Mikeboll64 vs francis

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 12 2011,03:00)

Irene said:

Quote

KJ You took that Scripture out of context and applied it to Jesus, it is NOT JESUS read it all.

Irene,

It is applied to Jesus in Hebrews 1:1-6

Quote

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[a] purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[c]

And again:

“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?[d]

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[e]

Jack

Again, I said that about 2 Sam. and not Hebrew. I find it rather interesting that nobody answered Istari's post. I thought it was a good one…..let me bring it up…..Irene.

January 12, 2011 at 3:27 am#232780

Participant

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 11 2011,11:03)

For there to be a Father, there must also be a Son.

So, before there was a Son there was no Father.

Be careful. There being no Father does not mean there was no person who would BECOME the Father.

I have a Son. I am a Father.
Before my Son was born, I was…but I was not yet a Father!

God Almighty was not a Father until he created his Spirit Sons.
God Almighty was not a Father until he created his Angels.

Trinity Creed says that God Almighty is the Father of Jesus.
Trinity Creed says that the Father is Jesus' father.

Before the Father was the Father He was not a Father.
Before God created Jesus He was not the Father.

Has Jesus got two Fathers?

What is the name of Jesus' Father?

If there was only God Almighty how was there an eternal Trinity?
An eternal Trinity of ONE?

If there was only God Almighty and his Holy Spirit, how was there an eternal Trinity of ONE?

The Holy Spirit is OF GOD.
The Holy Spirit is not a Separate God person from God. Even the very title says 'The Hy Spirit OF God'

Who was saying,'eternal Father'?
Before the Son was, there could be no Father.
Before the Father could be, first the Son must come.

And God said, 'Today, I have BECOME your father'

Very good….Peace Irene

January 12, 2011 at 4:19 am#232781

shimmer

Participant

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 12 2011,05:51)

Irene,
There are THREE occasions of Jesus being Son of God.
1) when he was created like all the other Angels
2) when he came as Man in the Flesh
3) when he was raised up and made High Priest to God (Romans 1:4)

The third and last was the most important because this was when he became the Everlasting Son, the Eternal Son.
This was when he was 'Begotten', became Begotten of God and God said,'You are my Son, Todayy I have become your father'.

See that God did not say this to him when he was an Angel, when he was a Messenger.

A true Son of God is he who has the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was given the FULL Measure of the Holy Spirit when he was raised up from the dead and taken up to Heaven. Before that he was 'only' Anointed with the Holy Spirit.
Anointing means 'setting aside for Kingship' as was done to Saul, David, Solomon, etc.
The Anointed one still had to prove their worthiness and this Jesus did completely.

In John where Jesus is called 'Begotten' John is referencing Jesus as he was and is, already raised up. This is what Mikeboll64 cannot understand. John is talking about the risen Christ.
John says that God sent his 'Only Begotten Son' but where in Scriptures is anything said about Jesus being Begotten before he was raised up? Nowhere!
Just say of a renowned person,'the great actor came from a poor illiterate background'
Now, was that actor 'great' while he was poor and illiterate?
The Hero dived into the icy water to rescue the drowning lady.
Was the Hero a hero before he dived in and rescued the lady?
For sure God sent his Son who was the most righteous in Heaven from among all his other Sons and many people misunderstand thinking that God only had ONE Son, but simply ignore all the Scriptures that show God's other sons because of tradition of teaching.
Jesus himself tells us that God has many Sons, and these are the Princes, the Principle Sons of God, they who receive God's word and carry out God's word, as he did.
But distorted teaching bury this truth in favour of Earthly minded ideas of Sonship.

Sonship to Man means a procreated offspring.
Since all Spirit comes from God, we are all, initially, Sons of God, but fall away when sin enters us and enter us it does in the earliest instance of life, even as a baby.
But God sees Sonship as anyone, everyone, who receives his word and carries it out. He also gives due allowance for sin in them: Moses was Son of God, yet sinned; David was Son of God, yet Sinned, Abraham, Solomon, Ezekiel, Daniel…all sinned.

