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WJ,
You ask me a question that you asked Mikeboll64 as if you had asked me before and I had not answered – what's up widja man?
You BOLDING and BLUEing the question to me as If you had asked me before – this shows you don't know who it is you are asking – Mikeboll64 has got you blazing cos you can't answer even teh simplest of simple questions using teh Trintiy doctrine.
Crazy man – I'm reporting this to t8.
(And you want to be a Moderator?)Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2011,10:20) Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,18:10) To All, Do people who believe in the TRINITY always need to play games and become demons in human form to defend their indefensible CREED?
Well, DUH, YES!!!
I think it is funny JA that you attack Trinitarians yet you came in here as an “Alias” like a fallen angel transforming himself into an angel of light by acting as someone else.It seems that is disengenuous to me. Oh well what ever makes you happy!
WJ
Hi WJ,Is MikeBoll64 Michael the Arch angel in your analogy?
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 06 2011,10:44) WJ, You ask me a question that you asked Mikeboll64 as if you had asked me before and I had not answered – what's up widja man?
You BOLDING and BLUEing the question to me as If you had asked me before – this shows you don't know who it is you are asking – Mikeboll64 has got you blazing cos you can't answer even teh simplest of simple questions using teh Trintiy doctrine.
Crazy man – I'm reporting this to t8.
(And you want to be a Moderator?)
Hi istari,I agree, WJ is fired as a 'moderator'!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgWJ,
There is no such thing as an ETERNAL FATHER – you just made that up…
God is ETERNAL, yes. but you FUSE 'Father' into God with no seam.
A father cannot be unless he has a Son.
The Son must come at the same time as the Father – BOTH come at the same time.Before the Man was a Father – he was NOT a father.
Before the Son was – There was no Father.God was alone with his Holy Spirit.
Then God created SONS in heaven, Angels Spirit Sons, some of whom he made Messengers and some to worship him and others to be his Principle Sons of whom Lucifer and (one to be called JESUS) are the preEminent Sons.
Some more MIGHTY ONES are Michael and Gabriel, that we know of, yet Scriptures implies there were more ('Michael, one of the Chief Princes' – one of the CHIEF Princes and captain of the heavenly host of the army [angels] of God)'And there was a day when the SONS of God came to convene with God…'
'And the Sons of God saw the women of Man and came down and went into them'
“And God said, 'this is my Son, in whom I am well pleased'”
“And the Genealogy of Jesus beginning with Mary….Adam, SON [in the flesh] of God'
And God said “You are my Son, Today I have begotten you (I have “”””BECOME””” your FATHER)WJ, God has many SONS. A TRUE Son is one who walks in the way of God – of whom Jesus was preEminent, but also other to follow.
WJ, you shouting at me asking to answer for Mikebll64, that ain't on…but just to answer anyway:
Jesus is not the GOD of ANYONE…I never said he was – your question is to MIKEBOLL64 – it is to him that that argument pertains…How are you asking me answer for a argument between you and Mikeboll64?
But even so, WJ, Jesus is not the GOD of ANYONE – There is ONE ONE TRUE GOD – we AGREED THIS ALREADY…
It seems even to agree with you is torment to you?I did not say that Jesus was the God of anyone….what you are FORCING my writing to say is that I am saying anyone called 'God' or 'a God' is GOD ALMIGHTY…yet even you don't say “God Almighty”…
This is because you don't understand that “GOD” is only a TITLE – I explained this at length….it is a TITLE like Judge, SIR, Majesty, KING, LORD, RULER….It shows that that person is 'ABOVE ALL OTHERS IN HIS CLASS' and as with ALL KINGS, RULERS, MAJESTIES, POWERS, SIRS, LORDS, there is ALWAYS ONE SUPREME ABOVE THEM ALL – GOD ALMIGHTY.
So to say that there are no other 'gods' is totally wrong, since even Saint Paul says the same (For indeed there are 'gods' and 'Lords') and God himself called Moses ' the God of Aaron (As God to Aaron)
but WJ, why am I repeating these things to you – you know them already.
Finally, “Jesus himself DENIED BEING GOD when the Jews confronted him by saying “I AM THE SON of GOD” and God ALMIGHTY himself called others '[sons of] gods' as I am son of God…because they, Like me, received the word of God Almighty.
