MIRACLES

[thehappyman]

seek to be spiritual rather than carnal !……hm.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
We are warned to beware false powers and false miracles.
The confrontation between Moses and the pharaoh's magicians seems to show the reality of false powers but that the power of God is greater.

[Shania]

Some here are treading on very dangerous ground. Yes, there are false prophets. Yes, there are those with black magic power to work miracles… but to say that all miracles are false is incredibly dangerous. It is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to call that which comes from the Father as from the devil.

Why do we not see miracles in the church at large? It is because most of her is dead or asleep. The most popular gospel of today is “God wants you to be happy. Get rich. Have your best life now.” Sin is not addressed. Walking in righteousness is not a requirement. A relationship is non-existent. [in this gospel]

If you are pursuing something other than Him, guess what? You will not find Him. If a church loses their first love, guess what? Their lampstand [the light, which is Him] is removed.

We are supposed to walk as Jesus did. Because He went to the Father, we are able to. Miracles are to the esteem of the Father. How can you identify a false miracle or a false prophet? Easy. If what they bring does not turn all attention to the Father, and they are drawing people after themselves and there is no fruit of repentance and coming out of sin, they are false.

Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
NIV

John 14:9-14

9 Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name , so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name , and I will do it.
NIV

This was written for a reason. This is basic christianity. This is the life of a believer.

[gollamudi]

Hi Shania,
You are right my Sis, we need miracles and signs to prove the word of God and the faith that we have in Jesus. In fact the ministry of Jesus, his disciples and Apostles was accompanied by the evidence of signs and wonders. Nowadays this is lacking every where as you rightly told. But in the last days God is going to pour out His Spirit on all men and women to fulfill all His prophecies.
Love to you
Adam

[Shania]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,22:30)

But in the last days God is going to pour out His Spirit on all men and women to fulfill all His prophcies.

Amen!

[Shania]

Quote (Shania @ June 18 2008,00:33)

Quote (gollamudi @ June 17 2008,22:30) But in the last days God is going to pour out His Spirit on all men and women to fulfill all His prophcies. Amen!

This is actually a very sobering thing, though. The more light that is exposed to you, the more accountable you become. The more darkness is exposed, the less it is tolerated. In the last days, miracle power will pour out. More people will see and experience Him. They will have to make a decision.

Heb 6:4-6

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
NIV

This is serious business

[942767]

Hi All:

If the church is not teaching the truth, will God confirm it with miracles, and signs and wonders? God will not confirm a lie.

And when the church is corrected of these false doctrines that it is teaching, not all of its members will have those spiritual gifts.  But as a church, God will confirm His Word with miracles and signs and wonders following.

Quote

1Cr 12:4  Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1Cr 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 1Cr 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 1Cr 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 1Cr 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 1Cr 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1Cr 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1Cr 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1Cr 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. 1Cr 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Cr 12:14  For the body is not one member, but many. 1Cr 12:15  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 1Cr 12:16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 1Cr 12:17  If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling? 1Cr 12:18  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 1Cr 12:19  And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? 1Cr 12:20  But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. 1Cr 12:21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 1Cr 12:22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 1Cr 12:23  And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. 1Cr 12:24  For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked: 1Cr 12:25  That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another. 1Cr 12:26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 1Cr 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 1Cr 12:28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1Cr 12:29  [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? 1Cr 12:30  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 1Cr 12:31  But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

God Bless

[gollamudi]

But as a True Church my brother, I agree with you.

[Enochs author]

Note the thread I began last weekend on MAgic vs Miracles.

[gollamudi]

Hi EA,
Welcome, thanks for your invitation.

[davidH]

over 2000 years like many things pertaining to the church have been buried in half truth and lies, mostly to suit those in authority at the time.  If you dare to take God at his word and NOT the doctrines of churchianity then you may find that the Holy Spirit will work through you .

Having said that. You must be holy for that to happen, Now this has absolutely NOTHING to do with churchianity holiness laws. Whar ever your local church says ow to be holy that’s not in the bible is not where its at.  Jesus gave 2 things to be holy.

1. have nothing against God or man

2 If you do not confess your sins or let God k now you sin, then His father WILL NOT HEAR YOU

 

before you pray for someone quickly pray forgiveness for yourself so you are clean before God. out loud. but not to make a scene about it. There is another thing. Jesus commanded us to die to self, John 12. this must be our permanent attitude then the other 2 will fall into place,

 

Father has used me in back healings, words of knowledge, deliverances, overdose healings as in hospital cases.. I am only one person. it falls on mostly deaf ears , but, it falls on the ears of those God wants it to.  Our science based western society has its god, Science and knowledge. it can explain away almost everything anyone asks of it. yes we are attacked at our faith, our very culture erodes our faith.

[Miia]

True DavidH.

I like what Shania wrote.

Some here are treading on very dangerous ground. Yes, there are false prophets. Yes, there are those with black magic power to work miracles… but to say that all miracles are false is incredibly dangerous. It is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to call that which comes from the Father as from the devil.