When you can see with Spiritual Eyes, all these things become clear and are profound revelations.

Reach for the Spiritual Mind and the Scriptures start to make sense and you will see the hidden links, the fractal hooks that hold Scriptures in unity and truth.

It is this lack of Spiritualness that causes the disharmony in understanding, added to personal ignorance and demanding to be right, to be seen as right, forcing untruth for the sake of desiring ones own ideas to be ratified by others yet being incapable of joining the ends of discord, or datcord!
Reach for the Spiritual Truth and open your eyes.

But be prepared to be 'blocked' by those who seek disharmony and favour untruth, even if 'well meant and honestly misled'.
If Jesus was crucified for speaking Truth, should the righteous Man not also expect to be crucified like his great Lord and King.

Who is the Barabbas in this forum?

Amen.

And understood like this, all falls into place, there is no mystery. The only confusion which is caused is by those who seek to cause the confusion. Many there are.

January 12, 2011 at 4:26 am#232783

shimmer

Participant

WJ and KJ,

If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don't have love, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing.
If I dole out all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but don't have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is patient and is kind; love doesn't envy. Love doesn't brag, is not proud, doesn't behave itself inappropriately, doesn't seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

January 12, 2011 at 7:16 am#232787

SimplyForgiven

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2011,07:21)

'elohiym
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

Know of what you speak, young Dennison. “God” with a capital “G” is only two of the nine definitions given for the word above. And even then, it still simply means “ruler” or “judge”. It was used of humans, angels, Jesus, and the Omniscient Being Who Created All.

Keith, will you go as far as saying these “judges” in Exodus were “false judges” or “imposters”?

peace and love,
mike

Mike,
The Lord makes it very clear He is God alone and no other is like or even close to be like him.
Lets study Deuteronomy 32
12So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.
16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Here is the Identity of the One True God.
4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
37And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Clearly he is like no other, his works are perfect. So Clearly its not about the Title, its about Identity.

There is no God but the One True God. for you to state there are many Gods is ridculous, even the Translators would agree.

Your Definition and contentions that “Elohim” is only a Title and only means “Rulers or Judge” Is a fallacy, and not the intentions of the writers at all, because each title has a role to be fullfilled in order to be called such a thing.

1. One cannot be God if he is not a supreme being. (As a father cannot Truely be a father if he does not have a son)
2. The Title is a fullfiled role that can be used as a Identity instead of just a title.

Your Logic and Definition would obstruct the View of Genesis1:1
Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Who created the heavens and the Earth?
According to your logic MANY are called “Elohim” so out of this MANY, who is the one who created the heavens in the earth, and HOW could you know?

IT doenst reference to whom is God, it just says that someone with this title created the earth and heavens.

Obviously the Writer used “Elohim” as a Identity and not solely a title.

The God, is a perfect being, therefore whatever is not perfect cannot be God.

its thats simple.

January 12, 2011 at 3:08 pm#232804

Participant

Irene said:

Quote

Again, I said that about 2 Sam. and not Hebrew. I find it rather interesting that nobody answered Istari's post. I thought it was a good one…..let me bring it up…..Irene.

Irene,

Go ahead and ignore that Hebrews 1:6 applies the 2 Samuel prophecy to Christ saying, “I will BECOME a Father to Him.” God was not always the Father.

Jack

January 12, 2011 at 3:16 pm#232805

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 12 2011,14:26)

WJ and KJ,

Shimmer,

Why didn't you include Mike in your exhortation to us? He is beating his chest acting like a clown. Is that love maam? No! It's provocative. He is accusing me of running and hiding AFTER I had Pmed him telling him that I will not be spending much time here. Does Mike love maam?

Is it love on your part not to fairly and justly instruct ALL involved? No. It's not love on your part. It's partiality plain and simple.

