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Hi Thinker,
May God bless you, brother! You had my sides splitting with this one. Especially the three steps ahead!Jack, these posts are getting longer and longer. I want to shorten them. I will number the disagreements we are now discussing on my next post. Then we can debate only three in a post until the list is complete. As new areas of disagreement come up, we can deal with them at the time, or add them to the list (you have editing rights). I think that neither of us feel like our points are being proplerly addressed because there are so many of them.
I hope you are okay with this. At least we will be able to stop the circling this way.
peace and love,
mikePOINTS OF DISCUSSION
1. SITTING AT RIGHT HAND MEANS EQUALITY
2. GOD IS A PLURAL GOD
3. TESTATOR MUST DIE
4. CAN JESUS BE THE MEDIATOR AND GOD ALMIGHTY?
5. SCRIPTURES THAT SAY JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY OR EQUAL
6. MEANING OF FIRSTBORN
7. MEANING OF BEGOTTEN
8. MEANING OF “OF ALL CREATION”
9. JESUS IS NAMED JEHOVAH
10. I AM
11. WHEN WAS JESUS BEGOTTEN?
12. WHY DID STEPHEN SEE WHAT HE SAW?
13. WHO DID STEPHEN ASK TO FORGIVE STONERS?
14. JOHN 1:3 – “NOT ONE THING”
15. FATHER AND SON DO ALL THINGS AS ONE
16. JESUS DYING OF HIS OWN WILL – A SIGN OF EQUALITY WITH GOD?
17. HEBREWS 1:8
18. WERE DAVID AND OTHERS SAVIORS
19. OLD COVENANT FORGIVENESS OF SINS
20. DID BEING GOD'S SON MAKE JESUS EQUAL WITH GOD?
21. DID BOTH CHRIST AND THE FATHER PUT ENEMIES UNDER JESUS' FEET?
22. 1 COR 15 – WHO DOES THE SECOND “HE” REFER TO?
23. 1 JOHN 5:20
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2010,11:47) Hi Thinker, May God bless you, brother! You had my sides splitting with this one. Especially the three steps ahead!Jack, these posts are getting longer and longer. I want to shorten them. I will number the disagreements we are now discussing on my next post. Then we can debate only three in a post until the list is complete. As new areas of disagreement come up, we can deal with them at the time, or add them to the list (you have editing rights). I think that neither of us feel like our points are being proplerly addressed because there are so many of them.
I hope you are okay with this. At least we will be able to stop the circling this way.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,Let's start with your point #11 which is “WHEN WAS JESUS BEGOTTEN?”
You said:
Quote Again, ECHOING PAUL'S WORDS (no chapter and verse), when it says “not one thing”, it is clear that this doesn't include Jesus, who had already been begotten by God.” I replied:
Did you notice that I put your word “already” in bold? This is where you err. Jesus had not been begotten “already” before creation. He was begotten AT HIS RESURRECTION AND EXALTATION to God's right hand.
Peter said:
33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath RAISED UP Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm,
“Thou art my Son, TODAY have I begotten thee.” Acts 13:33
There you have it! Jesus was “begotten” at His exaltation. Therefore, He pre-existed His being begotten.
Now go back to John 1:3 and read it correctly. It CLEARLY says that “without Him NOT ONE THING came into being that has come into being.”
Jesus had not been begotten “already” as you say. He was “begotten” at His exaltation when He assumed His position as God's officiating Son. Peter applied the term “TODAY I have begotten you” to the time of His resurrection and exaltation. See also Hebrews chapters 1 & 5.
Do you know what “TODAY” means Mike?
Mike,
Your argument that the term “begotten” means that Jesus came into being “already” fails because He had not been been “begotten” UNTIL His resurrection and exaltation. Peter CLEARLY said that Jesus was raised up “as it is written in the second Psalm, 'You are My son, TODAY I have begotten You.' “
Therefore, He pre-existed His being begotten as I proved in my previous post. So John's statement that “without Him NOT ONE THING came into being that has come into being” means exactly what it says. John excludes Jesus as having come into being.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
I already like this point by point better.
John 3:16-17 says:
Quote 16″For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” This is Jesus talking – do you see the past tense in both verses? Jesus was already begotten by the time he was on earth. If Jesus is God's beggoten Son, it makes him the Son of God, right? Why would he call himself the Son of God while on earth if he hadn't yet been begotten?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2010,14:26) Hi Thinker, I already like this point by point better.
John 3:16-17 says:
Quote 16″For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” This is Jesus talking – do you see the past tense in both verses? Jesus was already begotten by the time he was on earth. If Jesus is God's beggoten Son, it makes him the Son of God, right? Why would he call himself the Son of God while on earth if he hadn't yet been begotten?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,I like this point by point thing better too.
Please answer Peter's statement in Acts 13. I was disappointed to see that you didn't touch it. We are told THREE times in the new testament that Jesus was “begotten” at His resurrection and exaltation (Acts 13; Hebrews 1 & 5).
You must explain the language “TODAY I have begotten you.” Please explain the word “TODAY.”
Jesus indeed knew Himself to be the Son of God before His exaltation because the Spirit was upon Him and because He anticipated that He would be exalted. But He was not actually begotten until He was exalted.
The same principle is true regarding our sonship. Paul said that we have the “spirit of adoption” whereby we cry “Abba, Father.” And Paul calls us to behave like sons. But we will not be actually adopted until we are glorified.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Note that Paul says that we are “eagerly waiting for the adoption.” Then he says that we were saved “in this hope.” Then he clinches it saying, “Hope that is seen is not hope.”
“Hope that is seen is not hope.” The spirit of adoption is within us and we know ourselves to be sons. But we have not yet been actually adopted.
Just as we know ourselves to be sons because we have the spirit of adoption, and because we anticipate our glorification when we will be actually adopted, so Jesus knew Himself to be the Son of God because the Spirit was upon Him, and because He anticipated His exaltation when He would be actually “begotten” to the position as God's officiating Son. For Jesus was anticipating His becoming the official head of God's family as the “only begotten son” was the head of a Hebrew family.
Therefore, you have not proven that the word “begotten” in reference to Jesus means that He came into being. For He PRE-EXISTED His being begotten. John CLEARLY said that “without Him NOT ONE THING came into being that has come into being.”
Please answer Peter's timing of the begetting. I will dog you until you do.
Acts 13:30-34: But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has RAISED UP JESUS. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘ You are My Son,
TODAY I have begotten You.’thinker
Hi Thinker,
The statement Paul (not Peter) made in Acts 13:33 stems from the second Pslam, like he says. Psalm 2 says:
Quote 4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,6 “I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.”Read this carefully. Verse 4 is clearly talking about Jehovah (at least in the first sentence, in the second sentence, “Lord” could be either Jesus or Jehovah – doesn't matter though). Verse 5 is about Jehovah based on what is said in verse 6. Verse 7 is Jesus talking. Now there is no time frame explained here. This was most likely the first words Jesus ever heard in his life, and they were said to him before the universe was created. How do we know? Hebrews 1:2 tells us:
Quote 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. Jesus was already God's Son before the universe was made. He was God's begotten Son since the time of his own creation. He was never God or equal to Him, but always His begotten Son. How do we know this? Hebrews 1:4 tells us:
Quote 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. Once you learn that the right hand is a place of honor, protection and authority – not a place of equality, this will make more sense to you. But for now, if Jesus was God Almighty or equal to Him before he came in the flesh, how could he, after providing purification for sins, “BECOME” much more superior to the angels? Jehovah is SUPERIORITY INFINITY. He can never “BECOME” more superior. The Scriptures tell us that God Almighty never changes.
