Mikeboll64 vs francis

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 13 2011,05:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2011,07:21) 'elohiym 1) (plural)   1a) rulers, judges   1b) divine ones   1c) angels   1d) gods 2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)   2a) god, goddess   2b) godlike one   2c) works or special possessions of God     2d) the (true) God   2e) God Know of what you speak, young Dennison.  “God” with a capital “G” is only two of the nine definitions given for the word above.  And even then, it still simply means “ruler” or “judge”.  It was used of humans, angels, Jesus, and the Omniscient Being Who Created All. peace and love, mike Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16) Your Definition and contentions that “Elohim” is only a Title and only means “Rulers or Judge” Is a fallacy, D, how can you honestly even say “it's a fallacy” when the green words above are staring you right in the face?    I didn't make this up, this info is from Biblical scholars. Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16) The Title is a fullfiled role that can be used as a Identity instead of just a title. With this I agree wholeheartedly.  But because the word “elohim” was used to IDENTIFY the only Omniscient Being does not mean the word stops meaning “judge/ruler”.  Nor does it mean that anyone who is called by this title IS the only Omniscient Being.  Nor does it mean that others who are called by this title are “false judges” or “imposter rulers”. Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16) Your Logic and Definition would obstruct the View of Genesis1:1 Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Who created the heavens and the Earth? According to your logic MANY are called “Elohim” so out of this MANY, who is the one who created the heavens in the earth, and HOW could you know? And that is a great point D.  How DID they know when “elohim” referred to the Omniscient Being and when it didn't?  CONTEXT, my friend.  How do we know the Judge who was mentioned in Gen 1:1 was the Omniscient Being and not some other judge?  Because enough scriptures specifically mention this particular Judge by His name, YHVH, in referrence to creation.  Also, CONTEXT.  How many judges do you think there are who created the universe and everything in it?  I know of only One.  So obviously, the Judge mentioned in Gen 1:1 is THAT ONE. Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 12 2011,17:16) Obviously the Writer used “Elohim” as a Identity and not solely a title. Again, I agree in the case of Gen 1:1………AND MANY OTHERS.  But it is the CONTEXT that instructs us as to which mention of “elohim” is identifying YHVH………..not the word “elohim” itself.  For the word “elohim” simply means “judge(s)/ruler(s)”.  And the word “elohim” by itself does not tell us we are reading about the Omniscient Being……….the CONTEXT does that. In other words, just as all that glitters is not gold, all who are called elohim are not YHVH.   D, pay close attention to my forthcoming post to Francis.  If you are honest and willing to accept the truth of the matter – even when it interferes with your hardcore beliefs – you will learn from it. peace and love to you my young friend, mike

You see mike,
This is why clarifying things MAKES SENSE, and makes debating alot easier.

Quote

D, how can you honestly even say “it's a fallacy” when the green words above are staring you right in the face?    I didn't make this up, this info is from Biblical scholars.

Its fallacy is present when you state that every time the word “elohim” is used, it simply means “judge” or “ruler” when we all know that it also used to present the Identity of a “supreme being” because thats what the bible teaches.

Quote

With this I agree wholeheartedly.  But because the word “elohim” was used to IDENTIFY the only Omniscient Being does not mean the word stops meaning “judge/ruler”.  Nor does it mean that anyone who is called by this title IS the only Omniscient Being.  Nor does it mean that others who are called by this title are “false judges” or “imposter rulers”.

Every interpretation of a word or title is based on context, reference, and subject.   Many were called “gods” mike, such as “baal” “ceaser” “satan” and “Zeus” but like God said in Deut. 32 that there is such a thing as “False Gods” “Strange gods” “devils”.
They were never gods to begin with.  So you would have to be specific in every reference of the word “elohim” and how the context specifies it.  Thats why when “judges” are used instead of “God” because it was clear they were NOT God.
So there is no other gods but God mike.

