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UMB5 I joined this conversation about page 10. I suggest you look back to see who used scripture and who used opinion from that page on before you single a person out. I was not and am not interested in what the Watchtower on page one has to say. I was interested in what DAVID was saying and any scriptures David might use. Was David using scripture after page ten?
I agree. Maybe you should ask Miia this question. What I take seriously is slander. I said in my previous post that It frustrates me when someone slanders any group or religion based on misconceptions and lies.
Oh come on. Show me my lies! I have shown you facts. If I am wrong about the three things I pointed out – show me I am wrong. You haven’t done that.
As I said – why are you not saying the same thing to everyone else on this forum who is also judging “any group or religion”?
You are beginning to maybe sound familiar.
Hi UMB5,
You see the verses that you offered in support of Jesus being an angel.
Neither say what you claim.
They are patched together with improbable inference and weak logic.
And yet men accept this as a dogma??
hi UMB5,
You argue against the scriptures.
Yes these are the same scriptures you quote to support your weak dogmas?
UMB5,
I made a few grammar errors in my last post. Here is one small part corrected.
Your words infer you do not believe there is one God who chooses to reveal himself to whomever he chooses.
Nevertheless is clear that the God of heaven does not tell one man one doctrine and another man a second doctrine.
Hi UMB5,
You say
“Whether you make the same scriptural connections as they do…they use these scriptures as their reasoning…not because some man told them.. SMH. Maybe it is you that should seek confirmation of their ideas before making presumptuous statements.”
Yes they USE THE SCRIPTURES AS THE REASONING
We should not USE scripture to JUSTIFY our reasonings.
Let scripture teach and support itself to find the truth.
What you have offered is obscene MISUSE of the sacred words.
Jesus never used healing as a means of attracting followers or large audiences. On the contrary, he performed a number of healings out of public view. Many times he told those whom he cured to reveal the miracle to no one.—Luke 5:13, 14.
Jesus never charged money for his miracles. (Matthew 10:8) He also had an unfailing record of success. All sick ones who came to him were completely cured, and the healing did not depend on the individual’s faith. (Luke 6:19; John 5:5-9, 13) Why, Jesus even raised the dead!—Luke 7:11-17; 8:40-56; John 11:38-44.
Though he did perform those miracles, the focus of Jesus’ ministry was not on gathering converts by means of emotional sessions of miracle working. Instead, his primary work was to declare the good news of God’s Kingdom. Jesus organized his followers to become disciple makers, who would teach others about the hope of attaining perfect health under God’s Kingdom.—Matthew 28:19, 20.
Ok, so there are some points in that.
My question to you is, ‘what if an individual person moved today by the spirit of God prayed for another without them knowing and God instantly healed them. Or what if a man had a vision of heaven. Or what if a man prayed to God for his own healing and he was miraculously healed. What if in all three examples, they only told a few close spiritual friends. What then. Who would you attribute that power to. God? If so good. If not, then isn’t that denying God’s power.
Hi UMB5,
Please can you quote where I said men have the power to heal.
If not please withdraw this lie.
Dear Miia,
Thanks for these quotes. I had the JW’s at my door one day and I asked them if they were Christians and they said no we are Jehovah witnesses.Then a week later another bunch came to my door and I asked them the same thing and they said yes and quoted the book of Acts saying “they were first called Christians in Antioch” And I told them well I had another bunch of you here last week saying they weren’t Christians and they were dumbfounded and said those others were not right. I told them to go back to Kingdom Hall and figure it out.
Hi Andrew. They used to talk to me and come in and we studied for a while, about 6 months twice around 12 years ago. They were nice but I sensed something not right with their books. Still speak to them nicely when they come to the door (different house, different people). Just the last month or so I’ve seen differently after learning more. Haven’t seen the local ones here.
Miia
I didn’t call “all others on this thread mentally ill.” I pointed out some of the cognitive distortions associated with mental illness that I have been noticing lately.
however, you say you don’t like those who attack a group of people when the very group that you here are defending claim that all other people (i.e., non Jehovah Witnesses) are not in truth and will be utterly destroyed (see quotes below). i do not usually attack other beliefs. i was merely trying to help David. David replied to an old post of mine (to someone else) and i replied back. you believe i am misinformed – i have now shown you i was not.
I do not understand and perhaps UMB also does not understand how you are trying to help David here. If David is wrong about miracles then we should look at scriptural evidence and any other evidence that exists concerning miracles.
I have never said you will be destroyed miia. And I’m not who you think I am. Nick probably believes closer to what you think I do, than I do. And if you are basing any sort of thinking on anything Nick has ever said, that is a horrible idea if you have any respect for reality.UMB5, I was getting to the root of the problem – which is the JW teachings.