In Hebrews 1 and 5, Paul doesn't specify when God said, “Today I have begotten you”. The only one that requires some thinking is Acts 13:
Quote 32″We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.' 34The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words:
” 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.' 35So it is stated elsewhere:
” 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.'What promise to “our fathers” did Jehovah fulfill by raising Jesus from the dead? He installed His King on Zion. (Psalm 2:6) I think Paul quoted what Jesus said in Psalm 2:7 so we would understand that this Christ was indeed the Son of God that spoke in that Psalm. And since the Christ was indeed the Son of God, and by being raised he became King, we know that this is the King prophesied about many times. The one from David's line who will rule with righteousness forever. That is the promise that was fulfilled by God when He raised Jesus.
Here's a couple more Scriptures that show that Jesus was already the begotten Son of God before he was raised.
John 1:18;
Quote 18No one has ever seen God, but the only begotten god, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. How did the only begotten god Jesus, who is now at the Father's side, make God known? Wasn't it by his ministry on earth?
And 2 Peter 1 says:
Quote 16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” First, God didn't say, “This is my soon to be Son…” Second, Peter and the other apostles were “eyewitnesses” to the fact that Jesus was the Son of God while he was on the earth, before he was raised. In fact, Jesus said he would build his church on Peter's revelation that he was the Son of the Living God.
And finally:
Quote John 17:5 NIV
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Jesus asks for the glory he had before the world began. He not only received that glory but was elevated to a higher position than before. He is not God Almighty now, as he sits at The Almighty's right hand, so he could not have been God Almighty before, since he was elevated to a higher position than before. One more time, just so you get it – how can God Almighty or one equal to Him be elevated to a HIGHER position? Not possible.
Please don't start on another point until we're BOTH satisfied that this one is resolved.
peace and love,
mikeMike said:
Quote First, God didn't say, “This is my soon to be Son…” Second, Peter and the other apostles were “eyewitnesses” to the fact that Jesus was the Son of God while he was on the earth, before he was raised. In fact, Jesus said he would build his church on Peter's revelation that he was the Son of the Living God. Mike,
You are correct that it was Paul who was speaking in Acts 13. But you still did not specifically answer his statement, “TODAY I have begotten you.” PLEASE ANSWER!
It CLEARLY says that Jesus was begotten AT HIS RESURRECTION AND EXALTATION. Note ALL wording in bold:
30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has RAISED UP JESUS. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘ You are My Son,
TODAY I have begotten You.’34 And that He raised Him from the dead
You did NOT answer Acts 13! It CLEARLY says that Jesus was begotten AT HIS RESURRECTION.
Mike:
Quote First, God didn't say “This is my soon to be Son…” There is no verb in the Psalm. The verb “you are My Son” is in italics which means that it is not in the Hebrew text and that the translators have added it.
In Hebrews 1 the apostle joins two different prophecies together which makes it CLEAR that Jesus was to be “begotten” in the prophet's future:
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?And again:
“ I WILL BE to Him a Father,
And He SHALL BE to Me a Son”?There it is! The second quote is from 2 Samuel 7:14 which says, “I WILL BE to Him a father, and He SHALL BE to Me a son. It is spoken of in the FUTURE TENSE!
Therefore, Jesus was NOT the Son of God when the prophecies of Psalm 2 and 2 Samuel 7 were written.
The Hebrew-English Interlinear has the future tense verbs in 2 Samuel 7:14. But there is no verb at all in Psalm 2:7.
See the links below for the Interlinear on 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalm 2:7
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/2sa7.pdf
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa2.pdf
Mike:
Quote Second, Peter and the other apostles were “eyewitnesses” to the fact that Jesus was the Son of God while he was on the earth,
Didn't I say this already? I said that Jesus knew Himself to be the Son of God because the Spirit was upon Him and because He anticipated His exaltation when He would be exalted to His position as God's officiating Son. But He was not actually “begotten” until His exaltation to the Father's right hand. The word “begotten” refers to His OFFICE at the Father's right hand.If you fail again to specifically answer the words “TODAY I have begotten You” like I have asked several times, then you lose this point by default and we will move on to the next point of your choice.
You have not proven that “begotten” means that Jesus came into being.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
You said this:
Quote But you still did not specifically answer his statement, “TODAY I have begotten you.” PLEASE ANSWER! And this:
Quote If you fail again to specifically answer the words “TODAY I have begotten You” like I have asked several times, then you lose this point by default and we will move on to the next point of your choice. To which I will respond with the answer I gave you yesterday:
Quote What promise to “our fathers” did Jehovah fulfill by raising Jesus from the dead? He installed His King on Zion. (Psalm 2:6) I think Paul quoted what Jesus said in Psalm 2:7 so we would understand that this Christ was indeed the Son of God that spoke in that Psalm. And since the Christ was indeed the Son of God, and by being raised he became King, we know that this is the King prophesied about many times. The one from David's line who will rule with righteousness forever. That is the promise that was fulfilled by God when He raised Jesus. Did God ever make a promise to His people that He would raise His Messiah from the dead and at the same time give him the “official title of Begotten Son”, which really means he is also God Almighty? Not that I am aware of. Paul is talking about a promise God made to “our fathers” that was fulfilled by Christ being raised from the dead. The only promise I am aware of that was made to the pre-Jesus Israelites and was fulfilled by Christ being raised from the dead is the one about God installing His King on Zion – the One who will rule with righteousness forever.
But think about what you're saying. Jesus was God Almighty, then became flesh, then became God's Son who sits at God's right hand until God puts his enemies under his feet, then will subject himself to God so that God will be all in all. Talk about a demotion! Jesus sure went through a lot of suffering and did everything right, just to receive a lower position than when he started.
Fortunately for Jesus, it is all man-made lies. 1. How could Jesus be raised to a more superior position than his former one if he was already God Almighty?
You said:
Quote “ I WILL BE to Him a Father,
And He SHALL BE to Me a Son”?There it is! The second quote is from 2 Samuel 7:14 which says, “I WILL BE to Him a father, and He SHALL BE to Me a son. It is spoken of in the FUTURE TENSE!
Why didn't you quote the rest of 2 Samuel 7:14? I will:
Quote 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 2 Samuel chapter 7 begins with David talking to the prophet Nathan about building a temple for Jehovah. Jehovah tells David through Nathan that Solomon will be the one to do that. I can't explain at this time why Paul attributed this Scripture to Jesus. I never heard of Jesus “doing wrong and having to be punished.” So let me just say this – I can't answer either of your Scriptures at this time any better than I have. If God sends a better understanding to me, I will share it with you.