Quote

And that is a great point D.  How DID they know when “elohim” referred to the Omniscient Being and when it didn't?  CONTEXT, my friend.  How do we know the Judge who was mentioned in Gen 1:1 was the Omniscient Being and not some other judge?  Because enough scriptures specifically mention this particular Judge by His name, YHVH, in referrence to creation.  Also, CONTEXT.  How many judges do you think there are who created the universe and everything in it?  I know of only One.  So obviously, the Judge mentioned in Gen 1:1 is THAT ONE.

Of Course mike! and im GLAD very glad you mentioned that.
AS you stated by context we receive the correct interpretation of this scripture.  Discerning by using other scriptures.
Here is the thing, you claim that there
are “many gods” but none of them have ever created the heavens and the Earth!
none of them, not moses, not david, not satan, not any other person or thing!

Execpt of course Christ.
According to other Scriptures, that you do not deny, that Christ Created.  So its clear the “Omnsicient Being” that created in heavens and the earth was identified as Christ in the NT.  So Christ is given the Title of “Elohim” because he fullfilled that role, like no other.  
There is no RANK according to God, he is above everything, and in everything.

Quote

Again, I agree in the case of Gen 1:1………AND MANY OTHERS.  But it is the CONTEXT that instructs us as to which mention of “elohim” is identifying YHVH………..not the word “elohim” itself.  For the word “elohim” simply means “judge(s)/ruler(s)”.  And the word “elohim” by itself does not tell us we are reading about the Omniscient Being……….the CONTEXT does that. In other words, just as all that glitters is not gold, all who are called elohim are not YHVH.

El, Elohim are used to identify a supreme being, the greeks “Unknown God”
IF Elohim was used in the beginning of scripture without much context until much later, than it implies that the Writer spoke of solely one “Omniscient being” that reveled himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  That only ONE ever Existed.

Mike, Here is the gist of it.
We both understand that that intepretation of “Elohim” depends on context, and analyzing scripture with scripture.
You agree that Jesus is called God, but excuse it as only a “title”.
You stated that Jesus is “A God amoung gods” “the second most powerful being”
Which is the disagreement that we are debating about.

MY simple Point is that one cannot be God unless he reaches the requirements of being a “Supreme being”, which goes beyond the titleship and into Identity.

Its like treating a Dog, humanlike, but in fact its not a human.
Many men were treated like gods and worshipped as such, but they died like fallen princes, because they were never gods.

Jesus of course meets all the requierments that makes a True God.
Fact is that there is only ONE GOD, and thats clear from scripture.
Jesus is either God, or not at all.  There is no excuse for limiting him to just a title, because all his works proves otherwise.

Here is the other problem that You only define “Elohim” as “Judge” and “Ruler” in reference to anything else but YHVH.
You make that claim, but you would have to prove it.
You state that “Jesus is only as much as God as Satan is the god of this age”
1. Your first fallacy, is that your argueing title vs title. which is not what we are argueing. We are claiming that Jesus is God by Identity.
2. Your second fallacy, is that “theos” does not have the same meaning as “elohim” in Preeminent results.
For example 2 Corinthians 4:4 – which is the evidence you use to present that Satan is a god, yet in the very same verse Christ is described as the literal image of God.

In other words, the verse is saying that “the false god Satan is blinding unbelievers from the glorious good news about Christ the one true God (image of God)” IMO
blinding the minds from seeing God, and how do you see God?
The Image which is CHrist.

Satan is not a god of anything.
3. Is that you deny the Divinity of Jesus by stating its Just a Title. You would have to prove how its solely just a title and not Divine.

Anyways, To be honest… i lost my train of thought.. im very tired.
Anyways you DONT have to respond, because i know your busy with Francis, and i wont hold it against you.
Butttttt You didnt have to respond in the first place because we are simply commenting on your debate which is exciting and fruitful.
But we did in fact debate with others on here, so whatever.

im tired night

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,03:44)

Keith said: Quote The Bible is the Biography of God and yet Jesus takes claim to them speaking of him!!!

