Bible that there will yet be stupendous acts of God performed in the destruction of the present system of things.—2Pe 3:1-10; Re chaps 18, 19.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003073
Next post, quote David.
I guess I will:
Matt. 24:24: “False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [“miracles,” TEV] and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”
Matt. 7:15-23: “Be on the watch for the false prophets . . . Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works [“miracles,” JB, NE, TEV] in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”
2 Thess. 2:9, 10: “The lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work [“all kinds of miracles,” JB] and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved.”
Is miraculous healing in our day done by means of the spirit of God?
Can the ability to perform miracles come from a source other than the true God?
Moses and Aaron appeared before Pharaoh of Egypt to request that Israel be allowed to go into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to Jehovah. As evidence of divine backing, Moses directed Aaron to throw down his rod and it became a big snake. That miracle was done by God’s power. But then the magic-practicing priests of Egypt threw down their rods and these, too, became big snakes. (Ex. 7:8-12) By whose power did they perform their miracle?—Compare Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
In the 20th century some faith healing is performed in services conducted by the clergy of Christendom. Among non-Christian religions there are voodoo priests, witch doctors, medicine men, and others who also do healing; they often employ magic and divination. Some “psychic healers” say that their cures have nothing to do with religion. In all these instances, does the healing power come from the true God?
Quote from Watchtower:
Is miraculous healing in our day done by means of the spirit of God?
Can the ability to perform miracles come from a source other than the true God?
Moses and Aaron appeared before Pharaoh of Egypt to request that Israel be allowed to go into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to Jehovah. As evidence of divine backing, Moses directed Aaron to throw down his rod and it became a big snake. That miracle was done by God’s power. But then the magic-practicing priests of Egypt threw down their rods and these, too, became big snakes. (Ex. 7:8-12) By whose power did they perform their miracle?—Compare Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
In the 20th century some faith healing is performed in services conducted by the clergy of Christendom. Among non-Christian religions there are voodoo priests, witch doctors, medicine men, and others who also do healing; they often employ magic and divination. Some “psychic healers” say that their cures have nothing to do with religion. In all these instances, does the healing power come from the true God?
Matt. 24:24: “False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [“miracles,” TEV] and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.”
Matt. 7:15-23: “Be on the watch for the false prophets . . . Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works [“miracles,” JB, NE, TEV] in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989232
Quote David:
Are the sensational cures of our day performed in the same way as the miraculous cures of Jesus and his early disciples?
Rate of success: “All the crowd were seeking to touch him [Jesus], because power was going out of him and healing them all.” (Luke 6:19) “They brought the sick out even into the broad ways and laid them there upon little beds and cots, in order that, as Peter would go by, at least his shadow might fall upon some one of them. Also, the multitude from the cities around Jerusalem kept coming together, bearing sick people and those troubled with unclean spirits, and they would one and all be cured.” (Acts 5:15, 16) (In our day, do all who go to religious practitioners or to religious shrines seeking a cure get healed?)Cost of services: “Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free.” (Matt. 10:8) (Are healers today doing that—giving free, as Jesus commanded?)
Are true Christians today identified by the ability to do miraculous healing?
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (This is what Jesus said. If we really believe him, we look for love, not miraculous healing, as evidence of true Christianity.)Acts 1:8: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Just before leaving his apostles to return to heaven, Jesus told them that this, not healing, was the vital work they were to do. See also Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20.)
1 Cor. 12:28-30: “God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they?”
(So, the Bible clearly shows that not all true Christians would have the gift of healing.)From the watchtower:
Are the sensational cures of our day performed in the same way as the miraculous cures of Jesus and his early disciples?
Cost of services: “Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free.” (Matt. 10:8) (Are healers today doing that—giving free, as Jesus commanded?)
Are true Christians today identified by the ability to do miraculous healing?
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (This is what Jesus said. If we really believe him, we look for love, not miraculous healing, as evidence of true Christianity.)
Acts 1:8: “You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Just before leaving his apostles to return to heaven, Jesus told them that this, not healing, was the vital work they were to do. See also Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20.)
1 Cor. 12:28-30: “God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? Not all have gifts of healings, do they?” (So, the Bible clearly shows that not all true Christians would have the gift of healing.)
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989232
Quote David:
Here’s a question that seems to arise on this site every so often:
Does not Mark 16:17, 18 show that ability to heal the sick would be a sign identifying believers?
Mark 16:17, 18, KJ: “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
Why were such gifts as the ability to do miraculous healing given to first-century Christians?