You said:
Quote I said that Jesus knew Himself to be the Son of God because the Spirit was upon Him and because He anticipated His exaltation when He would be exalted to His position as God's officiating Son. But He was not actually “begotten” until His exaltation to the Father's right hand. The word “begotten” refers to His OFFICE at the Father's right hand. Thinker, this is a load of you know what. Jesus KNEW himself to be the Son of God, but he wasn't REALLY the Son of God yet? And begotten really refers to his “office”? Show me the Scriptures that enlightened you on these little tidbits of information. Ones that actually corroborate both of these assertions clearly, please.
In addition to the Scriptures I've just asked for and the bolded question above, please answer these also:
2. (Hebrews 1:2) How could the universe be made through God's Son if he wasn't God's Son until he was raised from the dead?
3. (John 1:18) How did the only begotten god Jesus, who is now at the Father's side, make God known to the disciples if he wasn't begotten until he was raised from the dead?
4. (Matthew 3:17) Why did God say, “This IS my Son, with whom I AM well pleased…” if in fact Jesus wouldn't BE His Son for three more years?
peace and love,
mikeMike said:
Quote What promise to “our fathers” did Jehovah fulfill by raising Jesus from the dead? He installed His King on Zion. (Psalm 2:6) I think Paul quoted what Jesus said in Psalm 2:7 so we would understand that this Christ was indeed the Son of God that spoke in that Psalm.
Mike,
Of course it means that Jesus is the Son of God as spoken of in the Psalm. Gosh man! But you do not specifically account for the word “TODAY” in reference to the timing of the begetting. And the word “TODAY” specifically puts the timing of the begetting at the time of the resurrection. You have not yet commented on this word or even touched it or even used the word. How does one comment on a word that he does not even use?
Your failure to use the word means only one thing. You are sweeping it under the rug.
The fact that Paul refers to the Psalm to show that Christ is the Son of God does not mean that the “begetting” was not future from the writing of the Psalm.
Mike said:
Quote And since the Christ was indeed the Son of God, and by being raised he became King,
Jesus became the Son when He became King:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. 2 Samuel 7:12-14
This prophecy CLEARLY indicates that Jesus becomes the Son (officially) WHEN He becomes King.
God CLEARLY told David that when he establishes his seed's throne that “I WILL BE a Father to Him and He SHALL BE a Son to Me.”
Therefore, the expression “Today I have begotten You” means that Christ became the Son (officially) WHEN He became King.
This in turn means that Jesus PRE-EXISTED His being begotten and you don't have squat by way of “proof” that it means that He came into being. Your explanation that Paul was referring back to the Psalm to show that Jesus was God's Son is lame. For this does not prove that the “begetting” was not future from the standpoint of the writing of the Psalm.
Furthermore, there are many who believe that Jesus was begotten at His earthly birth. This is more consistent with the literal application of the word “begotten.” Many others believe that He was begotten at the Jordan river when the Spirit descended upon him. At least these interpreters have enough sense to know that the Psalm is prophetic of a “begetting” that was yet to come. Come on!
Mike:
Quote Jesus KNEW himself to be the Son of God, but he wasn't REALLY the Son of God yet?
I have given my reasons for saying this. Note these following facts:1. Jesus also knew Himself to be the Son of Man who descended from heaven. Yet He still had to be born of a woman.
2. We know ourselves to be adopted sons of God though we are “eagerly awaiting for the adoption as sons” (Rom. 8:23).
3. Paul said that Abraham became the father of many nations at the time God spoke the word (Romans 4). But Abraham did not actually become the father of many nations until the Gentiles came into the covenant. In God's thinking Abraham was ALREADY the father of the gentiles.
4. Jesus rode into Jerusalem as her King though He was not officially King yet.
Mike:
Quote And begotten really refers to his “office”? Show me the Scriptures that enlightened you on these little tidbits of information.
The word “begotten” also has reference to His becoming High priest:5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, “Thou art my Son, TODAY have I begotten thee.”
6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 5:5-6
There you go! The word “begotten” refers to an office.
So the term “begotten” has reference to Christ's office as King – Priest – Son, all rolled into one word.
Even if I could be wrong it would not prove you are right in saying “begotten” means that He came into being. For many trintarians and non-trinitarians alike believe that Jesus was begotten at His physical birth. But I have the expression that all other interpreters ignore. I have the statement “TODAY I have begotten You” as a reference to Christ's resurrection and exaltation when He assumed His office as King, Priest and Son (Acts 13, Hebrews 1 & 5).
ISAAC WAS ABRAHAM'S SON BEFORE HE BECAME HIS ONLY “BEGOTTEN”
Give it up Mike! You have lost this point. So let's move on to the next point. You may choose the next point we discuss.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
I started thinking last night that based on that statement from Paul, maybe you're right. But it didn't make sense to me because a person begins to exist only when he is begotten or created, unless he is God. And if Jesus was God, he would have “taken the form of” God's Son as he “took the form of” a servant. He can't be procreated if he already exists. And at the same time I was asking God for clarity and running it through my mind over and over. Then it came to me – Keep It Simple Stupid. So here goes:
Psalm 2:7 says:
Quote 7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.We know this is Jesus talking, but we don't know exactly when he said this. In Acts 13, Paul is talking about a savior that was promised to the Jew's “fathers” being delivered:
Quote 23″From this man's (David's) descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. And then Paul says who will benefit by this savior:
Quote 26″Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. And why:
Quote 27The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. Then Paul puts it all together:
Quote 32″We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. The promise that was fulfilled by raising Jesus is that the world now had the one through whom God would save us.
Then Paul quotes Psalm 2:7. Remember that some of the people Paul was talking to might not have ever even heard of Jesus. And of those who had, most had probably heard of the healings and great teachings, but did not realize he was the prophesied Messiah. And nobody in that crowd probably had any notion at all that this Messiah was actually the real begotten Son of God. Even the apostles were just starting to understand that Jesus was actually the real deal (read the end of the Gospels). Paul was doing exactly what Jesus told him to do in Acts 9:
Quote 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
And in verses 15 and 16, Jesus says about Paul:
Quote 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” So what does Paul do? Verse 20 says:
Quote 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. So it seems it was like I suspected all along. Paul quotes Psalm 2:7 not to indicate WHEN Jesus was begotten, but to preach that this Jesus that was raised from the dead was in fact the Son of God. The word today was already in the Scripture, so Paul didn't exclude it. And each time Paul quoted Psalm 2:7, it was only to emphasize the point that Jesus is the Son of God, nothing more.
Your 3 answers to the question of how Jesus knew he was the Son of God before he actually became the Son of God are bogus. The first one just confirsm that Jesus knew he was the Son of God who was sent from heaven while he was on earth. The second is a misinterpretation of the Scripture. Romans 8:19 says:
Quote 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. And verse 23 says:
Quote 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, And we can discuss point 3 about Abraham at length if you want, but only if you actually answer MY questions. I've added some more.
1. How could Jesus be raised to a more superior position than his former one if he was already God Almighty?
2. (Hebrews 1:2) How could the universe be made through God's Son if he wasn't God's Son until he was raised from the dead?
3. (John 1:18) How did the only begotten god Jesus, who is now at the Father's side, make God known to the disciples if he wasn't begotten until he was raised from the dead?
4. (Matthew 3:17) Why did God say, “This IS my Son, with whom I AM well pleased…” if in fact Jesus wouldn't BE His Son for three more years?