Wow.. you said simply in a sentence that i been trying to say in my many “everything in the speed of light” or “Lightening posts”

Nice.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2011,19:01)

Keith, I don't really care about your ad hominems.  I just find it funny that you take it so much to heart and yet do the same thing to others.  By the way, just to set the record straight, YOU started the “hiding” thing by claiming I had t8 move this thread BECAUSE I WAS HIDING.

Hi Mike

If you are going to quote me quote me right! This is what I said…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2011,08:07)

Most do not realize I created this thread in the debates thread and I don't know for sure but apparently Mike requested to t8 to move the thread because it is a distraction. Huh? What have you got to hide Mike and how is it a distraction since it is a completely different thread. Shouldn’t it be in the same category so others can see the responses? What about this Mike?

Where in my statement did I say you were hiding?

I said…What have you got to hide Mike..

There is a big difference in that satement than you beating your chest and saying that we are hiding from you.

WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Keith,

If you have not visited “Does God procreate” lately please see my post today there. JA and Mike were at it again misrepresenting the scriptures regarding Christ.

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2011,10:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2011,18:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2011,10:06) Mike Did any of those Judges sit at the right hand of the Father? Were any of those judges there in eternity with the Father and created all things with their hands? Did any of those Judges have all authority and power and judgment? Keith, WERE THEY REAL OR NOT? mike Hi Mike They were real human beings who were judges and not gods Mike! WJ

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2011,19:46)

Hi Keith, I agree with you.  They WERE real “elohim”……..who were NOT YHVH.  And you can't even play the word game with “god”, because the Hebrews had no word “god” in their language.

No kidding Mike! Seriously are you making this stuff up as you go along? Of course the Hebrews had a word for “god” it is “”el”,  or “elohim”!

Open your eyes Mike the English translation of the word “elohim” is “god” judges, and rulers etc, depending on its context.

Context determines the meaning of words for instance in English if I say “I picked up the package and it was “Light””, then it is obvious I am not saying the package is the stuff that comes from fire or the sun called “Light”.

Since we know the scriptures you are talking about in context are men and not God or “a god” then it is translated “judges” for that is what they are. All the attributes or characteristics of what defines a judge determined why they translated it “Judges” and not “God” or “a god” whether it is false gods or idols of men. Just as all the characteristics of the package are not heavy as opposed to being the bright sun rays.

In reference to Jesus the “elohim” and “theos” is translated “God” because Jesus has all the attributes and characteristics of being God including being with the Father in the beginning of all things as the Word that was with God and was God and by or through whom all things were created and without whom “nothing came into existence”! (John 1:1-3 – John 1:10 – Col 1:16, 17 – Heb 1:1-10)

In fact Paul in context of Col 1:16, 17 says that by him (Jesus) all things “consist”. That is a characteristic that only “The God' has.

The translators are smart enough to put together those scriptures with these…

“Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, and spreading out the earth ALL ALONE.” Is 44:24 KJV

This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, “stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF”, laying out the earth. “Who was with me? Isa 44:24 NWT

Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the HEAVEN ALONE, and established the earth. Isa 44:24 Lexicon

The Apostles and the Translators also considered that Jehovah said there is “no God” beside him…  

I am the LORD, and “THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME“: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that “THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME“. I am the LORD, and “THERE IS NONE ELSE“. Isa 45:5, 6  

I am Jehovah, and “THERE IS NO ONE ELSE”. With the exception of me “THERE IS NO GOD. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me, 6 in order that people may know from the rising of the sun and from its setting that “THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME. I am Jehovah, and “THERE IS NO ONE ELSE”. Isa 45: 5, 6

5 For I am the Lord God, and “there is NO OTHER GOD BESIDE ME”; I strengthened thee, and thou hast not known me. 6 That they that come from the east and they that come from the west may know that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ME”. I am the Lord God, and “THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”.  Isa 45:5, 6 LXX

So we see God alone, by himself is God and there is no other beside him who created all things.