Heb. 2:3, 4: “How shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”
(Here was convincing evidence, indeed, that the Christian congregation, which was then new, was truly of God. But once that was fully established, would it be necessary to prove it again and again?)1 Cor. 12:29, 30; 13:8, 13: “Not all are prophets, are they? . . . Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? . . . Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease . . . Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
(When they had accomplished their purpose, those miraculous gifts would cease. But priceless qualities that are the fruitage of God’s spirit would still be manifest in the lives of true Christians.)Quote from Watchtower:
Does not Mark 16:17, 18 show that ability to heal the sick would be a sign identifying believers?
Mark 16:17, 18, KJ: “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
Why were such gifts as the ability to do miraculous healing given to first-century Christians?
Heb. 2:3, 4: “How shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?” (Here was convincing evidence, indeed, that the Christian congregation, which was then new, was truly of God. But once that was fully established, would it be necessary to prove it again and again?)
1 Cor. 12:29, 30; 13:8, 13: “Not all are prophets, are they? . . . Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? . . . Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease . . . Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (When they had accomplished their purpose, those miraculous gifts would cease. But priceless qualities that are the fruitage of God’s spirit would still be manifest in the lives of true Christians.)
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989232
And the large post on page four is also a quote from the watchtower.
Hi nickhassan
I’m sorry but I have no idea what your talking about, however I base my belief on this matter, on scripture. I do feel that the beginning of this thread does a good job explaining this position..so no need to repeat it. I’m not sure you read it all. I read everything you wrote, (things can get lost in translation when typing) and quite honestly I’m really not even sure what you are saying? Do you believe men today have the power to miraculously heal people? … You said the rules do not change..so Jesus and other men (through the power of God) miraculously raised people from the dead….did those “rules” change?…surely you do not believe a man could have the power to raise people from the dead today… or do you? Yes.. God could give man that power if he so choose, but there is no need for that anymore.. the power to perform miracles was given for a reason (as was talking in tongues; but that’s a different thread). This is already well explained (using scriptures) in the beginning of this post. Again – my point, which you seem to have missed – is that this in no way means I deny the power of God. I appreciate your honest, and respectful input.
not that God himself does not have the power..just that he no longer gives that power to men today to perform miraculous healings. I could be wrong but I think he is actually talking about men today that claim to have the power to heal the sick. I actually do not believe that men today have the power to spiritually heal the sick but that does not mean that I deny God’s power. I deny man’s power to heal the sick. That’s why when I’m sick, I go to a medical doctor and not the a spiritual healer. Where do you go when you get sick? Probably to a medical doctor; but why do you go to a doctor who will just give you medicine and man made treatments. Why not go to a spiritual healer and have him heal you through the power of God. Does this mean that you also deny the power of God? Of course not.
Hi UMB5.
I agree with what Nick quoted.
In the book of Sirach [ecclesiasticus] -one of the so called Apocrypha- about chapter 36 it says as I recall.
“My son when you get sick first pray. Then call the doctor as God has given him wisdom….”
I suggest it is the way things should be done for believers.
And I agree with all the rest of Nicks posts here, and Bd’s too.
Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?
The power of God has not ceased. It doesn’t matter if it is a small miracle or a big miracle, it is God working in our lives. We can hear the small voice of God in us, we can walk with God. We can listen for God…. We can open our eyes to what God can do for us and for others around us. Why do you doubt? I could tell you many things.
Hi miia,
Yes he is a faithful servant of the watchtower.
But there is more
Much more.
Men presume that God has changed.
NO SHADOW OF TURNING.
AND HIS PROMISES STILL EXIST.
what does it matter if he’s JW or not.. Where does anything you copied pasted say that he denies the power of God? As a matter of fact…did you read any of what you copied and pasted. I don’t see anything that is off. It’s just a bunch of scriptures with facts. It seems to me that you have some vendetta against him because he belongs to a religious organization. Actually what you copied and pasted is quite interesting and very informative. Thanks for posting!
Hi UMB5,
So presumption has replaced faith.
False teaching has replaced truth.
Any powerless religion has become the norm.
Men are back in control- just as they like it
Again I ask…why do you think he denies the power of God. I agree with him regarding men not being able to perform miracles today..and I do not deny the power of God. Saying “because he’s J.W” is not a reason. So is it that ANYBODY that believe men are not able to perform the kinds of miracles that were performed in the bible (raising people from the dead, etc) deny God’s power…? or just if they are JW and do not believe it?
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