Hebrews 1:6 says;
Quote 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”5. How can God bring His firstborn into the world if he doesn't become His firstborn until he leaves it?
6. Did any person in Scripture ever say anything to corroborate what you think Paul said? Apostle, disciple, Jesus, Jehovah?
7. How did Satan and the demons all know Jesus was the Son of God, if he wasn't yet?
Please don't answer these with “they knew he would be” or your misguided thoughts about begotten meaning a position, unless you can back it up with Scripture.
peace and love,
mikeMike said:
Quote I started thinking last night that based on that statement from Paul, maybe you're right. But it didn't make sense to me because a person begins to exist only when he is begotten or created, unless he is God. And if Jesus was God, he would have “taken the form of” God's Son as he “took the form of” a servant. He can't be procreated if he already exists. And at the same time I was asking God for clarity and running it through my mind over and over. Then it came to me – Keep It Simple Stupid.
Mike,
Okay , Let's Keep It Simple.Look at Psalm 89:
I have found David my servant;
with my sacred oil I have anointed him….He will call out to me, 'You are my Father,
my God, the Rock my Savior.'I will also APPOINT him my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail. Psalm 89:20-27 NIVNote that God said that “I have anointed” David and he will call out to me, “You are my father.” It was AFTER David was anointed that he was appointed as God's “firstborn” son. The name “firstborn” had reference to David's office and rank as God's supreme king (at that time).
David was anointed and then appointed as God's “firstborn.” He became the “firstborn” when he took the throne as king. The appointment as God's “firstborn” was FUTURE from the anointing. “I have anointed… I will also appoint him.”
So Jesus was also anointed and afterwards appointed as God's “firstborn” (or begotten) Son. It means that He is God's SUPREME King.
David and Jesus were both God's “firstborn” son. This shows that the name “firstborn” had reference to their office and rank. If the term “firstborn” means “the first to come into being,” then they both could not have been God's “firstborn.”
So when the terms “firstborn” and “begotten” are understoood in their cultural context as referring to one's exaltation as king it becomes plain that there is no scripture at all that says that Jesus came into being:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, And without Him NOT ONE THING has come into being that has come into being
Just as David became God's “firstborn” son when he was exalted as king, so Jesus became the “firstborn” or “begotten” Son of God at the time of His exaltation. In Acts 13:33 Paul is very CLEAR about it.
The eternal Word became the Son.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
I asked you to use Scripture and you did. I'm impressed to see Scripture applied correctly instead of conjecture from you. You say you're keeping it simple – let me go even simpler.
You quoted:
Quote I will also APPOINT him my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail. Psalm 89:20-27 NIVDo you see the word you capitalized? Was Jesus ever said to be APPOINTED firstborn of all creation? There's is a big difference in meaning here.
Here's where we're hitting a snag. You think that because a certain word like firstborn or creation is used in the Bible one or more times with one meaning implied by the context, then EVERY time that word is used, it HAS TO BE the same meaning. That is not the case. I'm heading out to dinner now, but I will try to think of other places in the Bible where the same word is used with a different meaning.
Where's the answers to my bolded questions? And what do you think about my explanation of the word “today”? Does it make sense? Paul quotes Psalm 2:7 three times that I'm aware of. In Hebrews 5, Paul isn't even talking about Jesus being raised when he quotes it. And Heb 5:8-9 says:
Quote 8 Although he WAS a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. So he didn't apply the “being raised” part to becoming God's Son, only to becoming the high priest.
peace and love,
mikeHi Thinker,
I thought of one phrase that means two completely different things. If we were alive in Biblical times, and someone said, “Mike is at Jack's right hand.”, you would have to read the context to know what it meant. The following info is from The Watchtower:
Meaning #1
Quote The Right Hand. The right hand was considered to be of great importance, symbolically. Joseph was displeased when Jacob crossed his hands in order to lay his right hand on Ephraim, Joseph’s younger son. But Jacob did this purposely, to give Ephraim the superior blessing. (Ge 48:13-20) To be on the right hand of a ruler was to have the most important position, NEXT TO THE RULER HIMSELF (Ps 110:1; Ac 7:55, 56; Ro 8:34; 1Pe 3:22), or a position in his favor. (Mt 25:33) Jesus is spoken of in the vision of Revelation as having the seven stars of the seven congregations in his right hand. That is, all these bodies of elders have his favor and are under his full control, power, and direction.—Re 1:16, 20; 2:1. (My caps)
Meaning #2:
Quote For God to take hold of one’s right hand would strengthen that one. (Ps 73:23) Usually the right hand of a warrior was his sword-wielding hand, and it was unprotected by the shield in the left hand. Therefore, a friend would stand or fight at his right hand as an upholder and protector. This circumstance is used metaphorically with regard to God’s help and protection to those serving him.—Ps 16:8; 109:30, 31; 110:5; 121:5. There are Scriptures that say God is at Jesus' right hand, and there are Scriptures that say Jesus is at God's right hand. But they do not mean the same thing.
So the statement about you and I could mean that I was your protector, OR that you were my protector.
So the fact that God “APPOINTED” David the “firstborn” of kings OF THE EARTH, doesn't have squat to do with the fact that Jesus “IS the firstborn of all creation”.
peace and love,
mikeMike said:
Quote Was Jesus ever said to be APPOINTED firstborn of all creation?
Mike,First, David was anointed to be king and afterwards appointed as king (firstborn). Was this not prophetic of Christ? How could Christ be anointed and not also be appointed as king (firstborn) like His father David?
Second, I have already shown you from Colossians 1 that the name “firstborn” in reference to Christ means “supreme.”
Third, you failed to address my point that both David and Christ were God's “firstborn son.” This gives a clear clue that the term “firstborn son” refers to the fact that God directly chose them to be king.
David and Christ cannot both be God's “firstborn son” literally. But they both can be God's “firstborn son” in that they are HIS APPOINTED kings as opposed to being appointed by men or by being kings through mere family succession.
Mike:
Quote Here's where we're hitting a snag. You think that because a certain word like firstborn or creation is used in the Bible one or more times with one meaning implied by the context, then EVERY time that word is used, it HAS TO BE the same meaning.
First, show where I have said that the term “firstborn” or “begotten” always referred to one's office? I have distinguished Ishmael who was the firstborn by birth from Isaac who became the firstborn in rank. I showed that Esau was the firstborn by birth but lost his rights to Jacob thus making Jacob the firstborn.Second, we are discussing the terms “begotten” and “firstborn” only as they apply to Christ. I showed from Colossians chapter one that the term “firstborn” when applied to Christ means “SUPREME.”
Third, I said early on that the term “firstborn” NEVER means [first] “created.” Adam was created and not born. You were born and not created. It has reference to a son who is first born to a man by natural birth or to a man who is appointed by God regardless of the chronological order of his birth. The terms “begotten Son [of God]” or “firstborn” [of God] have nothing to do with one being created.
David was not “created” at the point He became God's “firstborn son.” Neither was he the “firstborn” of Jesse who had several sons with David being the youngest.
Therefore, the “snag” you speak of is this: You say that the terms “firstborn” or “begotten” mean “created” when this is clearly not the case
Mike:
Quote In Hebrews 5, Paul isn't even talking about Jesus being raised when he quotes it. And Heb 5:8-9 says: Although he WAS a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
You TOTALLY missed my point!