ED J,
can you believe that BIG BLUE can't answer a simple straight question concerning the trinity?
Yes, me too, I agree…Cos he can't – maerkat simples!He pallies some twaddlle at me and then immediately starts asking questions – he has no intention of a decent response – and then screws into claiming I#m adhomineming him – good defence – he then never has to answer – is he running for the whitehouse next year with Sarah Pallin, perhaps. – you know what – on his form, he'll get in, whadayfink?
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 06 2011,11:19) ED J, can you believe that BIG BLUE can't answer a simple straight question concerning the trinity?
Yes, me too, I agree…Cos he can't – maerkat simples!He pallies some twaddlle at me and then immediately starts asking questions – he has no intention of a decent response – and then screws into claiming I#m adhomineming him – good defence – he then never has to answer – is he running for the whitehouse next year with Sarah Pallin, perhaps. – you know what – on his form, he'll get in, whadayfink?
Hi Istari,The Bible uses “Lord”(not God) for a Good reason; “Lord” means “owner”!
Jesus is “owner”, because his father(YHVH) is “THE OWNER”; simple, Yes?Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha….i just read one of WJ' s comments to me -ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !
“You do understand that an infinite God cannot be explained by using graphs and charts don’t you?”
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha – has anyone seen the innumerable diagrams and charts of “TRINITY” proofs??? -ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !
Hi Istari,
I was reading some of your responses from our conversation last night and one thing that I would like to say is that it is ok to disagree. I have presented the best word picture that I have ever had on the subject. You mentioned that I must not try to explain spiritual things in earthly ways and I also disagree with that. Jesus did it all the time in His parables. Didn't He say something like the kingdom of God was like a mustard seed? Every one of His parables, from what I remember, used earthly examples to convey spiritual truth. And He mentioned that if ya don't get the earthly examples, how are ya going to get spiritual truth. It was something like that, anyway.Take care Istari!
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 05 2011,01:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 05 2011,10:17) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 04 2011,23:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 05 2011,09:50) Istari, The point is the Father can be called 'Father' before the Son is actually begotten/brought forth.
In other Words,God wasn't always “the father” its not his eteranl identity nor part of it until that role was fulfilled.
Its like haveing scuba gear to potentialy go underwater,but what for if your in dry land.
Therefore though God always had the potential to be a father, but wasnt the father until he had a son.
Dennison,
I am not saying that God always had the potential to be a father but that He always was a father. He just hadn't begotten the Son yet until sometime before creation.To use an earthly example, Mary was a mother before she gave birth…Elizabeth called her the 'mother of my Lord.' Before she conceived and even before the angel came to her the first time, she was a potential mother.
Life begins at conception.
That really depends.Potential and actual are two different things.
I THINK we are saying the same thing.I said God as the full potential to be the Father, so a potential father, but couldnt have always been a father becuase a son must exist for that to happen.
If your stating that life begin in conception, than what is the conception of general life that makes God the Father of?
Hi Dennison,
Let me clarify about life beginning at conception. I mentioned that because, humanly speaking, a potential father is one that has the ability to conceive a child but has not conceived a child yet. Once he has conceived, then he goes from being a potential father to a father of an unborn child. He is a father even before the child is born because life begins at conception.With the Father, I understand how He could have always been a Father if He always had a son within Him yet to be begotten. Then, at some point before creation, the Son was begotten.
I don't believe that God being Father and Son and Holy Spirit are roles but relationships.
God the Father=the one true God, unbegotten
God who is the Son= the true begotten God, the Lord Jesus who manifests the Father.
The Holy Spirit=the Spirit within the Father that extends from the Father bringing His omnipresence of the Father to creation.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2011,10:35) Keith, There is no “point” that I'm refusing to concede. You know that YHVH is called the “King of kings”. Yet, so is Jesus, Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes. But if I were to emphasize that YHVH was the “ONLY TRUE KING OF KINGS”, it would not mean the others were “false kings”, “usurpers”, or “imposters”. It would be an emphatic way of saying that although there are MANY kings, for us there is but one King – the Father. Similar to the wording Paul used in 1 Cor 8:5, right?
