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WJ said:
Quote You need to understand the principle that God can declare something to be now and yet it is to come to pass. I have given you some examples of this and there are many more.
For instance the one that says all things are not yet under his feet.
When Jesus was given all authority and power, all things were put under his feet, yet the Apostle says we do not yet see this experiencially.
When Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, judicially it was finished. Yet experiencially all things were not finished.
Greetings again WJ,
I was the first to say that the word “now” has some flexibility to it. So I have showed that I “understand”. I was the first to say that the reference was future but near FUTURE. I do not accept the “judicial” explanation. This is the futurists way of explaining away the time indicators in scripture. God has not permitted us to do this. Revelation 22:10 says this,
Quote “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near“ We are not permitted to postpone the fulfillment of prophecies. God warned against this,
Quote What is the proverb that you people have about the land of Israel, which says, that it is prolonged, and every vision fails? Tell them therefore. 'Thus says the Lord God: “I will lay this proverb to rest, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel.” But say to them, “The days are at hand, and the fulfillment of every vision….For I am the Lord, I speak, and the word I speak will come to pass; it will not be postponed; for in your days, O rebellious house, I will say the word and perform it”, says the Lord God (Ezekiel 12:21-25) Please not two concepts from this passage,
1. The expression “at hand” means that fulfillment was to occur in “your” days (Ezekiel's contemporaries).
2. To postpone fulfillment is called a “proverb” by God.
This is how I view the futurist's “judicial” explanation. It is a device used by them to postpone the fulfillment of things which were clearly said to be “at hand” from the vantage point of those who originally received the word. God told Ezekiel to tell his contemporaries that “at hand” means in “your days”. Yet the futurists tell us that we are still awaiting for much of Ezekiel's prophecies to be fulfilled.
So we know that “at hand” refers to the days of those who received the word. Now let's look again,
1Peter 4:7, “The end of all things is at hand“
James 5:7-8, “For the coming of the Lord is at hand“
Note that Peter said that the end of all things was “at hand” and James said that the coming of the Lord was “at hand”. According to God “at hand” means “in YOUR days” (the days of those who originally received the word). God said that postponement is a proverb (i.e., false).
WJ said:
Quote When Jesus says he comes quickly, then to him it is quickly. It was “quickly” to John also. He said “amen”.
WJ said:
Quote A thousand years can be like a day to the Lord. A thousand years is like a day to the Lord but not to us.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 21 2009,10:36)
WJ said:Quote I am sorry, I do not see anything in their statements claiming Preterism. Can you show me where they believed everything was fulfilled in 70AD including satan being thrown into the lake of fire and the 1000 year millinium is past? Hi WJ,
Please look up the titles from the fathers. Preteristarchive is trustworthy on the history of Preterism in the Church. I am getting the impression that you are not really interested enough to do your own homework. If my impression is mistaken then I apologize in advance. Go back to the site and click on “Eusebius”. He said,Quote “But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as THE WORD or GOD, foretel should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted. And, it is right we should wonder at the fulfilment of this prediction, since at no time did this place undergo such an entire desolation as this was. He pointed out moreover, the cause of their desolation when He said, “If thou hadst known, even in this day, the things of thy peace:” intimating too His own coming, which should be for the peace of the whole world. But, when ye shall see it reduced by armies, know ye that which comes upon it, to be a final and full desolation and destruction. He designates the desolation of Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Temple, and the laying aside of those services which were, according to the law of Moses, formerly performed within it. The manner moreover of the captivity, points out the war. of which He spoke; “For (said He) there shall be (great) tribulation upon the land, and great wrath upon this people : and they shall fall by the edge of the sword.” We can learn too, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, how these things took place in their localities, and how those, which had been foretold by our Saviour, were, in fact, fulfilled. On this account He said, “Let those who are in its borders not enter into it, since these are the days of vengeance, that all may be fulfilled which has been written.” Any one therefore, who desires it, may learn the results of these things from the writings of Josephus. Please not those phrases that I put in bold.
Btw, not all Preterists agree that all was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. I am a consistent Preterist. Jesus gave the destruction of Jerusalem as the sign of His coming. Revelation puts the casting out of satan at the time of His coming. Therefore, the destruction of Jerusalem was also was an indication to God's people that satan had been judged and cast out.
We live in the satan free new covenant age.
thinker
Hi Thinker
No I have read it and done my own research.