My point was that the word “begotten” refers to His becoming High priest. So how can the word mean “created?” How can the word mean “created” when it refers both to His becoming Son AND High Priest?Jesus was indeed installed as High Priest at His resurrection.
I will now answer your 7 questions. Keep in mind that you are causing our posts to get too long again.
Mike:
Quote 1. How could Jesus be raised to a more superior position than his former one if he was already God Almighty?
Fot the millionth time: Because He made Himself a servant. If you ask this question again I will give the same answer.Mike:
Quote 2. (Hebrews 1:2) How could the universe be made through God's Son if he wasn't God's Son until he was raised from the dead?
Because He had always been the Son by foreordination. When God foreordains something it is as if it is actual (Romans 4:16-17). Psalm 89 says that David would call God his Father upon His being anointed. But he did not become God's “firstborn son” UNTIL he was installed as king which was many years after he was anointed. Yet he called God “Father” before he was installed as God's firstborn son.We are NOW “called” the sons of God (1 John 3:1). But we are “eagerly AWAITING the adoption as sons” (Romans 8:23) Revelation also says that we SHALL BE (future) the sons of God (21:7).
Mike:
Quote 3. 3. (John 1:18) How did the only begotten god Jesus, who is now at the Father's side, make God known to the disciples if he wasn't begotten until he was raised from the dead?
First, the reading you give here is disputed. Some translations read thus,No one has ever seen God; the only one who is God, who is at the Father's side, He has made Him known.
Second, your rendering of “god” (small “g”) has no basis. The text says “hotheos” (“the God”).
Third, John explicitly calls Him “the Word” in His prologue. It was as “the Word” that Jesus made God known. This is why the Word came into the world; to explain God! The “Son” is what the Word became.
Mike:
Quote 4. Matthew 3:17) Why did God say, “This IS my Son, with whom I AM well pleased…” if in fact Jesus wouldn't BE His Son for three more years?
Why are we called “sons” even though we have not yet been adopted? Jesus was the Son of God by decree. But it was not until His exaltation that He became God's “begotten” Son. Maybe some commentary will help you:Quote The Father''s decree declaring the Messiah to be His Son is identified with Christ's exaltation…the declaration of redemptive sonship prophesied in Psalm 2:7 was conferred upon Him in time WHEN HE COMPLETED HIS MESSIANIC WORK (Reformation Study Bible, p. 1934) Quote The term [only begotten Son] as Calvin suggests, and as maintained by Prof. Alexander, refers here only to His being constituted King – to the act of coronation (Barnes Notes on Psalms, vol1. p. 20) Mike:
Quote 5. How can God bring His firstborn into the world if he doesn't become His firstborn until he leaves it?
This “bringing into the world” refers to His exaltation when He was brought in the world in a new and powerful way. Please note that as God's “firstborn” all the angels of God are commanded to worship Him. This is a reference to His exaltation because in the days of His flesh He was lower than the angels (Heb. 2:7).The whole passage is about Christ's exaltation.
Mike:
Quote 6. Did any person in Scripture ever say anything to corroborate what you think Paul said? Apostle, disciple, Jesus, Jehovah?
Psalm 2:7: It speaks about a FUTURE “begetting.”
2 Samuel 7:14: Future tense verbs are used, “I WILL BE a Father to Him and he SHALL BE a son to Me.”Mike:
Quote 7. How did Satan and the demons all know Jesus was the Son of God, if he wasn't yet?
Don't you think satan was aware of the declaration of the Father at the Jordan, “this is my beloved Son?”Note the Biblical disctinction:
** Before His exaltation: Jesus was the Son of God by decree. **
** After His exaltation: Jesus was actually coronated as the Firstborn Son of God in the manner of His father David. **Therefore, you have not proved and you cannot prove that the terms “begotten” and “firstborn” as they apply to Christ suggest that He came into being.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
You said:
Quote First, David was anointed to be king and afterwards appointed as king (firstborn). Was this not prophetic of Christ? How could Christ be anointed as not also be appointed as king (firstborn) like His father David? Are Jesus and David equal? They are two different people with two different sets of circumstances. Was God prophesying that Jesus would be a king of the earth like David?
You said:
Quote Second, I have already shown you from Colossians 1 that the name “firstborn” in reference to Christ means “supreme.” No where in the Bible does Paul say or even imply, “When I say “firstborn”, I mean “supreme”. He implies that BECAUSE Jesus is the firstborn of God, he is supreme, nothing more.
You said:
Quote Third, you failed to address my point that both David and Christ were God's “firstborn son.” This gives a clear clue that the term “firstborn son” refers to the fact that God directly chose them to be king. God appointed David as the firstborn of His kings of the earth. Saul was the first physical king of His people on earth. He pulled His love from Saul and gave “firstborn rights” to David as far as kings of the earth go. And He promised to never take His love away from David, as He did Saul. David isn't called the firstborn of all creation, only Jesus is.
You said:
Quote David was not “created” at the point He became God's “firstborn son.” Where is David called God's “firstborn son”? Besides, like I said, David was appointed, Jesus actually was the firstborn of all creation.
You said:
Quote You TOTALLY missed my point! My point was that the word “begotten” refers to His becoming High priest. So how can the word mean “created?” How can the word mean “created” when it refers both to His becoming Son AND High Priest? Pure conjecture.
You said:
Quote Jesus was indeed installed as High Priest at His resurrection. 1 Peter 1 says:
Quote 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. Jesus, who was the Son of God since before the universe was created according to Paul and John was also apparently already annointed as high priest before the creation of the world. And look at verse 21. It doesn't say we believe in him AS God, but we believe in God THROUGH him. And our faith and hope are in GOD.
You said:
Quote I will now answer your 7 questions. Keep in mind that you are causing our posts to get too long again. Well, if you would answer them as I ask them, this wouldn't happen, would it?
Question #1. What I'm asking (and you know it, but are being evasive) is: If Jesus was already the most superior being in existence before he became flesh, how could he have “became as much superior to the angels as the name he has INHERITED is superior to theirs”? Wouldn't he have already been the most superior to the angels that any person can be? How could he then BECOME more superior to them? Try again.
2. You said:
Quote Because He had always been the Son by foreordination. So from the very beginning, Jesus was the inferior one of the three in your Godhead? He was ALWAYS the Son and Jehovah was ALWAYS the Father, but only by foreordination?
Okay, as long as you're admitting that Jesus has always been the Son and Jehovah has always been the Father.You said:
Quote We are NOW “called” the sons of God (1 John 3:1). But we are “eagerly AWAITING the adoption as sons” (Romans 8:23) Revelation also says that we SHALL BE (future) the sons of God (21:7).
All men are “sons of God”. He is our creator and Father. But we do not yet live face to face with Him, do we? That is the hope Paul said we eagerly await.3. You said:
Quote First, the reading you give here is disputed. Older manuscripts read thus, No one has ever seen God; the only one who is God, who is at the Father's side, He has made Him known.
Second, your rendering of “god” (small “g”) has no basis. The text says “hotheos” (“the God”).
Third, John explicitly calls Him “the Word” in His prologue. It was as “the Word” that Jesus made God known.