Why do we not see miracles in the church at large? It is because most of her is dead or asleep. The most popular gospel of today is “God wants you to be happy. Get rich. Have your best life now.” Sin is not addressed. Walking in righteousness is not a requirement. A relationship is non-existent. [in this gospel]

If you are pursuing something other than Him, guess what? You will not find Him. If a church loses their first love, guess what? Their lampstand [the light, which is Him] is removed.

We are supposed to walk as Jesus did. Because He went to the Father, we are able to. Miracles are to the esteem of the Father. How can you identify a false miracle or a false prophet? Easy. If what they bring does not turn all attention to the Father, and they are drawing people after themselves and there is no fruit of repentance and coming out of sin, they are false.

Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
NIV

John 14:9-14

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name , so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name , and I will do it.
NIV

This was written for a reason. This is basic christianity. This is the life of a believer.

[david]

Hi miia

The second post on this thread said this:

Does not Mark 16:17, 18 show that ability to heal the sick would be a sign identifying believers?
Mark 16:17, 18, KJ: “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.

[Miia]

hi David,

maybe, but there are other scriptures.

obviously you don’t believe in healing, power, gifts, dreams, visions. why?

[david]

Hi Miia,

Because since the age of 7, when I first decided I wanted to know how the magician on a tv show moved a matchstick with the power of his mind, I have been studying this stuff. That was 30 years ago. If there is magic, then it seems well hidden.
The human mind is adept at finding patterns. Evolutionary biologists of course day this is because for thousands of years if there was a Russell in the bush, the humans who saw meaning behind it (agency/a predator) he stayed in the gene pool. But the humans who thought it was the wind, were removed from the gene pool. Whatever the real reason, humans are great at finding patterns. They are so good at it that they find patterns where there are none. They see faces on the moon, they see connections with things that just aren’t connected.

Another thing is, To know what is really happening you have to step back and look at the whole. If a man walks up to you and asks you to think of a number between 1 and 1000 and you do and he gets it right is this a miracle? This would bother your brain for a long time. It can’t be a lucky guess. How could he just know what was in my mind. Well maybe he went up to 2000 strangers and did the same experiment and each time he said the number 735, and finally he got it right. The other strangers forgot about this as it was boring but the person who he got it right for, this was a miracle.
So, if a person is healed, after you pray for him to be healed, we can’t just isolate that one anecdote. We have to look at the whole. How many people would have healed from the same thing even if no one prayed. (The body is good at healing itself). Or how many other people were prayed for who didn’t get better. It’s only when we step back and look at all the numbers that this becomes clear.

Personal anecdotes are powerful. The brain relys on mental shortcuts (heuristics) which usually help us but these often lead to cognitive illusions. An anecdote isn’t evidence. If a person is at home praying for answers from God and a person knocks on your door with a bible in hand it might be a miracle. But then again, how many other people were praying across the street whose house didn’t have someone knock. And how many millions of houses did the Mormons or jw cover that day? Is this a miracle or is it just math? It would be extraordinary if thousands of people didn’t have people show up at their door after praying. That would be the miracle. But when this happens to the individual, it is powerful and they don’t think rational about it.

I’ve looked under a hundred thousand rocks. I find deception, self deception, bad thinking, etc, but I don’t find hearings, or magic. Any person who wants to claim a million dollar prize only needs to go to James randy foundation and demonstrate their magical skill under test conditions. No one has ever been able to perform under test conditions. It turns out these people are deceiving themselves or its all in their minds. It’s similar with the faith healing people. Until a person starts keeping track of all the numbers, it’s easy to deceive ourselves especially if we have a bias towards believing something already.

There is another thread that I started about asking in tongues and how the bible says these things would be done away with when no longer needed. There are many many pages of discussion in that thread.

But scriptures aside, it simply doesn’t happen. At least, not today.

[Miia]

hi David,

how could you compare God’s awesome power to magic luck or numbers? (‘learn not the ways of the heathen’)

even Muslims believe in the power of God and in miracles. it’s sad that you don’t

Paul said to keep away from those who deny the power. talking to a JW (i’m assuming you are one) from what i have learned can be a waste of time, because they are so indoctrinated, or convince me otherwise (please do!).

next time someone has a limb reattached through qualified surgeons, or is brought back from the dead, or operated on without any pain, shall we attribute that to an illusion?

[NickHassan]

Hi Mila,

Thank you for your faith.

Doubts continue to be sown among us as men prefer a powerless religion. They are in control.

 

[Miia]

hi Nick, thanks.
it is saddening, but many do come out.

[NickHassan]

Hi davidl,

Did you expect to find truth in the mouth of the whore?

If there was faith there would be miracles

[david]

Hi miia

I am not comparing gods power to magic tricks.

I’m looking at the way people think about magic tricks and it’s the same way they think about miracles TODAY.

HUMAN REASONING is bad and prone to self deception and bias and cognitive illusions and a host of things. We can filter those out by looking at the whole rather than anecdotes.

Also, many of the miracles of today are actually just done by clever magicians. Restoring hearing to the (partially) deaf. Restoring sight to the (partially) blind.
There are a lot of carnival type tricks that faith healers and psychic healers use that are quite deceptive.

Have you read the first two or three posts in this thread. I’m actually the one who started this thread. I explain in those posts why I have problems believing what you believe.

[Author]

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