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t8 said:
Quote WJ, I like to stick to facts and not tradition. To All,
On another thread t8 uses the expression “ministers of satan” (though he did not call anyone a minister of satan). If t8 stuck to the facts as he claims he would not use such an expression for satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70 and he has no influence or ministers in the world today.
All theological errors today are solely the result of the noetic effects of sin. These are the biblical and historical “facts.” Tradition on the other hand says satan is the cause of erroneous and false doctrines today. This is not possible because satan has been cast into the lake of fire once and for all.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 18 2009,10:46) t8 said: Quote WJ, I like to stick to facts and not tradition. To All,
On another thread t8 uses the expression “ministers of satan” (though he did not call anyone a minister of satan). If t8 stuck to the facts as he claims he would not use such an expression for satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70 and he has no influence or ministers in the world today.
All theological errors today are solely the result of the noetic effects of sin. These are the biblical and historical “facts.” Tradition on the other hand says satan is the cause of erroneous and false doctrines today. This is not possible because satan has been cast into the lake of fire once and for all.
thinker
Hi ThinkerGlad to see you back!
Actually I was the one that brought up “ministers of satan'.
t8 agreed!
I believe that satan is still active in the earth today.
Blessings WJ
WJ said:
Quote Hi Thinker Glad to see you back!
Actually I was the one that brought up “ministers of satan'.
t8 agreed!
I believe that satan is still active in the earth today.
WJ,
I needed to take a break from the posting. I get to the point that I lay awake at night thinking about it and I must stop for a break.What do you do with John 12:31
Quote NOW is the judgment of this world; NOW the prince of this world cast out It says that the prince of this world (satan) was cast out “NOW”. We may allow enough flexibility to the word “now” for some time to elapse. But not two thousand years and counting. I believe that it was fulfilled by the end of Jesus' own generation. Consequently I do not believe that there are ministers of satan today. All false doctrine today is concocted from the deceitful hearts and minds of men.
So how do you understand the statement “NOW is the prince of this world cast out”.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2009,02:46) t8 said: Quote WJ, I like to stick to facts and not tradition. To All,
On another thread t8 uses the expression “ministers of satan” (though he did not call anyone a minister of satan). If t8 stuck to the facts as he claims he would not use such an expression for satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70 and he has no influence or ministers in the world today.
All theological errors today are solely the result of the noetic effects of sin. These are the biblical and historical “facts.” Tradition on the other hand says satan is the cause of erroneous and false doctrines today. This is not possible because satan has been cast into the lake of fire once and for all.
thinker
1 Timothy 4
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.As you can see from the above scripture, there is more than sin involved in people abandoning the faith and truth.
thethinker.
The following is the Concordant commentary on John12:31:31 .'Now is the judging of this world” suggests that God was, at that time, about to judge mankind. But He did not. Judgment still waits. It is the world that was doing the judging. This is confirmed by the same form of the word in “the judging of Gehenna” (Mt.23:33), “the just judging of God” (2Th.1:5). See also Un.14:7, 16:7, 18:10, 19:2. The world would hardly judge Satan, so the Chief here spoken of must be Christ Himself. This title is used again in 14:30 and 16:11, where further evidence is given that our Lord is speaking of Himself. The judging is His exaltation on the cross, for it was a reference to the manner of His death. So it was that the throng understood the term. We should not give one of His titles to Satan. Christ is the world's Chief.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote If t8 stuck to the facts as he claims he would not use such an expression for satan was cast into the lake of fire in AD 70 and he has no influence or ministers in the world today.
So why am I still being tempted to sin and why are people still dying since death is thrown in the lake of fire at the same time?
In fact why am I still waiting for Judgment Day if it already occurred?
Quote (thethinker @ May 18 2009,19:13) WJ said: Quote Hi Thinker Glad to see you back!
Actually I was the one that brought up “ministers of satan'.
t8 agreed!
I believe that satan is still active in the earth today.