“the only one who is God, who is at the Father's side….” If he is the ONLY one who is God, who is this Father he is at the side of? Oh, right…God is plural. We'll get to that later. Big or little g, it doesn't matter. Now you say John didn't really mean begotten? Okay, did Jesus really mean begotten in John 3:16? Jehovah wasn't begotten. He wasn't even given the “office position” of begotten, was He?
And in your “third”, you say John didn't mean what he said again? He said theos as you pointed out, but now you say he meant “the Word” was the one who made God known to us. So what? The Word=Jesus=Son of God=God's Christ=Lamb of God=King of kings=Lord of lords. Doesn't matter which name you call him, he is still the one who is not God, but made God known to us.
4. I don't care how many people you quote that say what you want to hear. God says “this IS my Son”, period. He does not allude to the fact that Jesus “will be” my Son. Take the Scriptures for what they say, man.
5. Again with the “it says this, but really means that” defense. Couldn't it mean that as the Spirit impregnated Mary, God told the angels to worship him because of the righteous journey he had embarked on at the command of God? Again, take the Scriptures for what they
say.6. You answered with 2 Samuel 7, which says:
Quote 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men When did Jesus do wrong? No matter though. Even though this is about Solomon, Paul attributes it to Jesus, so I have to deal with that. Even though I'm sure Paul was just enforcing his Psalm 2:7 quote that Jesus was in fact the Son of God, I will explain how it still works even for what you assert.
We'll use your business analogy. My board of directors are suggesting I place some executive as my successor. I tell them, “The one who replaces me will be my son. I will be the father of the one who replaces me.” Now, my son is already alive and well and working for the company, but the wording I used still works. I'm not saying, when he takes over for me, then he will somehow turn into my son. He already is my son. And as far as Psalm 2:7, it is nothing but conjecture that this applies to the future, just as it is my conjecture that it applies to the first words Jesus ever heard.
7. Satan and the demons knew Jesus to be the Son of God. They very plainly said we know who you are, the Son of God.
You said:
Quote Therefore, you have not proved and you cannot prove that the terms “begotten” and “firstborn” as they apply to Christ suggest that He came into being. I never set out to prove anything. I read the words as they are written for what they actually mean. You are the one speculating they mean something different. You, my friend are the one with the burden of proof since you are the one who is trying to say “black” means “white”. And so far, you have provided nothing to prove they mean anything other that what they say. Are you ready to give up and move to the next point?
peace and love,
mikethethinker said:
Quote First, David was anointed to be king and afterwards appointed as king (firstborn). Was this not prophetic of Christ? How could Christ be anointed as not also be appointed as king (firstborn) like His father David? Mike replied:
Quote Are Jesus and David equal? They are two different people with two different sets of circumstances. Was God prophesying that Jesus would be a king of the earth like David?
Mike,You did not deal with the substance of my question. David was appointed as God's “firstborn [son].” Jesus is also the “firstborn” Son of God. Did David pre-exist the title “firstborn [son].”
Mike:
Quote No where in the Bible does Paul say or even imply, “When I say “firstborn”, I mean “supreme”. He implies that BECAUSE Jesus is the firstborn of God, he is supreme, nothing more.
Man is this a weak reply! Again you have failed to address the substance of what I am saying. Of course Jesus is supreme because He is firstborn. But HOW did He become the firstborn? Was it by appointment like His father David? Or was it by coming into being?Your choking dude!
Mike:
Quote God appointed David as the firstborn of His kings of the earth. Saul was the first physical king of His people on earth. He pulled His love from Saul and gave “firstborn rights” to David as far as kings of the earth go.
So what! David was appointed the firstborn [son] of God. Furthermore, the throne of David was Jehovah's throne:1 Kings 2:12:12 Then Solomon sat on the throne of HIS FATHER DAVID; and his kingdom was firmly established.
1 Chronicles 29:23:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of JEHOVAH as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
David's throne was Jehovah's throne whether in heaven or on earth. David was the firstborn son of God who reigned then and Jesus is the firstborn Son who reigns now
Mike said:
Quote He pulled His love from Saul and gave “firstborn rights” to David….
And God gave firstborn son rights to Jesus too.You are helping me out here more than you think. We both know that if you lose this point the debate is over. This is why you are clinging for dear life. You could just go on to the next point and spare yourself.
Mike:
Quote Where is David called God's “firstborn son”?
You are not content to just dig a hole for yourself and fall into it. You must throw yourself into the hole. What do you think God meant when He said that I will appoint David “My Firstborn?” A man's firstborn is a son.
You said in your opening post to this debate that you want to learn. But your baby drivel comments above prove otherwise.
Mike:
Quote Besides, like I said, David was appointed, Jesus actually was the firstborn of all creation.
No! It was I who said that David was appointed as God's firstborn and you concurred. And if David was “appointed” as God's firstborn then it stands to reason that Jesus was also “appointed as God's Firstborn. You cannot demonstrate that Jesus was not. Show where God changed His method Mike. Show that David was “appointed” as the “firstborn” but Christ His offspring was made “firstborn” by being created.Your conclusion is your presupposition. This is a logical fallacy called “circular reasoning.”
thethinker said:
Quote You TOTALLY missed my point! My point was that the word “begotten” refers to His becoming High priest. So how can the word mean “created?” How can the word mean “created” when it refers both to His becoming Son AND High Priest? Mike replied:
Quote Pure conjecture.
Oh Yeah?So also Christ did not glorify Himself to BECOME HIGH PRIEST, but it was He who said to Him:
“ You are My Son, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.”
The apostle CLEARLY puts Christ's becoming High priest and Son as at the SAME POINT IN TIME. Therefore, the term “begotten” does not mean that He came into being.
Mike:
Quote 1 Peter 1 says:
20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.Jesus, who was the Son of God since before the universe was created according to Paul and John was also apparently already annointed as high priest before the creation of the world. And look at verse 21. It doesn't say we believe in him AS God, but we believe in God THROUGH him. And our faith and hope are in GOD.
First, Paul did not say that Jesus was created. Your reasoning is circular and your defintions are not biblically based.Second, Peter also said that Jesus is God:
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1:1
Mike:
Quote Question #1. What I'm asking (and you know it, but are being evasive) is: If Jesus was already the most superior being in existence before he became flesh, how could he have “became as much superior to the angels as the name he has INHERITED is superior to theirs”? Wouldn't he have already been the most superior to the angels that any person can be? How could he then BECOME more superior to them? Try again.
I am not being evasive. You are being obstinate. I said in my last pos
t that Jesus “made Himself a servant” and that He was made a “little lower than the angels.”You may need to buy some Q Tips to clean your ears.
Mike:
Quote Okay, as long as you're admitting that Jesus has always been the Son and Jehovah has always been the Father.
I am not at all admitting that Jesus has always been the Son of God. He was the Son of God by foreordination. Don't put words into my mouth. The prophecy in 2 Samuel 7:14 CLEARLY says, “I WILL BE a Father to him and he SHALL BE a Son to me.” Hebrews chapter one applies this prophecy to Christ's exaltation when it was fulfilled.Mike:
Quote All men are “sons of God”. He is our creator and Father. But we do not yet live face to face with Him, do we? That is the hope Paul said we eagerly await.