Jack

January 12, 2011 at 3:28 pm#232807

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2011,10:18)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2011,18:08)

Keith, you ran and hid from me long before that!

Look at how our debates have all ended………with me patiently waiting for an answer to a very valid and simple question.

LOL I have been on this sight a lot longer than you and have met more challenging people than you so your statement is never the case Mike.

I got tired of answering the same question over and over even If when I answered it a thousand times you refused to accept my answer as valid so you would just ask it another way. Finally I let you have the last word and move on. You never ever in any debate that I have seen let anyone have the last word Mike.

Why is that you have to have the last word and then beat your chest like you are a winner over us?

Keith,

I was just thinking that Mike may beat his chest to create a diversion and get the attention off his weak arguments. He hung himself by defining the word “elohim” simply as “ruler.” If “elohim” means “ruler”, then in reference to the Father it must mean that He is ruler in the most superlative sense. Since Jesus Christ is called “our only despotes”, then Mike's defintion of “elohim” proves nothing for a “despotes” is also is a ruler in the most superlative sense.

That's got to be it Keith. All Mike's chest beating is meant to be a diversion to take people's attention away from his weak arguments.

Let's remember that the chest beater on top of the empire state building was shot down.

Jack

January 12, 2011 at 3:42 pm#232809

Participant

Quote (princess @ Jan. 11 2011,18:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2011,10:23)

Princess

You take things to seriously. Mike started this by his beating of the chest by saying we ran from him.

thank you for the compliment, i did not know you took your faith like a grain of salt.

to do comparison wj, you and mike both write similar.

so maybe, just maybe, mike was not the only one beating on his chest……….just a thought.

however, continue on about the trinity, of course it is not going to go away, why would it, it rules the world, what is that passage you use, who rules the world wj.

goodnight to you also.

HAHA Princess

You attack my faith and insinuate that my faith is of satan!

That sounds like you are beating the drum of being “Elite”.

Then accuse KJ and myself of not being Christian like for pointing out Mikes beating of the chest?

Funny indeed!

January 12, 2011 at 3:45 pm#232810

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Jan. 11 2011,22:26)

WJ and KJ,

Shimmer

Yet you bow down at the teachings of Istari who is JA?

Don't you think those scriptures are for all?

January 12, 2011 at 4:03 pm#232812

Participant

Hi All

All this reminds me of the recent shooting here in the states committed by a lunatic that killed 6 people including a Federal Judge and critically wounding others including a US Senator.

So the left wing liberal democrats begins to blame and attack the Tea Party and the conservatives for this hideous crime because they say this lunatic was influenced by the Tea Party rhetoric that they say incites violence.

The truth is the left wing liberal Democrats were booted out of office in November because they have been loosing the debate so they are attacking and using inexcusable tactics like blaming the Tea Party for this crime committed by a lunatic.

Watch folks, when someone is loosing a debate they begin to attack the person with ad-hominems while at the same time blaming them for it.

January 12, 2011 at 4:21 pm#232814

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 11 2011,16:43)

Princess,
I wonder whats worse,
To be upfront about it,

or the insults that are written in between in the lines,
in the dark corners,
in silence, and behind our backs.
with trickeray and false implications.

January 12, 2011 at 5:41 pm#232816

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,01:08)

Irene said:

Quote

Again, I said that about 2 Sam. and not Hebrew. I find it rather interesting that nobody answered Istari's post. I thought it was a good one…..let me bring it up…..Irene.

Irene,

Go ahead and ignore that Hebrews 1:6 applies the 2 Samuel prophecy to Christ saying, “I will BECOME a Father to Him.” God was not always the Father.

Jack

2Sa 7:4 ¶ And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

2Sa 7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in

Do you see who is talking to whom? Nathan is talking to David.

2Sa 7:12 ¶ And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men

Now do you see who is being a Father to whom?

it is Solomon who is in question here.

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who do you think is meant by past time Fathers? They are the For Fathers of that nations. God spoke to them through the Prophets, now in the last days Paul says, He has spoken to us through His Son Jesus Christ….