WJ,
I needed to take a break from the posting. I get to the point that I lay awake at night thinking about it and I must stop for a break.What do you do with John 12:31
Quote NOW is the judgment of this world; NOW the prince of this world cast out It says that the prince of this world (satan) was cast out “NOW”. We may allow enough flexibility to the word “now” for some time to elapse. But not two thousand years and counting. I believe that it was fulfilled by the end of Jesus' own generation. Consequently I do not believe that there are ministers of satan today. All false doctrine today is concocted from the deceitful hearts and minds of men.
So how do you understand the statement “NOW is the prince of this world cast out”.
thinker
Hi ThinkerI think a better translation of the scripture reads like this…
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world “WILL BE DRIVEN OUT”. John 12:31 NET
The net states this about this verse…
Or “will be thrown out.” This translation regards the future passive ἐκβληθήσεται (ekblhqhsetai) as referring to an event future to the time of speaking.
sn The phrase driven out must refer to Satan’s loss of authority over this world. This must be in principle rather than in immediate fact, since 1 John 5:19 states that the whole world (still) lies in the power of the evil one (a reference to Satan). In an absolute sense the reference is proleptic. The coming of Jesus’ hour (his crucifixion, death, resurrection, and exaltation to the Father) marks the end of Satan’s domain and brings about his defeat, even though that defeat has not been ultimately worked out in history yet and awaits the consummation of the age. Source'
I believe that when Jesus died on the cross and said it is finished, judicially everything was accomplished.
Yet we do not see everything yet put under Jesus feet, the last enemy to be destroyed being death.
So what do you say of these scriptures that John penned some 60-75 years later…
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and “THE EVIL ONE CANNOT HARM HIM”. We know that we are children of God, and that “THE WHOLE WORLD IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE EVIL ONE”. 1 John 5:18, 19
Blessings WJ
Quote (t8 @ May 19 2009,16:47) Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2009,02:46) t8 said: Quote WJ, I like to stick to facts and not tradition. To All,
On another thread t8 uses the expression “ministers of satan” (though he did not call anyone a minister of satan). If t8 stuck to the facts as he claims he would not use such an expression for satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70 and he has no influence or ministers in the world today.
All theological errors today are solely the result of the noetic effects of sin. These are the biblical and historical “facts.” Tradition on the other hand says satan is the cause of erroneous and false doctrines today. This is not possible because satan has been cast into the lake of fire once and for all.
thinker
1 Timothy 4
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.As you can see from the above scripture, there is more than sin involved in people abandoning the faith and truth.
t8,
You did not deal with John 12:31. Jesus said “NOW is the prince of this world cast out.” Your reference to the 1 Timothy 4 offers no support for your futurist view. God's people were int the last days as Paul wrote to Timothy (Acts 2: Heb. 1:1). We are NOT in the last days now. We are in the new covenant age.I offer you another verse for your consideration. To the saints at Rome Paul said,
Quote And the God of peace will crush satan under your feet SHORTLY (Rom.16:20) Note that it explicitly says that God would crush satan SHORTLY. This means that those saints at Rome WOULD BE LIVING when God crushed satan. Shortly means shortly. It says also that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet and not under the feet of saints thousands of years in the future.
There is no explaining it away.
thinker
Quote (chosenone @ May 19 2009,17:32) thethinker.
The following is the Concordant commentary on John12:31:31 .'Now is the judging of this world” suggests that God was, at that time, about to judge mankind. But He did not. Judgment still waits. It is the world that was doing the judging. This is confirmed by the same form of the word in “the judging of Gehenna” (Mt.23:33), “the just judging of God” (2Th.1:5). See also Un.14:7, 16:7, 18:10, 19:2. The world would hardly judge Satan, so the Chief here spoken of must be Christ Himself. This title is used again in 14:30 and 16:11, where further evidence is given that our Lord is speaking of Himself. The judging is His exaltation on the cross, for it was a reference to the manner of His death. So it was that the throng understood the term. We should not give one of His titles to Satan. Christ is the world's Chief.
ch,
The commentary you offered contradicts itself. Your source says that God was “about” to judge but did not. Jesus said, “I am ABOUT to be betrayed into the hands of sinners.” He was indeed betrayed. I cannot consider any commentary that contradicts itself. Thanks anyway.thinker
kerwin said:
Quote So why am I still being tempted to sin and why are people still dying since death is thrown in the lake of fire at the same time? In fact why am I still waiting for Judgment Day if it already occurred?