So the Apostle John knew this and by the Spirit of Revelation reveals to us that the “Word was with God and was God”. Paul reveals to us the same thing. So the Translators also know this and translate the word “Theos” with the capitol “G” in reference to Jesus who also said he is “One” with the Father.

The problem you have Mike is you have to discard or change the literal meaning of the scriptures to reconcile your theology. The JW translators do not even realize that they have contradicted themselves with their own translation that says there is no “other God beside him and by himself he created all things ” and yet puts “a god” next to him in John 1:1-3. The only way to reconcile these scriptures is to realize that God is plural and that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One God that shares the same essence or that which makes God, God.

In other words the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit share all the attributes or characteristics of the “One True God” .

So here are some questions for you Mike.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Duplicate post!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 12 2011,18:34)

Still, I see you struggling to say 'Only True God' as if you can't understand that 'True' implies others that are not True.

Hi JA

No not at all. The problem with your statement is the word “true” does not stand alone in defining God. In other words the scriptures do not say that the father is a “true” God among others.

You are leaving out some important words.

The scriptures say there is “ONLY ONE” TRUE GOD!

What does “ONLY” AND “ONE” DO TO THE WORD “TRUE”?

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2011,19:46)

So in Hebrew terminology, what you're saying is that they were REAL judges who were not to be confused with the Judge of judges.

Mike I never said any such thing. There you go adding words in my mouth.

But even if you define it that way, who is the “Judge of Judges” at this time Mike? Who has all the attributes of the Judge of Judges?

You just recently said that the “Hebrews” didn't have the word “God”, but now you are saying they had a word “judge”.  

You cannot get around the fact that it doesn't matter if the word was Judge, god, ruler or whatever title you give it.

When the scritpures says there is “Only One True God” it is not speaking of judges, rulers but of the “One True God”.

And even if you said it should be “rulers or judges” as I have shown you if the scriptures said (which they do not) that there is “Only One True Judge or ruler” then that would mean no other could be a “true judge or ruler”.

The simple meaning of words do not seem to matter to you Mike. In fact you admitted just that…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:49)

No Keith, it is YOU who has “lost the debate” by insisting “only true God” must be taken literally.

Think about what you just said…

But then you also said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35)

Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.

If he is not One God with the Father then you are teaching Polytheism and a contradiction to the scriptures that says “There is no God beside him”.

It goes back to the attributes and characteristics of what makes God, God, or what makes it simply a judge or a ruler or a so-called god.

Blessings WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

WJ wrote:

