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Hi UMB5,
I see no mention of the JWs recently here.
Nick, You are either delusional or simply a liar. It’s like you have had some break with reality. Seriously, get help. As much as we argue on here, I would like to see you get professional help.
So if someone claims a healing or miracle from God would the JW’s say it was from the devil or what?
Andrew, yes. I’m pretty sure they would say Satan is misleading people. Angel of light. All that.
To be clear, I would not say this. I’ve spent 30 years studying miracle like events. It’s like a hobby of mine. I know how astoundingly easy it is for simple minded people who want to believe something to let themselves be deceived.
David –
I’m just reading everyone comments, and unfortunately I do not think they are willing to actually read the post. There really not getting it. They aren’t even making any real rebuttals on the actual post itself. I don’t care where the information came from…if it makes sense..it makes sense..if it’s backed up with scripture than what does it matter. Why don’t they come with some scriptural support; instead of spewing out attacks and personal opinions. How come every time you post using scriptures, and reasoning….they just come back with attacks on the J.W’s.. instead of scriptural evidence. I notice that every time someone has some knowledge of the scriptures and Miia feels like she’s backed into a corner and can’t keep up…she diverts and starts attacking J.W’s even if the person isn’t a J.W. Fine…if your a JW…and JW’s are wrong…then come with some knowledge…scriptural knowledge…not personal attacks, and opinions. All that matters is scriptures and truth…not religion whether you a J.W or a Catholic, Baptist…whatever… stop stalking the J.W’s and offer some knowledge! Its’ weird.
UMB
Yes. It is weird.
I study mental disorders a bit. Labelling/mislabelling is one of the cognitive distortions associated with mental illness. The need to label everything, also to see everything in black and white terms, all or nothing thinking, these are things associated with mental illness. These are both subtypes of the generalization error that those with mental illness are prone to make. Everything is either good or bad, and I have to label it such.
Hi David,
You seem to claim that by your personal studies you cannot be wrong and all others suffer from mental illness of some kind or another.
Is that the old catholic superiority and infallibility in another guise?
David,
UMB5 told me off because i had not addressed your opening posts directly. i pointed out to UMB5 that your opening posts were not your work but watchtower material copy and pasted. you had not stated you were quoting other material. (what i did not point out is that i can not sit at the computer long enough to address scripturally so many points in your watchtower material). then UMB5 claimed it seemed i had some vendetta against you because you may belong to a religious organization. until UMB5 interrupted i was happily but slowly pointing you into the direction of truth. i asked UMB5 two questions which she/ he did not answer. you asked me a related question (Christianity to Islam). i answered that. then UMB5 is back in mocking something or other, then you, David are calling all others in this thread mentally ill. i understand why you do that, but that’s something else.if we could just go back for a moment, David.
i asked if you had read Matthew 12.22.
Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
what is your understanding of that scripture?
Hi David,
You seem to claim that by your personal studies you cannot be wrong and all others suffer from mental illness of some kind or another.Nick, it is a common reaction, don’t take it personally (:
1914 was their founders unfulfilled prophecy on the return of Christ. They then said he did not return visibly or something like that if I remember correctly.
I’m not one to slander people because the bible makes it very clear that there is no place on the earth for a slanderer, so I went to their website (the same one you went to) to get it from the horses mouth and this is what they believe about 1914 –
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/1914-significant-year-bible-prophecy/
Basically that is when Jesus took his heavenly throne. There is no unfulfilled prophecy. If you take the time to read the link (not saying you have to believe it), you will see that this is not a prophecy…it is a belief they have and is actually based on scriptures, not on founders prophecy . If your going to lead a Saul like witch hunt against any group of people; ..it may be wise to educate yourself on that group. Maybe that’s why you weren’t successful in turning your friend against them..you came with no real knowledge. BTW I am not defending the watchtower doctrine.. I’m defending scriptures.. and I get frustrated when I see someone attacking a group of people whether it be Muslims, Catholics, or scientologist using slanderous “or something like that” statements. That’s just me. Educate yourself so that your words are not slanderous…I too, like you have studied with them.. and I have friends who are J.W’s and I’m sorry but as far as I know a lot of what you are saying is not true. Just imagine…if your statement about them and 1914 is not true…imagine how many other misconceptions you may have about them. I would really look up Psalms 140:11. BTW I was not trying to “tell you off”..in my previous post, or in this one and I apologize if it came across that way. Let’s please just stick to the bible…the scriptures…and if we are defending or refuting someone’s belief.. lets do it based on scriptures, not personal beliefs, attacks, or assumptions. I’m sure you will agree that using scriptures will be more effective.