I want you to imagine for a second that I a a magician, who spent the last 30 years looking for actual genuine miracles. Along the way I studied how people fake miracles of every sort and how easily people are deceived and how they want to deceive themselves. We will call this my 30 year long personal search for genuine miracles.
I want you to imagine that I am also interested in logic and evidence and how people think and why they believe what they do. We will call this my cognitive studies.
I want you to imagine that, yes, I read everything I could find on miracles 10 years ago and put it in a large file and then 7 years ago posted some of that to this thread. We will call this scriptural reasoning.
So, what is the root of the problem?
–30 years of personal research for genuine miracles.
–my cognitive studies into how people think (badly)
–the scriptural reasoning I first quoted.If you think I was biased by the third one, you are simply wrong. I began this search when I was 7. If there are miracles today, they are very well hidden.
I do see why UMB has the impression that you just want to attack jw teaching. I understand that impulse. There are things they can rightly be attacked for. But here, in this thread, it’s just me. If you want to prove them wrong about miracles, perhaps this would be the place to do that. But if you just want to randomly attack them, there are about 25 other threads that have been created for that sole purpose.
hi David,
You should not feel paranoid when the JW’s theology is found to be weak and foolish.
It was your choice to join them but you have never lost your own insight have you?
So you went to a anti-JW website to accurately educate yourself on them. Need I say more?.. probably.. Again…SCRIPTURES.. Not anti-JW websites. What are their teachings today…the day you slander them.. I gave you their current teaching of 1914, not one from 104 years ago..104 YEARS AGO???..Every religion has changed it’s beliefs in one way or another since 104 years ago… It seems this website has been the fuel for your persecution of them .. A website made specifically to be Anti-JW is probably not the best source to use in order to be completely informed about JW. They of course would not give both sides and therefore you would not gain accurate knowledge.. For instance they would not tell you about the following quotes from the J.W:
“We are not for a moment denying that the publications – in particular the earlier ones – have at times published information that was speculative in nature and turned out to be mistaken. But the fact is that, for each of the dates commonly touted by critics as ‘false prophecies’ (1874, 1914, 1925, 1975), Watch Tower publications had published cautionary statements to the effect that it was by no means certain what would happen. Consider, for example, the following statements, which emphasize that the basis for the conclusions was Bible study not some message from God: source: http://jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html
Okay. I was mistaken. UMB5 is likely studying with witnesses, is the child of a witness, or possibly is a witness. But none of this here matters for the sake of this actual discussion on miracles. (if someone here wants to correct UMB perhaps another thread should be started)
I do not understand and perhaps UMB also does not understand how you are trying to help David here. If David is wrong about miracles then we should look at scriptural evidence and any other evidence that exists concerning miracles.
I have never said you will be destroyed miia. And I’m not who you think I am.Hi David that sounds good. Where were we.
I want you to imagine for a second that I a a magician, who spent the last 30 years looking for actual genuine miracles. Along the way I studied how people fake miracles of every sort and how easily people are deceived and how they want to deceive themselves. We will call this my 30 year long personal search for genuine miracles.
I want you to imagine that I am also interested in logic and evidence and how people think and why they believe what they do. We will call this my cognitive studies.
I want you to imagine that, yes, I read everything I could find on miracles 10 years ago and put it in a large file and then 7 years ago posted some of that to this thread. We will call this scriptural reasoning.
So, what is the root of the problem?
–30 years of personal research for genuine miracles.
–my cognitive studies into how people think (badly)
–the scriptural reasoning I first quoted.If you think I was biased by the third one, you are simply wrong. I began this search when I was 7. If there are miracles today, they are very well hidden.
Ok, I will try to imagine that from your point of view, and reply when I have some time.
Hi Miia,
The Spirit of love in the Master could not look at the misery around and do nothing.
And the Spirit and the same gifts were given to his brothers and all his children.
Hi,
I love the little miracles that happen every day.
Our Father works through all the circumstances of life to smooth the path.
Everything does work together for good to them who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
UMB5, I was getting to the root of the problem – which is the JW teachings.
I want you to imagine for a second that I a a magician, who spent the last 30 years looking for actual genuine miracles. Along the way I studied how people fake miracles of every sort and how easily people are deceived and how they want to deceive themselves. We will call this my 30 year long personal search for genuine miracles.
I want you to imagine that I am also interested in logic and evidence and how people think and why they believe what they do. We will call this my cognitive studies.
Hi David,
On the one hand you talk about miracles and on the other magic, not sure if you view these as the same ???
But here is an interesting series on magic you might want to see…
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Enjoy
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