For you and SF to say I'm a polytheist is a diversion to get out of a situation you can't possibly win by making a quick getaway. A polytheist believes there are many Gods who are worthy of worship. But I know that “god” is only a title that means “powerful ruler”. And I believe the scriptures that speak of many different “powerful rulers”.
The monotheistic belief system is based on only one true God who created the heavens, earth, and everything in them. And with that I agree. Monotheism also asserts there is only one true God whom we worship and serve. With this I also agree.
But you guys aren't addressing the scriptures. YHVH called ones to whom His word came “gods”. Yet here you both stand, accusing me of something bad because I'm believing the scriptures.
You claim, “Well, those others aren't really “gods” at all, but false gods and imposters.” And I keep reminding you that it was our ONLY TRUE GOD who called them “gods” in the first place. Is our ONLY TRUE GOD a liar? If no, then there ARE other gods mentioned in the Bible, right? So it is wrong for YOU GUYS to claim I'm a polytheist or whatever because I believe my God when He called others “gods”. And it is YOU GUYS who are actually going against scripture.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2011,09:23)
If Jehovah is the “ONLY – ONLY – ONLY – ONE – ONE – ONE – NONE OTHER – NONE OTHER – NONE OTHER – TRUE KING OF JUDAH” then Nebuchadnezzar cannot be a “TRUE KING OF JUDAH”.
Yet, Nebuchadnezzar WAS TRULY a king of Judah, right? And Satan TRULY IS a “powerful ruler”, right? And if YHVH called those to whom His word came “gods”, then they WERE TRULY gods, right?Keith, the more you repeat “ONLY” and “NONE OTHER”, the more you make MY point for me. Because Paul said that while there ARE many gods, for us there is but ONE. And that ONE, as in NONE OTHER and ONLY, is THE FATHER. And if that ONE, as in NONE OTHER and ONLY, is THE FATHER, then it can't possibly be the Son………..unless the Son IS the Father, as Dennison believes but is afraid to bring it up here against you, Keith.
And if it is the Son himself who teaches us that the ONLY TRUE GOD is THE FATHER, then we have yet another reason to conclude that our “ONLY TRUE GOD” is NOT the Son.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2011,09:23)
Who is Jesus “The God” of Mike, since you have no problem saying satan is “The God of this world“?
Keith, I answered this by saying that Jesus was MY powerful ruler. Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth. His own God, YHVH Almighty, has let His servant Jesus hold this position and power for a while, and then His servant Jesus will relinquish it back to “our God and his God”, the ONLY TRUE GOD.peace and love,
mike
Mike! very good post, and I agree…..Peace Irene
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote Hi JA Because we have had this conversation before, and the question is unfounded because of the premise. Why should I argue the sky is blue when you don’t believe the sky exists?
Keith,You called him JA. Is Istari JA?
Jack
Mikeboll said:
Quote His own God, YHVH Almighty, has let His servant Jesus hold this position and power for a while, Jesus became a servant and then was exalted. He is no longer a servant. See our debate here https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3358
Jesus is also called “the true God.” See my debate with t8 here https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2982
Jack
Hi Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Keith, There is no “point” that I'm refusing to concede.
Really? Then why do you insist that “Only One True God” means there are “Other True Gods’?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) You know that YHVH is called the “King of kings”. Yet, so is Jesus, Nebuchadnezzar and Artaxerxes. But if I were to emphasize that YHVH was the “ONLY TRUE KING OF KINGS”, it would not mean the others were “false kings”, “usurpers”, or “imposters”.
And why not? “ONLY TRUE KING OF KINGS” would mean that there is “NO OTHER TRUE KING OF KING” and all others are false, right? You see what I mean Mike? Words for you and JA don’t mean anything because you can manipulate them any way you want.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) It would be an emphatic way of saying that although there are MANY kings, for us there is but one King – the Father. Similar to the wording Paul used in 1 Cor 8:5, right?
Not so! Paul says “…and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE“. and that all others are so-called gods. But once again you are using a “Hypothetical” to say that “Only One True God” means there are “Other True Gods”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) For you and SF to say I'm a polytheist is a diversion to get out of a situation you can't possibly win by making a quick getaway. 