You just keep dodging the point. So what if all men are the sons of God (which all men are not)? The point is that they are called sons NOW even though they have NOT YET RECEIVED the adoption as sons. So Christ was “called” Son even though He was not “begotten” until His exaltation.Mike:
Quote 4. I don't care how many people you quote that say what you want to hear. God says “this IS my Son”, period.
God also said that Cyrus “IS My shepherd” almost 150 years BEFORE Cyrus was born. I will give you the NWT inwhich you trust:the One saying of Cyrus, ‘He IS my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out’; even in [my] saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘You will have your foundation laid…..This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: Isaiah 44:28-5:1
Did you notice that God said that “Cyrus IS My shepherd” and that “I HAVE taken him by the right hand?” Cyrus had not been born yet dude! He came almost 150 years AFTER this prophecy was given.
You need to acquaint yourself with ancient Hebrew thought. When Peter said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” he knew that Jesus was the [foreordained[/i] Son of God who had come to fulfill the scriptures. Jesus could not have been installed as the officiating Son UNTIL He had indeed fulfilled the scriptures.
Jesus was the ETERNAL WORD made Son in time at His exaltation!
Jesus was the Son of God by foreordination which meant that He was Son in the mind of God. But the prophecies of His being “begotten” were not fulfilled UNTIL His exaltation when He was actually installed as Son. The apostles are clear ABOUT this!
Mike said:
Quote Now you say John didn't really mean begotten? Okay, did Jesus really mean begotten in John 3:16?
I simply said that the reading “begotten” is disputed. For John 1:18 there are many translations which say “the only God” or the “only God who is at at the Father's side”. And John 3:16 is read simply “only Son” in may translations.Mike:
Quote Jehovah wasn't begotten. He wasn't even given the “office position” of begotten, was He?
Referring to Christ's resurrection Acts 13:133 in the NIV reads, “TODAY I have become your Father.” God became Christ's Father AT HIS RESURRECTION. Again, the apostles are CLEAR about this!thethinker said:
Quote This “bringing into the world” refers to His exaltation when He was brought in the world in a new and powerful way. Please note that as God's “firstborn” all the angels of God are commanded to worship Him. This is a reference to His exaltation because in the days of His flesh He was lower than the angels (Heb. 2:7). Mike replied:
Quote Again with the “it says this, but really means that” defense.
The problem is that the passage does not say what YOU think it says. It says, “When he AGAIN BRINGS His Firstborn into the world:New King James Version: 6 But when He again AGAIN BRINGS the firstborn into the world, He says: “ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
New World translation: 6 But when he AGAIN BRINGS his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
There it is Mikeman! The New World Translation which YOU TRUST says, “When He AGAIN BRINGS His Firstborn into the world” speaking of another bringing into the world. But this time He comes into the world as God's “firstborn.” So the passage does not support your theory that Jesus was God's “firstborn” BEFORE His exaltation or that He came into being.
The passage speaks CLEARLY about His exaltation. The angels of God are commanded to do “obeisance” (NWT). Jesus was lower than the angels in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 2:7). Come on!
As far as I am concerned you have lost the debate. I am claiming the victory. It would serve you well to do your homework before you hastily run off another post which will contain your long held beliefs that you cannot substantiate. But if you want to keep this up and embarrass yourself even more I will gladly oblige you.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
You can taunt, insult and ridicule me all you want. It's childish and counterprodutive IMO, but to each his own.
You say I didn't deal with the substance of your questions.
About David: He was APPOINTED the firstborn of Jehovah's kings of the earth. Jehovah had many kings over Israel and Judah. Saul was the first physical king, but Jehovah revoked his stature as the firstborn of His kings of the earth, and APPOINTED David that position. He never appointed David the firstborn son of the earth position. I'm guessing that would go to Adam, Abraham or Moses before it went to David. But it doesn't matter, because he didn't appoint David as firstborn son, but firstborn of His kings of the earth.
Christ, on the other hand, was never said to be APPOINTED as God's firstborn Son. He was begotten/created before the universe was created. That's what the Scriptures say, my friend. You are the one trying to give a different definition to what is very plainly stated. You are the one who is saying that when the Bible says “begotten” concerning Jesus, it doesn't mean the same thing as all the other “begottens” in the Scriptures. And as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of them. And you give two Scriptures to back your claim:
1. Acts 13:32-33
Quote 32″We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” 'You are my Son;
today I have become your FatherI've already showed you Acts 9:20 that says:
Quote Acts 9:20 NIV
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.And I've explained that when Paul quotes Psalm 2:7, the word “today” is already in the Psalm and he just doesn't exclude it. He is simply quoting Scripture word for word, not implying when Jesus was begotten. The point he is trying to get across is that Jesus is in fact the Son of God, not when Jesus was begotten. I've also explained that the promise that God fulfilled by raising Jesus is that He has now provided the one through whom He would save us. (Acts 13:23, 26, 27, 32 – All of which I quoted for you) You can believe that Paul is saying Jesus was begotten when he was raised, but you cannot support that belief with Scripture. That makes it conjecture.
2. 2 Samuel 7:14
Quote
I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.This prophecy was originally made about King Solomon. 1 Chronicles 22 makes that clear:
Quote 6 Then he called for his son Solomon and charged him to build a house for the LORD, the God of Israel. 7 David said to Solomon: “My son, I had it in my heart to build a house for the Name of the LORD my God. 8 But this word of the LORD came to me: 'You have shed much blood and have fought many wars. You are not to build a house for my Name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in my sight. 9 But you WILL have a son who WILL be a man of peace and rest, and I WILL give him rest from all his enemies on every side. His name WILL be Solomon, and I WILL grant Israel peace and quiet during his reign. 10 He is the one who WILL build a house for my Name. He WILL be my son, and I WILL be his father. And I WILL establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.' When Jehovah prophecied this about King Solomon, he had not been born yet. Therefore all the “WILLS”. And when it was first prophecied, it included “when he does wrong”, because it was meant for Solomon. Later, when it applies to Jesus, the “when he does wrong” is not applicable, because Jesus was without sin. Neither does the “His name will be Solomon” apply to Jesus. So the “he will BECOME my Son” part doesn't necessarily have to apply to Jesus, either. It could, but it doesn't have to.
So when I balance the “could be's” in 2 Samuel 7 against the “absolutely's” of Jehovah, Jesus, apostles, disciples and demons all saying that Jesus was the Son of God while he was on earth, I will go with what they say and oppose your opinion that they “knew by Spirit that he would become the Son of God when he was raised”.
And when I balance Paul's statement in Hebrews 1:2 that he was the Son before the universe was created, against your opinion that Paul “meant” something else when he said that, again I have to go with Scripture.
As far as the rest of your last post, there are only two things I want to point out:
1. You have still never answered with a simple yes or no to my question: Was Jehovah begotten – even as an “office”? So I will answer it for you – NO. Not ever. So much for equality.
2. You are right about it saying, “When he AGAIN brings His firstborn into the world…” But that just makes things worse for you. We are only told about the first time Jesus was in the world and the “second coming” which has yet to happen. So if we can assume the angels will do obeisance to him at his second coming (because “all knees will bow”), that means he was already the firstborn at his first coming – while he was on earth.