(what i did not point out is that i can not sit at the computer long enough to address scripturally so many points in your watchtower material).
Then how do you know if it’s true or not. Maybe it’s not…maybe it is…but because you have not research the points scripturally, (and from what you copied and pasted) they HAVE researched their material scripturally; you do not know if its true or not…..yet you have time to sit at the computer and talk negatively about them… If you feel that strongly about them; research what they are saying and prove it wrong with scriptures if you can..otherwise anything you say is just your personal feelings.
Hi UMB5,
Their research is weak and faulty.
They base their teachings on one verse at times where scripture says that witnesses are required to establish truth.
What is the point of the JW version of God? If he is just a law making yet somehow impotent being who doesn’t heal or answer prayer? let me guess,he’s just whatever the popes of Brooklyn decide he is.
UMB5,
There is no unfulfilled prophecy.
as far as I know a lot of what you are saying is not true. Just imagine…if your statement about them and 1914 is not true…imagine how many other misconceptions you may have about them. I would really look up Psalms 140:11
not according to their own writings.
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-predictions.php
according to the quotes below, 1914 was the date when Babylon (all world governments religions christendom and kingdoms of this world) would have been fully destroyed.
just a few quotes from the Watchtower and the Jehovah Witness publication Studies in the Scriptures:
“October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon, “as a great millstone cast into the sea,” utterly destroyed as a system.” Watch Tower 1911 Jun 15 p.190
“A.D. 33, to A.D. 70 was 36 ½ years; and so from A.D. 1878 to the end of A.D. 1914 is 36 ½ years. And, with the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown in prophecy.” Studies In the Scriptures – Thy Kingdom Come (1891) p.153
“True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved. In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914. Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the “battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God’s Word.” Studies In the Scriptures Series II – The Time Is At Hand (1889) pp.99, 101
and I get frustrated when I see someone attacking a group of people whether it be Muslims, Catholics, or scientologist using slanderous “or something like that” statements.
fair enough. however, you say you don’t like those who attack a group of people when the very group that you here are defending claim that all other people (i.e., non Jehovah Witnesses) are not in truth and will be utterly destroyed (see quotes below). i do not usually attack other beliefs. i was merely trying to help David. David replied to an old post of mine (to someone else) and i replied back. you believe i am misinformed – i have now shown you i was not.
BTW I was not trying to “tell you off”..in my previous post, or in this one and I apologize if it came across that way. Let’s please just stick to the bible…the scriptures…and if we are defending or refuting someone’s belief.. lets do it based on scriptures, not personal beliefs, attacks, or assumptions. I’m sure you will agree that using scriptures will be more effective.
that is true but can that apply to David as well. could David please just stick to scriptures rather than personal beliefs assumptions or attacks. i’m not talking about the opening posts i’m talking about since me and David starting dialoguing in this thread. thank you David.
Then how do you know if it’s true or not. Maybe it’s not…maybe it is…but because you have not research the points scripturally, (and from what you copied and pasted) they HAVE researched their material scripturally; you do not know if its true or not…..yet you have time to sit at the computer and talk negatively about them… If you feel that strongly about them; research what they are saying and prove it wrong with scriptures if you can..otherwise anything you say is just your personal feelings.
perhaps when i can i will. but why over analyze such a long writing that is clearly wrong?