Quote (thethinker @ May 21 2009,10:36)
He pointed out moreover, the cause of their desolation when He said, “If thou hadst known, even in this day, the things of thy peace:” intimating too His own coming, which should be for the peace of the whole world.So you think this says Jesus has come? Was there peace in the whole world? Is there peace in the whole world now?
Have the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our God and of his Christ? If so then why all the wars?
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 11:15
Quote (thethinker @ May 21 2009,10:36) On this account He said, “Let those who are in its borders not enter into it, since these are the days of vengeance, that all may be fulfilled which has been written.” Any one therefore, who desires it, may learn the results of these things from the writings of Josephus. So has “ALL” things written been fulfiilled?
Or is that “ALL” things for that time were fulfilled.
I still cannot see how this shows they are preterist.
Thinker, I am surprised that you buy into this theology being that it is fulll of inference IMO.
Blessings WJ
Hi Thinker
Before I address your post can you address this one?
Hi Thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,14:09) WJ said: Quote Besides I believe the “evil one” he speaks of is the “devil” which he also mentions twice in the Epistle. Do you believe that Jesus destroyed the works of the devil?
Quote For this reason the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) It’s obvious that John wasn’t saying by that statement that satan was destroyed.
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 1 John 3:8
John was saying for this purpose he came yet it hadn’t happened yet. There is nothing in this scripture that says he has destroyed the devil and thrown him into the lake of fire. In fact the verse says he that sins is of the devil and people are still sinning today.
If satan is no more then there would be no more death and sin for Paul said we do not yet see all things put under him.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:24-26
This scripture says that the end comes when everything is put under Jesus feet.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
It says that Jesus will be subdued to the Father when all things are put under him. Has Jesus delivered up the Kingdom to the Father yet? If not then all enemies are not under him yet.
WJ
Also I might add that if Jesus has come and the millinial riegn has happened then all things would be under him and the last enemy would be destroyed which is death.
Hi Thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 21 2009,11:23) This is how I view the futurist's “judicial” explanation. It is a device used by them to postpone the fulfillment of things which were clearly said to be “at hand” from the vantage point of those who originally received the word. God told Ezekiel to tell his contemporaries that “at hand” means in “your days”. Yet the futurists tell us that we are still awaiting for much of Exekiel's prophecies to be fulfilled. So we know that “at hand” refers to the days of those who received the word. Now let's look again,
1Peter 4:7, “The end of all things is at hand“
James 5:7-8, “For the coming of the Lord is at hand“
Note that Peter said that the end of all things was “at hand” and James said that the coming of the Lord was “at hand”. According to God “at hand” means “in YOUR days” (the days of those who originally received the word). God said that postponement is a proverb (i.e., false).
I am glad you brought up Peter. This is what Peter believed the “END” would be…
But “the day of the Lord will come like a thief. “THE HEAVENS WILL DISAPPEAR WITH A ROAR; THE ELEMENTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY FIRE, AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL BE LAID BARE. SINCE EVERYTHING WILL BE DESTROYED IN THIS WAY, WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. “THAT DAY WILL BRING ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS BY FIRE, AND THE ELEMENTS WILL MELT IN THE HEAT. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to A New Heaven And A New Earth, the home of righteousness. 2 Peter 3:10-13
Has the end of all things happened yet? Has the Lord returned yet? Has the earth and heavens melted with fervent heat yet?
Please explain.
WJ
WJ said:
Quote So you think this says Jesus has come? Was there peace in the whole world? Is there peace in the whole world now? Where does the Bible say that there will be worldwide peace? Chapter and verse please.
WJ said:
Quote Have the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our God and of his Christ? If so then why all the wars? There is no war in the kingdom of God. All evil was purged from God's kingdom (Matt. 13). War exists outside God's kingdom.
WJ said:
Quote So has “ALL” things written been fulfiilled? Or is that “ALL” things for that time were fulfilled.
All things that were written were for that time. Our time is NOT prophesied in Scripture. Preterism is the view that ALL prophecy has been fulfilled.