Peace Irene

January 12, 2011 at 5:47 pm#232817

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 13 2011,03:41)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,01:08)

Irene said:

Quote

Again, I said that about 2 Sam. and not Hebrew. I find it rather interesting that nobody answered Istari's post. I thought it was a good one…..let me bring it up…..Irene.

Irene,

Go ahead and ignore that Hebrews 1:6 applies the 2 Samuel prophecy to Christ saying, “I will BECOME a Father to Him.” God was not always the Father.

Jack

2Sa 7:4 ¶ And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

2Sa 7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in

Do you see who is talking to whom? Nathan is talking to David.

2Sa 7:12 ¶ And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men

Now do you see who is being a Father to whom?

it is Solomon is in question here.

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Peace Irene

Irene,

The author to the Hebrews applied the 2 Samuel prophecy to Christ. hH specifically quoted that part which God said, “I will BECOME a father to Him.” God was not always a father just like Georg was not always a father.

Do you believe the author to the Hebrews was inspired or not? No games please. Just answer plainly.

KJ Jr.

January 12, 2011 at 5:52 pm#232819

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2011,02:03)

Hi All

All this reminds me of the recent shooting here in the states committed by a lunatic that killed 6 people including a Federal Judge and critically wounding others including a US Senator.

Watch folks, when someone is loosing a debate they begin to attack the person with ad-hominems while at the same time blaming them for it.

Yeah Keith. And in our system thaeparty that is doing the attacking does not want to admit its own sins. So here they do not want to admit that Mike instigates when he beats his chest the way he does.

Jack

January 12, 2011 at 6:02 pm#232820

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,03:47)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 13 2011,03:41)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 13 2011,01:08)

Irene said:

Quote

Again, I said that about 2 Sam. and not Hebrew. I find it rather interesting that nobody answered Istari's post. I thought it was a good one…..let me bring it up…..Irene.

Irene,

Go ahead and ignore that Hebrews 1:6 applies the 2 Samuel prophecy to Christ saying, “I will BECOME a Father to Him.” God was not always the Father.

Jack

2Sa 7:4 ¶ And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

2Sa 7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in

Do you see who is talking to whom? Nathan is talking to David.

2Sa 7:12 ¶ And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men

Now do you see who is being a Father to whom?

it is Solomon is in question here.

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Peace Irene

Irene,

Do you believe the author to the Hebrews was inspired or not? No games please. Just answer plainly.

KJ Jr.

KJ First of all, you still don't understand what 2 Samuel 7:14 means. All the Authors of the Bible were inspired by Gods Holy Spirit. I also never questioned that Almighty God was a Father before Jesus was Created by Almighty God. He is the firstborn of all creation, which you don't believe…..

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

And I don't play games here…..
Irene

January 12, 2011 at 6:15 pm#232821

princess

Participant

WorshippingJesus
Posted: Jan. 13 2011,01:42

wj,
don't fuss it is not like you.

we are not strangers wj, to consider that to be an attack on your faith, is digging, what did jackaroojr tell me, scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

whichever the case, the trinity belief is of no use to me, nor after many years of discussing the matter, it has not been confirmed to be truth and i am at peace with this.

all men are judged, there is no exception to the rule.

January 12, 2011 at 6:42 pm#232822

Participant

Quote (princess @ Jan. 13 2011,04:15)

WorshippingJesus
Posted: Jan. 13 2011,01:42

wj,
don't fuss it is not like you.

we are not strangers wj, to consider that to be an attack on your faith, is digging, what did jackaroojr tell me, scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

whichever the case, the trinity belief is of no use to me, nor after many years of discussing the matter, it has not been confirmed to be truth and i am at peace with this.

all men are judged, there is no exception to the rule.

with that I agree, and we do well after a few posts to explain that there is no trinity, to stop posting to that person………..

Peace Irene

January 12, 2011 at 6:47 pm#232823