You are tempted to sin on account of your own lusts (James 1). Physical death was NOT thrown into the lake of fire. The death that was thrown into the lake of fire was CONDEMNATION. Paul said that death is condemnation (Rom. 5).
If you are still waiting to be judged it is because you have not yet believed the true gospel. The true gospel says that those who believe Jesus' word shall not come into judgment,
Quote Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes on Him who sent me shall NOT come into judgment, but had passed out of death into life” (John 5:24) Note that it says that the believer has passed out of death (i.e., condemnation). Jesus said also that those who do not believe have been judged ALREADY,
Quote He who believes is not judged; but he who believes not has been judged ALREADY. No man awaits judgment. All judgement of all kind took place at Christ's first coming. All we wait for now is our reward.
thinker
WJ wrote:
Quote Or “will be thrown out.” This translation regards the future passive ἐκβληθήσεται (ekblhqhsetai) as referring to an event future to the time of speaking. Hi WJ,
The future passive “WILL BE THROWN OUT” must be understood in conjunction with the word “now.” It must necessarily mean the NEAR future. Jesus was ALREADY judging,Quote I can do nothing of myself, As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous because I seek not my own will (John 5:30) Note that Jesus used present tense verbs. ” As I HEAR, I JUDGE.” He said that the word that he spoke is what judges men (John 12:48). Men are expecting a future word from God but there will be none. God has spoken ALREADY and has judged all men. Those who believe will receive their reward and those who do not believe will receive their reward too.
Paul told Felix that the judgment was ABOUT TO HAPPEN,
Quote Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self control and the judgment about to happen, Felix was afraid…. (Acts 24:25) Note that Paul said that the judgment was ABOUT TO HAPPEN and it made Felix afraid. Men do not fear judgment when they think it is being postponed. But Felix was afraid for good reason. He was afraid because Paul told him that the judgment was about to happen meaning it was VERY NEAR.
Paul used the Greek word “mello” (about to be or happen). Agabus prophesied that a great famine was about to happen (mello) and it came to pass (Acts 11:27-28). Jesus used the same word when He said, “I am about to be (mello) betrayed into the hands of sinners.” We are not still awaiting for Jesus to be betrayed.
All judgment of all kind has occurred. All that men await for now is their reward. John 5:28 says that men will be resurrected to their reward and NOT TO BE JUDGED.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2009,11:18) Quote (t8 @ May 19 2009,16:47) Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2009,02:46) t8 said: Quote WJ, I like to stick to facts and not tradition. To All,
On another thread t8 uses the expression “ministers of satan” (though he did not call anyone a minister of satan). If t8 stuck to the facts as he claims he would not use such an expression for satan was cast into the lake of fire in ad70 and he has no influence or ministers in the world today.
All theological errors today are solely the result of the noetic effects of sin. These are the biblical and historical “facts.” Tradition on the other hand says satan is the cause of erroneous and false doctrines today. This is not possible because satan has been cast into the lake of fire once and for all.
thinker
1 Timothy 4
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.As you can see from the above scripture, there is more than sin involved in people abandoning the faith and truth.
t8,
You did not deal with John 12:31. Jesus said “NOW is the prince of this world cast out.” Your reference to the 1 Timothy 4 offers no support for your futurist view. God's people were int the last days as Paul wrote to Timothy (Acts 2: Heb. 1:1). We are NOT in the last days now. We are in the new covenant age.I offer you another verse for your consideration. To the saints at Rome Paul said,
Quote And the God of peace will crush satan under your feet SHORTLY (Rom.16:20) Note that it explicitly says that God would crush satan SHORTLY. This means that those saints at Rome WOULD BE LIVING when God crushed satan. Shortly means shortly. It says also that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet and not under the feet of saints thousands of years in the future.
There is no explaining it away.
thinker
Hi ThinkerQuote (thethinker @ May 19 2009,11:18) Note that it explicitly says that God would crush satan SHORTLY. This means that those saints at Rome WOULD BE LIVING when God crushed satan. Shortly means shortly. It says also that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet and not under the feet of saints thousands of years in the future. There is no explaining it away.