=====
that all non Jehovah Witnesses will be destroyed.
http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/salvation-only-for-jehovahs-witnesses.php (there is a video in that link)“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
“But Jehovah’s servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things.” Watchtower 2007 Dec 15 p.14
“But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy.” Watchtower 1993 Sep 15 p.22
“But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave”, made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.” Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.27
“Is it presumptuous of Jehovah’s Witnesses to point out that they alone have God’s backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God’s backing in spite of the Egyptians’ belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God’s backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists.” Watchtower 2001 Jun 1 p.16
“As for humans upon earth, on the side of Jehovah will be all those fully dedicated to him and who are faithfully following Jesus Christ; compared with earth’s billions these are indeed few…. On Satan’s side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions…. Armageddon will be the worst thing ever to hit this earth in the history of man.” Watchtower 1958 Oct 15 pp.614-615
“Let us recognize that Christendom is doomed, along with all the rest of Babylon the Great. She has refused to repent of her religiously immoral or adulterous course of action, her friendship with this world. (Jas. 4:4) She is like the rest of the ungodly world, even after Jehovah’s Christian witnesses have plainly declared God’s impending judgment to her.” Watchtower 1972 Dec 15 p.753
so, as you can see, if a group makes such claims and knocks on our doors and posts literature on the net expecting us to go over it, do you expect us to always say nothing?
Dear Miia,
Thanks for these quotes. I had the JW’s at my door one day and I asked them if they were Christians and they said no we are Jehovah witnesses.Then a week later another bunch came to my door and I asked them the same thing and they said yes and quoted the book of Acts saying “they were first called Christians in Antioch” And I told them well I had another bunch of you here last week saying they weren’t Christians and they were dumbfounded and said those others were not right. I told them to go back to Kingdom Hall and figure it out.
So you went to a anti-JW website to accurately educate yourself on them. Need I say more?.. probably.. Again…SCRIPTURES.. Not anti-JW websites. What are their teachings today…the day you slander them.. I gave you their current teaching of 1914, not one from 104 years ago..104 YEARS AGO???..Every religion has changed it’s beliefs in one way or another since 104 years ago… It seems this website has been the fuel for your persecution of them .. A website made specifically to be Anti-JW is probably not the best source to use in order to be completely informed about JW. They of course would not give both sides and therefore you would not gain accurate knowledge.. For instance they would not tell you about the following quotes from the J.W:
“We are not for a moment denying that the publications – in particular the earlier ones – have at times published information that was speculative in nature and turned out to be mistaken. But the fact is that, for each of the dates commonly touted by critics as ‘false prophecies’ (1874, 1914, 1925, 1975), Watch Tower publications had published cautionary statements to the effect that it was by no means certain what would happen. Consider, for example, the following statements, which emphasize that the basis for the conclusions was Bible study not some message from God: source: http://jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html
or
“We have not the gift of prophecy” Zion Watchtower July 1883
or
“But does the Watchtower Society claim to be an prophet, receiving information directly (and therefore perfectly) from God?
The Watchtower has said:
“We have not the gift of prophecy.” – January 1883, page 425.
“Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” – December 15, 1896, page 306.
“[the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit] does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine, The Watchtower, are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” – May 15, 1947, page 157.
“The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” – August 15, 1950, page 263.
“The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)” – February 15, 1981, page 19.”
It just takes a little sincere unbiased research. Let go of the hate in your heart.
Okay..now back on topic? This thread is about miracles and the original post has many SCRIPTURAL backing for its content. Did you have any scriptural backing for your view of miracles, and statements such as “JW deny the power of God”. I think they deny the power of man to perform miracles. Not the power of God to perform miracles according to what YOU copied and pasted. I found this on their website, and whether you agree or not, it is a sound basis for their beliefs, and does not equate to denying the power of God.
“What, though, about today? Faith healers in Christendom as well as in some non-Christian religions claim to perform miraculous healings. Yet, Jesus himself sternly warned against individuals who would claim to have “performed many miracles” in his name. He would say to them: “I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:22, 23, International Standard Version) So, are the supposed miracles of modern-day faith healers really an indication of God’s approval or blessing?Consider what the bible says about the healings performed by Jesus. By comparing that Scriptural record with the methods of faith healers today, we can readily determine whether modern-day faith healing is from God.
Jesus never used healing as a means of attracting followers or large audiences. On the contrary, he performed a number of healings out of public view. Many times he told those whom he cured to reveal the miracle to no one.—Luke 5:13, 14.
Jesus never charged money for his miracles. (Matthew 10:8) He also had an unfailing record of success. All sick ones who came to him were completely cured, and the healing did not depend on the individual’s faith. (Luke 6:19; John 5:5-9, 13) Why, Jesus even raised the dead!—Luke 7:11-17; 8:40-56; John 11:38-44.