You wish we would make a getaway because you are flopping like a fish out of water. Don’t get offended Mike, I still Love you but come on man you are dancing.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) A polytheist believes there are many Gods who are worthy of worship.
“Polytheism”: belief in or worship of more than one god Source
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) But I know that “god” is only a title that means “powerful ruler”. And I believe the scriptures that speak of many different “powerful rulers”.
To you that has to be the definition Mike because you learned that from the JWs and that is the only way to make your doctrine work. Of course it doesn't really work but you have only convinced yourself that it does. But it doesn’t solve the “Only One True God” problem that you have nor the Polytheist problem that you have, because if God = “powerful rulers” then every “powerful ruler” is a god.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) The monotheistic belief system is based on only one true God who created the heavens, earth, and everything in them. And with that I agree. Monotheism also asserts there is only one true God whom we worship and serve. With this I also agree.
You can’t have it both ways Mike. You either believe there is “Only One True God” and all others are false, imposters, usurpers, or so-called gods or your belief is Polytheistic and not Monotheistic. Monotheist believes there is no other gods’ period.“Monotheism”
: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God Source
All of you Non Jesus is God folks that believe Jesus is “a god” but not “ho theos” the God are polytheist. You don’t like labels well if you are a duck then why do you mind being called a duck?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) But you guys aren't addressing the scriptures. YHVH called ones to whom His word came “gods”. Yet here you both stand, accusing me of something bad because I'm believing the scriptures. You claim, “Well, those others aren't really “gods” at all, but false gods and imposters.” And I keep reminding you that it was our ONLY TRUE GOD who called them “gods” in the first place. Is our ONLY TRUE GOD a liar? If no, then there ARE other gods mentioned in the Bible, right? So it is wrong for YOU GUYS to claim I'm a polytheist or whatever because I believe my God when He called others “gods”. And it is YOU GUYS who are actually going against scripture.
You see Mike this comes from listening too much to your roots the JWs and not examining scriptures closer. Jesus is merely quoting the Psalmist and saying to the hypocrites that it was written in “Their Law” that ye are gods. But look again Mike it is “the Psalmist Asaph that calls them gods” because they were like gods to the people who had fallen into the worship and the belief of many being gods. But Asaph says “they will die like men” and that is because they were men and not gods at all. So you see Mike Jehovah was not promoting “Polytheism’ neither was he contradicting himself when he says that there are “No other Gods but one”! Jesus was pointing out their hypocrisy because in “their law” (Talmud) according to Ps 82 they believed in other gods yet accused him of blasphemy for saying he was the Son of God. Jesus was not promoting Polytheism but rebuking them for their Polytheism and their Hypocrisy!Blessings WJ
Hi Mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2011,09:23)
If Jehovah is the “ONLY – ONLY – ONLY – ONE – ONE – ONE – NONE OTHER – NONE OTHER – NONE OTHER – TRUE KING OF JUDAH” then Nebuchadnezzar cannot be a “TRUE KING OF JUDAH”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Yet, Nebuchadnezzar WAS TRULY a king of Judah, right?
Not if YHVH is the “ONLY – ONLY – ONLY – ONE – ONE – ONE – NONE OTHER – NONE OTHER – NONE OTHER – TRUE KING OF JUDAH”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) And Satan TRULY IS a “powerful ruler”, right?
Is satan “truly a true god“? This is more diversion and spin Mike. The scriptures do not say that there is “Only One Truly God”. Satan is “the god” of this world because he has blinded their minds to seeing that there is “Only One True God”. Is satan “a true God”?Just like men worshipping and bowing down to idols as god but they are not gods at all. They are so-called gods.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) And if YHVH called those to whom His word came “gods”, then they WERE TRULY gods, right?
Look again, YHVH never called them gods and if he does then he is referring to them as “false gods” or he would be contradicting himself like you are contradicting yourself.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Keith, the more you repeat “ONLY” and “NONE OTHER”, the more you make MY point for me.