And the God of peace shall “BRUISE” Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Rom 16:20
The Greek word for “Bruise” is ‘syntribō’, which means…
1) break, to break in pieces, shiver
2) to tread down
a) to put Satan under foot and (as a conqueror) trample on him
b) to break down, crush
1) to tear one's body and shatter one's strengthIts translated in the AV bruise 3, break 2, broken to shivers 1, brokenhearted + 2588 1, break in pieces 1
It doesn’t mean “destroyed”. The same word is used here…
The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are “BRUISED [syntribō ]”,
The church is involved in spiritual warfare with principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12
The god of this world who can transform himself into an angel of light roams about seeking whom he may devour. He has come down having great wrath against the bride of Christ. IMO
WJ
WJ wrote:
Quote And the God of peace shall “BRUISE” Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Rom 16:20 The Greek word for “Bruise” is ‘syntribō’, which means…
1) break, to break in pieces, shiver
2) to tread down
a) to put Satan under foot and (as a conqueror) trample on him
b) to break down, crush
1) to tear one's body and shatter one's strengthIts translated in the AV bruise 3, break 2, broken to shivers 1, brokenhearted + 2588 1, break in pieces 1
It doesn’t mean “destroyed”.
WJ,
It appears as if we agree that satan was “broken in pieces” under the feet of the saints in Rome. Would you then explain what power he could possibly have today seeing that he has been broken in pieces? When was satan's power given back to him?WJ said:
Quote The church is involved in spiritual warfare with principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12 I agree that Church saints were involved in spiritual warfare. However, post ad70 saints are not members of the Church. The Church was Christ's wife and we are her children (Isaiah 54). Post ad70 saints are to be distinguished from Church saints as a wife is to be distinguished from her children. The Church (Christ's wife) won the battle for us (the children). Therefore, we do not engage in spiritual warfare today. All spiritual wickedness has been destroyed by our mother the Church. All we must do today is bask in God's free and unconditional grace and live according to His new covenant principles.
WJ said:
Quote The god of this world who can transform himself into an angel of light roams about seeking whom he may devour. He has come down having great wrath against the bride of Christ Paul used the Greek “aion”. He said the satan was the god of this “age” (meaning the age inwhich he lived). That age is BEHIND us. Saints today are in the new covenant age which metaphorically is called the “new heaven and earth”. The new covenant age has no God other than Jesus Christ (let the unitarians here note that I said that Jesus Christ is the GOD of the new covenant age). Satan is no “god” of anything today. He has been cast into the lake of fire (John 12:31 with Rev. 20:10).
blessings,
thinkerQuote (thethinker @ May 19 2009,17:54) WJ wrote: Quote And the God of peace shall “BRUISE” Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Rom 16:20 The Greek word for “Bruise” is ‘syntribō’, which means…
1) break, to break in pieces, shiver
2) to tread down
a) to put Satan under foot and (as a conqueror) trample on him
b) to break down, crush
1) to tear one's body and shatter one's strengthIts translated in the AV bruise 3, break 2, broken to shivers 1, brokenhearted + 2588 1, break in pieces 1
It doesn’t mean “destroyed”.
WJ,
It appears as if we agree that satan was “broken in pieces” under the feet of the saints in Rome. Would you then explain what power he could possibly have today seeing that he has been broken in pieces? When was satan's power given back to him?WJ said:
Quote The church is involved in spiritual warfare with principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12 I agree that Church saints were involved in spiritual warfare. However, post ad70 saints are not members of the Church. The Church was Christ's wife and we are her children (Isaiah 54). Post ad70 saints are to be distinguished from Church saints as a wife is to be distinguished from her children. The Church (Christ's wife) won the battle for us (the children). Therefore, we do not engage in spiritual warfare today. All spiritual wickedness has been destroyed by our mother the Church. All we must do today is bask in God's free and unconditional grace and live according to His new covenant principles.