WJ said:
Quote Thinker, I am surprised that you buy into this theology being that it is fulll of inference Jesus said,
Quote Truly I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place (Luke 21:32) Jesus said that “this generation” will not pass. He was speaking of His own generation. And the expression “all things” included His coming (vss. 25-28). Preterist conclusions are valid.
thinker
WJ said:
Quote It’s obvious that John wasn’t saying by that statement that satan was destroyed. WJ,
Your statement above is contradictory. You said that the devil's works were destroyed but not the devil himself. You can't have the one without the other. Please explain how the devil's works can be destroyed without the devil himself being destroyed.WJ said:
Quote He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 1 John 3:8 He who loves Christ is of Abraham and he who does not love Christ is of the devil (John 8). Yet Abraham has been dead for hundreds of years. Your view implies that Christ failed. He was manifested to destroy the works of the devil which He did.
WJ said:
Quote There is nothing in this scripture that says he has destroyed the devil and thrown him into the lake of fire. But John 12:31 said it was to happen soon (“NOW will the prince of this world be cast out”).
WJ said:
Quote If satan is no more then there would be no more death and sin for Paul said we do not yet see all things put under him. There is no more death. God's people go straight to heaven now. Before Christ returned God's people slept in hades. But they sleep in hades no more because hades was also cast into the lake of fire in AD70.There is no death in the new covenant age. Paul did NOT say that we today have not seen all things put under Him. The “we” was his original audience. It was THEM who did not see it. But we see it. We go straight to heaven now without sleeping.
Quote He that believes in me shall NEVER die WJ said:
Quote The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:24-26 The last enemy has been destroyed. The last ememy is death and hades (1 Corinthians 15:55),
Quote O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?If you are correct that death has not yet been destroyed then hades still exists. And if hades still exists then we will not go straight to heaven. We will sleep in hades until Christ's second coming. This is not possible. In the new covenant age the saints of God go straight to heaven to their new immortal bodies (2 Cor. 4:15-5:5).
The earthly body still dies and disintegrates. But the child of God does not die.
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Has the end of all things happened yet? Has the Lord returned yet? Has the earth and heavens melted with fervent heat yet? Greetings WJ,
The end of “all things” was a reference to the end of the things of the old covenant, i.e., the things of the Mosaic economy. The Great Baptist C.H. Spurgeon preached this,Quote “Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacles, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow is gone: and we do not remember it.” (Charles Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354). The old things that “dissolved” were the things of the Mosaic dispensation. These were the old heavens and earth to Jewish believers. The new heavens and earth are the things of the new covenant and are altogether spiritual. We live in the new heaven and earth NOW.
The great Puritan John Owen taught this also.
Have you noticed that Rev. 22:17 gives the gospel invitation to all,
Quote Whosoever will may come and take the water of life freely The river of the water of life flows in the new earth. And men are invited to come and drink and be saved. So salvation is occurring in the new earth.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 22 2009,15:53) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Has the end of all things happened yet? Has the Lord returned yet? Has the earth and heavens melted with fervent heat yet? Greetings WJ,
The end of “all things” was a reference to the end of the things of the old covenant, i.e., the things of the Mosaic economy. The Great Baptist C.H. Spurgeon preached this,Quote “Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt offering, or the red heifer, or any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacles, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow is gone: and we do not remember it.” (Charles Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354). The old things that “dissolved” were the things of the Mosaic dispensation. These were the old heavens and earth to Jewish believers. The new heavens and earth are the things of the new covenant and are altogether spiritual. We live in the new heaven and earth NOW.
The great Puritan John Owen taught this also.
Have you noticed that Rev. 22:17 gives the gospel invitation to all,
Quote Whosoever will may come and take the water of life freely The river of the water of life flows in the new earth. And men are invited to come and drink and be saved. So salvation is occurring in the new earth.
thinker
Hi ThinkerSorry, that is a bunch of crap, and a total apologetic distortion and corruption of the truth. IMO.
Peters words again…
But “the day of the Lord will come like a thief. “THE HEAVENS WILL DISAPPEAR WITH A ROAR; THE ELEMENTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY FIRE, AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL BE LAID BARE. SINCE EVERYTHING WILL BE DESTROYED IN THIS WAY, WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. “THAT DAY WILL BRING ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS BY FIRE, AND THE ELEMENTS WILL MELT IN THE HEAT. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to A New Heaven And A New Earth, the home of righteousness. 2 Peter 3:10-13
Look up the Greek words for “Earth”, “heavens”, “destruction”, “fire”, and “fervent heat” to start with and then try and allegorize them away.
There is nothing there to suggest Peter is talking about the Old covenant melting with fervent heat. That is pure inference and corruption of the text.