Really, how is that? “ONLY ONE – NONE OTHER” in plain English does not mean there are “others” does it?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Because Paul said that while there ARE many gods, for us there is but ONE. And that ONE, as in NONE OTHER and ONLY, is THE FATHER. And if that ONE, as in NONE OTHER and ONLY, is THE FATHER, then it can't possibly be the Son………..unless the Son IS the Father, as Dennison believes but is afraid to bring it up here against you, Keith.
So you say Mike, but Paul says they are so-called gods because there are many lords and gods that the world has, yet Paul says “there is NO GOD BUT ONE.. Is Jesus “a so-called” god? Is he a false god? You say he is a god but what kind of god is he? If there is “Only One True God” then there are no other options for you except to deny the scriptures that call Jesus God. I have shown you that all other so-called gods are not gods at all but imposters, usurpers, false, idols. But we can’t say that about Jesus can we?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) And if it is the Son himself who teaches us that the ONLY TRUE GOD is THE FATHER, then we have yet another reason to conclude that our “ONLY TRUE GOD” is NOT the Son.
But if Jesus is “a god” as you say then he must be a “True God” and if so then that means that he is either One God with the Father or he is not god at all. Which is it Mike? Could it be possible that when they wanted to stone Jesus for saying he and the Father were One that that is what he meant? Yep that’s right, even John who was there and witnessed this several times says that he was making himself equal to God by claiming he was the Son of God.But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “BUT SAID ALSO THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”. John 5:17, 18
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, “BECAUSE HE MADE HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD”. John 19:7
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2011,09:23)
Who is Jesus “The God” of Mike, since you have no problem saying satan is “The God of this world“?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Keith, I answered this by saying that Jesus was MY powerful ruler.
OK then why mince words? If you say God = “powerful ruler” then why not say he is “my god” then why not call Jesus you Lord and God like Thomas and the majority of Orthodox Christianity? You seem to have no problem saying “satan is the god of this world”. What Gives?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2011,18:35) Jesus is the god, or “powerful ruler” of all in heaven right now, and of the believer's on earth.
Praise God Mike!
Hey all Mike has just confessed that Jesus is “the god of all believers!” So if he is “the god of all believers” on the earth and in heaven then why do you say “he is not your god”? If he is “the god of all believers” then he must be “the True God” right? How could Jesus be “The god of all believers” and not be the “True God” when the scriptures clearly say “There is Only One True God”? You see your dilemma Mike? So now that you have admitted that Jesus is “the god of all believers” then you should not be accusing others for calling Jesus their God because they are confessing and believing scriptures right?Blessings WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 06 2011,14:06) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Hi JA Because we have had this conversation before, and the question is unfounded because of the premise. Why should I argue the sky is blue when you don’t believe the sky exists?
Keith,You called him JA. Is Istari JA?
Jack
YepHe got kicked and then came back as an Alias like martian, but it didn't take us long to figure it out. His true colors started shinning again.
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2011,18:54) Quote (Istari @ Jan. 06 2011,10:44) WJ, You ask me a question that you asked Mikeboll64 as if you had asked me before and I had not answered – what's up widja man?
You BOLDING and BLUEing the question to me as If you had asked me before – this shows you don't know who it is you are asking – Mikeboll64 has got you blazing cos you can't answer even teh simplest of simple questions using teh Trintiy doctrine.
Crazy man – I'm reporting this to t8.
(And you want to be a Moderator?)
Hi istari,I agree, WJ is fired as a 'moderator'!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I am not a moderator and neither do you have the power to fire anyone!WJ
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,19:11) WJ, you shouting at me asking to answer for Mikebll64, that ain't on…but just to answer anyway:
Jesus is not the GOD of ANYONE…I never said he was – your question is to MIKEBOLL64 – it is to him that that argument pertains…
JA So then satan is greater than Jesus? The scriptures says he is “The god of this world”?So if you say Jesus is “a god” which you do, then who is he “a god” too? If he is not “a god” to anyone then he is not “a god” at all right?
WJ
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,19:37) Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha….i just read one of WJ' s comments to me -ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ! “You do understand that an infinite God cannot be explained by using graphs and charts don’t you?”
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha – has anyone seen the innumerable diagrams and charts of “TRINITY” proofs??? -ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !
You mean like the ones you have made up? WJ
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