Quote

No kidding Mike! Seriously are you making this stuff up as you go along? Of course the Hebrews had a word for “god” it is “”el”,  or “elohim”! Open your eyes Mike the English translation of the word “elohim” is “god” judges, and rulers etc, depending on its context. Context determines the meaning of words for intance in English if I say “I picked up the package and it was “Light””, then it is obvious I am not saying the package is the stuff that comes from fire or the sun called “Light”. Since we know the scriptures you are talking about in context are men and not God or “a god” then it is translated “judges” for that is what they are. All the attributes or characteristics of what defines a judge determined why they translated it “Judges” and not “God” or “a god” whether it is false gods or idols of men. Just as all the characteristics of the package is not heavy as opposed to being the bright sun rays. In reference to Jesus the “elohim” and “theos” is translated “God” because Jesus has all the attributes and characteristics of being God including being with the Father in the beginning of all things as the Word that was with God and was God and by or through whom all things were created and without whom “nothing came into existence”! (John 1:1-3 – John 1:10 – Col 1:16, 17 – Heb 1:1-10) In fact Paul in context of Col 1:16, 17 says that by him (Jesus) all things “consist”. That is a characteristic that only “The God' has. The translators are smart enough to put together those scriptures with these… “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, and spreading out the earth ALL ALONE.” Is 44:24 KJV This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, “stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF”, laying out the earth. “Who was with me? Isa 44:24 NWT Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the HEAVEN ALONE, and established the earth. Isa 44:24 Lexicon The Apostles and the Translators also considered that Jehovah said there is “no God” beside him…   I am the LORD, and “THERE IS NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME“: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that “THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME“. I am the LORD, and “THERE IS NONE ELSE“. Isa 45:5, 6   I am Jehovah, and “THERE IS NO ONE ELSE”. With the exception of me “THERE IS NO GOD. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me, 6 in order that people may know from the rising of the sun and from its setting that “THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME. I am Jehovah, and “THERE IS NO ONE ELSE”. Isa 45: 5, 6 5 For I am the Lord God, and “there is NO OTHER GOD BESIDE ME”; I strengthened thee, and thou hast not known me. 6 That they that come from the east and they that come from the west may know that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ME”. I am the Lord God, and “THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”.  Isa 45:5, 6 LXX So we see God alone, by himself is God and there is no other beside him who created all things. So the Apostle John knew this and by the Spirit of Revelation reveals to us that the “Word was with God and was God”. Paul reveals to us the same thing. So the Translators also know this and translate the word “Theos” with the capitol “G” in reference to Jesus who also said he is “One” with the Father. The problem you have Mike is you have to discard or change the literal meaning of the scriptures to reconcile your theology. The JW translators do not even realize that they have contradicted themselves with their own translation that says there is no “other God beside him and by himself he created all things ” and yet puts “a god” next to him in John 1:1-3. The only way to reconcile these scriptures is to realize that God is plural and that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One God that shares the same essence or that which makes God, God. In other words the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit share all the attributes or characteristics of the “One True God” . So here are some questions for you Mike. Do the above scriptures say “there is no God but One”? Do the above scriptures say “there is none beside him”? Do the above scriptures say “God alone created all things”? Do they state that “Jesus had a part in creating all things”? Do the scriptures say “Jesus was sitting beside the Father during the creation of all things”? How do you reconcile these Mike without saying that “By Myself”, “Alone”, “Non Other God” doesn’t mean “By Myself”, “Alone”, “Non Other God”?” Blessings WJ

Keith,

You are a man of great intellect.

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,14:36)

Keith, You are a man of great intellect.   Jack

Jack LOL

But come on brother, I am not really.

Thanks for the gesture but the little man worshipping is a little much don't you think?  

WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2011,06:46)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,14:36) Keith, You are a man of great intellect.   Jack Jack LOL But come on brother, I am not really. Thanks for the gesture but the little man worshipping is a little much don't you think?   WJ

Mike would say that the little man is just doing “obeisance.” Your intellect is worthy of obeisance.

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,14:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2011,06:46) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,14:36) Keith, You are a man of great intellect.   Jack Jack LOL But come on brother, I am not really. Thanks for the gesture but the little man worshipping is a little much don't you think?   WJ Mike would say that the little man is just doing “obeisance.” Your intellect is worthy of obeisance. Jack

Jack

I am ROTFL.  

Blessings Keith

[princess]

kids……..

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 13 2011,15:07)

kids……..

Hey Princess

Its okay to be childlike sometimes isn't it?

Didn't you recently tell me to “Chill” or lightenup?  

Blessings WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2011,07:10)

Quote (princess @ Jan. 13 2011,15:07) kids…….. Hey Princess Its okay to be childlike sometimes isn't it? Didn't you recently tell me to “Chill” or lightenup?   Blessings WJ

You can't please Princess. When we call Mike on his chest beating nonsense we're we accused of being unloving. When we get lightearted and have fun we're “kids.”

Yet when Mike beats his chest he is a mature man.

Jack

[princess]

wj,

laughter is good medicine.

take care

[princess]

jack a roo jr,

much love

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 13 2011,15:26)

wj, laughter is good medicine. take care

Thanks Princess

Blessings Kieth

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (princess @ Jan. 14 2011,07:28)

jack a roo jr, much love

Roo Jr.

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Kangaroo Jack Jr. vs. Mikeboll64

Roo Jr.

[Author]

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