The context is talking about a new heaven and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2 Peter 3:13
This is why I could not be a Preterist, because it takes away the “blessed hope” and makes the Word of God of non effect IMO.
Thinker I need to do more study on the subject and will give you the benefit of the doubt on the rest, but I totally reject what you just did to Peter’s clear prophetic words.
Blessings WJ
Thinker ……..You make some good Points on this subject. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Hi Thinker
I appologize for the use of the word “crap”. Not the best choice of words. I know that you have put a lot of study into what you believe and I should respect you for that even though I do not agree with you.
Hope you accept my appollogy!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2009,05:54) Hi Thinker I appologize for the use of the word “crap”. Not the best choice of words. I know that you have put a lot of study into what you believe and I should respect you for that even though I do not agree with you.
Hope you accept my appollogy!
Blessings WJ
WJ,
No worry bro. You're a man after my own heart. I kind of like the word “crap” myself.I was not going to reply to anything today because I have been working on home improvement all day. But I decided to run off a post which is to come shortly.
thinker
WorshippinJesus said:
Quote But “the day of the Lord will come like a thief. “THE HEAVENS WILL DISAPPEAR WITH A ROAR; THE ELEMENTS WILL BE DESTROYED BY FIRE, AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN IT WILL BE LAID BARE. SINCE EVERYTHING WILL BE DESTROYED IN THIS WAY, WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. “THAT DAY WILL BRING ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE HEAVENS BY FIRE, AND THE ELEMENTS WILL MELT IN THE HEAT. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to A New Heaven And A New Earth, the home of righteousness. 2 Peter 3:10-13 Look up the Greek words for “Earth”, “heavens”, “destruction”, “fire”, and “fervent heat” to start with and then try and allegorize them away.
There is nothing there to suggest Peter is talking about the Old covenant melting with fervent heat. That is pure inference and corruption of the text.
The context is talking about a new heaven and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.
WJ,
The text says that the heavens and the earth in Noah's day was destroyed.Quote For this they willingly forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, by which the world that existed then PERISHED, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (2 peter 3:5-7) The heavens and the earth inwhich Noah and his family lived was destroyed. The heavens and the earth that exist now was new to them. Peter was NOT talking about a new heavens and earth inwhich sin is eradicated. The “righteousness” Peter was talking about was the righteousness which is by faith, i.e., justification. Note what Isaiah has to say about the new heavens and earth,
Quote “For behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind…. “…For the child shall die one hundred years old”…
…The sinner being one hundred years old shall be cursed…
…My elect shall enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain nor shall bring forth children for trouble; for they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them…
…And dust shall be the serpent's food….” (Isaiah 65:17-25)
Please note that there is still physical death and that sinners still exist. There is also pro-creation (God's people continue to have children). It also says that they plant vineyards and inhabit houses and enjoy the fruit of their labor.
John says that the gospel invitation still goes out to men,
Quote “And the Spirit and the Bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whosoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely” (Rev. 22:17). The river of water of life exists AFTER the new heavens and earth are created and AFTER the new Jerusalem descended from heaven (21:6) The river of the water of life flows from the throne of God in the middle of the street of the city (22:1-2). And men are invited to come and drink of the waters of salvation (vs. 17).
Unbelievers still exist in the new heavens and earth right outside the gates of the city,
Quote Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates of the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie (22:14-15) There are still sinners present. They are outside the gates of the city but are not allowed to enter in by the gates. Isaiah and Revelation both speak about the presence of sinners.
Some how you think that this destroys our blessed hope. No! Our blessed hope is NOT a future judgment
Quote He that believes shall NOT come into judgment, but has passed from death to life Our blessed hope is NOT the glorification of our earthly body. It is the assumption of a body from heaven,
Quote …while we do not look at the things which are seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if this earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens….For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that death may be swallowed up by life (excerpts from 2 Cor. 4:16-5:4) Paul said that death is swallowed up by the assumption of a body FROM HEAVEN, a body which is not seen by our mortal eye. He said that we are NOT looking for the things that are seen. And in 1 Corinthians 15 he said that death is swallowed up by the putting on of a SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:35-56). Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50).
Before Christ returned in ad70 the people of God slept in hades. Today we go straight to heaven to our immortal bodies from heaven because hades has been cast into the lake of fire.
This is our blessed hope.
thinker
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