Though he did perform those miracles, the focus of Jesus’ ministry was not on gathering converts by means of emotional sessions of miracle working. Instead, his primary work was to declare the good news of God’s Kingdom. Jesus organized his followers to become disciple makers, who would teach others about the hope of attaining perfect health under God’s Kingdom.—Matthew 28:19, 20.
NOTICE HOW EACH THOUGHT HAS SEVERAL SUPPORTING SCRIPTURE. This way you know it comes from the bible. Would you please share your reasoning as to why you believe man has the power to miraculously heal using scriptural support?
Hi UMBS,
The JW religion is irrelevant in the heavenly view so why do you take it so seriously?
A group of people following a man and his warped ideas has no relationship to the Body of Christ.
It is just another one of the many varieties of false human religion
The JW religion is irrelevant in the heavenly view so why do you take it so seriously?
I agree. Maybe you should ask Miia this question. What I take seriously is slander. I said in my previous post that It frustrates me when someone slanders any group or religion based on misconceptions and lies.
A group of people following a man has not relationship to the Body of Christ.
I believe everything that is quoted from their teachings above have scriptures so it seems to me they follow the bible. But I forgot… you believe any organized religion is actually following man…all religion is the whore… and part of Babylon….etc… I got it..
Hi UMB5,
Following the bible when they say Jesus is an archangel??
Scripture is very malleable for those who do not compare verse with verse and do not seek confirmation of their ideas.
Hi UMB5
Heb2.3
“..How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord , it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various MIRACLES and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will”
2Tim 3.5
“..holding to a form of godliness, although they have DENIED IT’S POWER”
The religion of men is powerless so it is not surprising that they deny the power of God.
Following the bible when they say Jesus is an archangel??
“But For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.- 1st Thessalonians 4:16
you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” -Gal. 4:14
Scripture is very malleable for those who do not compare verse with verse and do not seek confirmation of their ideas.
Oh you mean like this?
“And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years..” – Revelations 20:1-2
and then compare that to Matthew 8:29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?” Jesus is described as the one who will lock them up in the abyss at the appointed time.
At Gen 3:15, Jesus is said to be the one will crush Satan’s head, Then at Rev:12:7-9 it says:
Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.Whether you make the same scriptural connections as they do…they use these scriptures as their reasoning…not because some man told them.. SMH. Maybe it is you that should seek confirmation of their ideas before making presumptuous statements.
Heb2.3
“..How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord , it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various MIRACLES and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will”
2Tim 3.5
“..holding to a form of godliness, although they have DENIED IT’S POWER”
Again…this shows God having the power to heal. Not man. Your so confused..You speak against the religion of Man..and following the teachings of man..blah blah..but then defend that man has the power to heal.
The religion of men is powerless so it is not surprising that they deny the power of God.
Someone’s religion is also called their faith…If you believe the faith of man is powerless, than it is you that denies the power of God. And if the religion of men is powerless, than why do you take it so seriously.
Umb5,
Whether you make the same scriptural connections as they do…they use these scriptures as their reasoning…not because some man told them.. SMH. Maybe it is you that should seek confirmation of their ideas before making presumptuous statements.
They make the connections because of what their ears want to hear. If the love the light then the connections will lead them to the light but if they love darkness then their connections will keep them from coming out into the light.
You words infer you do not believe there is one God who chooses to reveal himself to those he does. It is clear that the God of heaven does not tell one man one doctrine and another man a second doctrine.
Jesus did not come to bring but instead he brought a sword and this there are multiple doctrines all claiming to be the truth even though there is but one truth.
As you say they made a connection but instead of resolving a mystery it created one for it is written in Scripture that there is one man between God and humanity and that human is Jesus Christ. After there “connection” they have to explain how that man became an angel and because they also believe he existing before his origins they have to explain how that angel became a human being.
At no time are we told that Paul or any other of those that preached the gospel taught the Jesus was an angel. The Jews believe the Messiah is a human being so he would of had done that. If that was a disagreement it would have made it into Scripture.
UMB5,
You still haven’t answered the question. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness, or do you plan on being one? I ask because it is YOU who jumped into a conversation, singling ME out and attacking me for no reason. Why did you not attack those here who criticize Trinity, or Catholicism, or Islam, or Christianity? Why did you single out me while high fiving everyone else it seems? What is your problem?
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