You set out to prove that Jesus was begotten when he was raised from the dead. And that “begotten” only refers to his “office or position”. You have done neither. You have not shown me one Scripture that directly states either one of these things. You have not shown any Scriptures that state that when Jehovah, Jesus, demons and apostles all knew Jesus to be the Son of God on earth, it was only because the spirit was showing them things to come. You have relied on pure conjecture, my friend. In fact, the only ones on earth who didn't believe Jesus when he said he was the Son of God (not GOING TO BE the Son of God) were the non-believing Jews and Pharisees who wanted him killed. You are playing for the wrong team, brother. Don't let Jesus say to you, “Look, your house is left to you desolate.”
The next point of discussion should be easy. All you have to do is prove to me that being at someone's right hand means equality with that person.
peace and love,
mikeHi thinker,
Sorry to doulble post, but I just thought of one more person who thought Jesus was the Son of God while on earth.
Quote Matthew 27:54 NIV
When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”peace and love,
mikeMike said:
Quote He never appointed David the firstborn son of the earth position. I'm guessing that would go to Adam, Abraham or Moses before it went to David.
Mike,Your “firstborn son of the earth” explanation in reference to David is hogwash! It was a matter of his being appointed firstborn son to Jehovah's throne.
20 I have found My servant David;
With My holy oil I have anointed him,
21 With whom My hand shall be established;
Also My arm shall strengthen him….26 He shall cry to Me, ‘You are my Father,
My God, and the rock of my salvation.’
27 Also I will make him My firstborn,
The highest of the kings of the earth.Again, David was God's firsdtborn to the throne of Jehovah. So was Jesus. Whether it had reference to heaven or earth is totally non-relevant.
Mike:
Quote Christ, on the other hand, was never said to be APPOINTED as God's firstborn Son. He was begotten/created before the universe was created. That's what the Scriptures say, my friend.
The scriptures do NOT say that Jesus was created. They say He was “begotten” and not created. The apostles CLEARLY say that He was begotten AT HIS RESURRECTION AND EXALTATION:33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘ You are My Son,
TODAY I have begotten You.What part of this of you not understand? Even if He had been “begotten” before creation would not prove that He was created because “begotten” never means “created.”
You say that Christ was “never appointed.” But Psalms 2 disagrees with you. It says:
6 “Yet I have SET My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
TODAY I have begotten You.Was Christ “set” King before creation? No! He was “set” King AT HIS EXALTATION. This is when He was “begotten.”
Mike:
Quote I've already showed you Acts 9:20 that says: Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus had already been exalted when Paul said that. So how does it prove that He was “begotten” before His exaltation?Mike:
Quote And I've explained that when Paul quotes Psalm 2:7, the word “today” is already in the Psalm and he just doesn't exclude it. He is simply quoting Scripture word for word, not implying when Jesus was begotten.
Nonsense! He is quoting that part of the Psalm which applied to Christ's resurrection. Again, nonsense!Mike:
Quote This prophecy was originally made about King Solomon.
When Jehovah prophecied this about King Solomon, he had not been born yet. Therefore all the “WILLS”. And when it was first prophecied, it included “when he does wrong”, because it was meant for Solomon. Later, when it applies to Jesus, the “when he does wrong” is not applicable, because Jesus was without sin.
Of course the part about sinning did not apply to Jesus. The part that did apply is recorded in Hebrews one. It is the part which says, “I WILL BE a Father to Him and he SHALL BE a son to Me.”5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I WILL BE to him a Father, and he SHALL BE to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:5-6
There it is! The apostle quoted that part of the prophecy which applied to Christ. It was the part, “I WILL BE a father and He SHALL BE a son.” If Jesus had been God's Son from creation, then the future verbs make no sense
You are dancing your way around the apostolic teachings.
Mike:
Quote So when I balance the “could be's” in 2 Samuel 7 against the “absolutely's” of Jehovah, Jesus, apostles, disciples and demons all saying that Jesus was the Son of God while he was on earth, I will go with what they say and oppose your opinion that they “knew by Spirit that he would become the Son of God when he was raised”.
Paul said also that jesus was the rock that followed the people in the wilderness. He said that the rock was “the Christ.” Was Jesus actually the Christ in the old testament? No! Jesus had to be born and be anointed and win the victory before he could become the Christ.Paul also said that Christ Jesus “came into the world” to save sinners.” Was Jesus the Christ before He was born and annointed and won the victory? No! Peter said that God made Jesus the Christ AT HIS EXALTATION:
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.”
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
There it is! Jesus was made both Lord and Christ WHEN He ascended to God's throne. Up until then He was accepted as the Christ because He demonstrated that He was indeed the One who would fulfill all prophecy regarding the Christ. But He had not been installed as the Christ UNTIL HE COMPLETED HIS WORK. The same is true with His being the Son of God. He was accepted by men as the Son with the anticipation that He was the appointed one who would fulfill the scriptures. But He was no more installed as Son before His exaltation then He was installed as the Christ before His exaltation. He had to first complete His work.
Mike:
Quote 1. You have still never answered with a simple yes or no to my question: Was Jehovah begotten – even as an “office”? So I will answer it for you – NO. Not ever. So much for equality.
I have answered you. I said that the Eternal Word became Son. But you don't like my reply and accuse me of not answering.Mike:
Quote 2. You are right about it saying, “When he AGAIN brings His firstborn into the world…” But that just makes things worse for you. We are only told about the first time Jesus was in the world and the “second coming” which has yet to happen. So if we can assume the angels will do obeisance to him at his second coming (because “all knees will bow”), that means he was already the firstborn at his first coming – while he was on earth.
First, The passage is NOT speaking about His second coming. It was speaking about His EXALTATION to His Father's right hand. The “coming” here has reference to His presence through the Holy Spirit. You believe that at His second coming He is made subject again. So how can this passage be about His second coming?Second, It says that it is as God's “firstborn” that the angels are commanded to worship Him. In the days of His flesh He was LOWER than the angels (2:7). Therefore, he could not have acguired the name “firstborn.” It could not be more clear!
Third, It CLEARLY says that it was “BY INHERITANCE” that He acquired the name “Firstborn.” Did you get that Mike? It says that He acquired the name “BY INHERITANCE” and not by being created.
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, TODAY have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
There you go Mikeman! It CLEARLY says that He obtained the name “firstborn Son” BY INHERITANCE. So even if the “begetting” is before the creation as you say it is by inheritance” that He is called the “Firstborn Son.” It is not by His coming into being Mike that Jesus acquired the name “Firstborn Son.”
thinker
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2010,17:56) Hi thinker, Sorry to doulble post, but I just thought of one more person who thought Jesus was the Son of God while on earth.
Quote Matthew 27:54 NIV
When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”peace and love,
mike
You have not been hearing me Mike. I have been trying to tell you that the expression “Today I have begotten You” refers to the day when Jesus was officially installed as God's “Firstborn.”Beofore this He was the Son only by name. He did not acquire the office of the Firstborn UNTIL His exaltation.
Before His exaltation: He was called the Son of God.
Upon His exaltation: He was installed to the office of Son. This is the day that He was “begotten.”
We are called sons of God now. But we are “eagerly awaiting the [actual] adoption as sons.”
Listen Mike!
thinker
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