WJ said:
Quote The god of this world who can transform himself into an angel of light roams about seeking whom he may devour. He has come down having great wrath against the bride of Christ Paul used the Greek “aion”. He said the satan was the god of this “age” (meaning the age inwhich he lived). That age is BEHIND us. Saints today are in the new covenant age which metaphorically is called the “new heaven and earth”. The new covenant age has no God other than Jesus Christ (let the unitarians here note that I said that Jesus Christ is the GOD of the new covenant age). Satan is no “god” of anything today. He has been cast into the lake of fire (John 12:31 with Rev. 20:10).
blessings,
thinker
Hi ThinkerTo much to respond to right now but I will ask you this…
You keep saying that all this happened in 70AD.
But John did not write the Gospel of John and the Epistles until about 20 – 40 Years after that.
Again John said in one of the last of his writings which was written around 100-110 AD…
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and “THE EVIL ONE CANNOT HARM HIM”. We know that we are children of God, and that “THE WHOLE WORLD IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE EVIL ONE”. 1 John 5:18, 19
WJ
Hi Thinker
Another scripture in 1 John.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
and
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:10
Also if you read writings of the early church Fathers like Ignatious (a disciple of the beloved John), you will see them refering to satan. In fact Ignatious called false teachers ministers of satan.
Blessings WJ
The Thinker wrote:
Quote You are tempted to sin on account of your own lusts.
This one unlike other things you say sounds like a legitimate point of misunderstanding so I will address its flaws more gently than with some of what you say.
I am tempted by my own evil desire but whom is the one that tempts me. It certainly is not God who cannot tempt one with evil.
Who tempted Eve in the Eden using the snake and who next tempted Adam using Eve?
Since you chose to mention James then so will I.
James 4:7(KJV) reads:
Quote Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Physical death was NOT thrown into the lake of fire. The death that was thrown into the lake of fire was CONDEMNATION.
This is a laugher as you have just declared the lake of fire, which is the second death, is destroyed by the lake of fire. Do you actually think through this nonsense through before it comes out your mouth?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote The true gospel says that those who believe Jesus' word shall not come into judgment,
What Jesus do you choose to believe in? Is he the Jesus that was born of Mary of the Line of David or just someone that have made up in your own mind.
According to your false doctrine it is not necessary to believe as condemnation had been destroyed in the lake of fire in AD 70. Make up your mind.
Hi all:
WJ quoted the scripture that thethinker questioned:
Quote Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world “WILL BE DRIVEN OUT”. John 12:31 NET Prior to the resurrection there would be no accountability for the life that evil men lived, unless they were under the law of Moses, but he said “if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me”. There will be a day of judgment for all of mankind.
Love in Christ,
Martythinker
Then, according to you, the millennium has already past; was Satan not chained up for a thousand years?
Satan is the last enemy to be destroyed, after Satan is gone, no more sin, no more death.
Satan is still the god of this world, Jesus conquered Satan by conquering sin, by conquering sin he conquered death, by conquering death he conquered the one who had the power over death, Satan.
Jesus has already been crowned King, he just hasn't began to rule yet.Georg
WJ said:
Quote Hi Thinker To much to respond to right now but I will ask you this…
You keep saying that all this happened in 70AD.
But John did not write the Gospel of John and the Epistles until about 20 – 40 Years after that.
Again John said in one of the last of his writings which was written around 100-110 AD…
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and “THE EVIL ONE CANNOT HARM HIM”. We know that we are children of God, and that “THE WHOLE WORLD IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE EVIL ONE”. 1 John 5:18, 19
Hi WJ,
My reply is two-fold. First, as a Preterist I accept the earlier dating for John's writings. Go to Preteristarchive.com. It has been a while since I have visited but I am sure you will find some info on the dating of John's writings.Second, John did not say that the evil “one” cannot harm the child of God. He said that “the evil” cannot harm the one who is born of God. He was not referring to satan. The “evil” that could not harm the child of God was the teaching which denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is what is meant by the expression “whosoever is born of God cannot sin”. John did not mean that a Christian is unable to sin. John was not speaking about sin in general. He was speaking about the specific sin of denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is “the wicked [sin]” that cannot harm the child of God while the whole world outside was under the influence of that docetic teaching.
blessings,
thinker
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