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Kathi,
no, the SON COULD NOT have ALWAYS EXISTED – why are you saying this….Where do you get any evidence to say a SON EXIST BEFORE BEING CREATED as a SON….this is PURELY ILLOGICAL.
Why would a Son exist – then he would not be a SON He would be a GOD…see you turn logic against itself.
If the Son ALWAYS EXISTED then he would be a GOD. Why would a Son exist FROM ETERNITY, HOW CNA A SON EXIST FROM ETERNITY – He would have to be created at Some point to be a SON – then perhaps you want to change the definition of SON – Proceeding from a Father.
you want to change it to ETERNALLY CREATED…maybe – you define what a Son is then?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 04 2011,23:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 05 2011,09:50) Istari, The point is the Father can be called 'Father' before the Son is actually begotten/brought forth.
In other Words,God wasn't always “the father” its not his eteranl identity nor part of it until that role was fulfilled.
Its like haveing scuba gear to potentialy go underwater,but what for if your in dry land.
Therefore though God always had the potential to be a father, but wasnt the father until he had a son.
Dennison,
I am not saying that God always had the potential to be a father but that He always was a father. He just hadn't begotten the Son yet until sometime before creation.To use an earthly example, Mary was a mother before she gave birth…Elizabeth called her the 'mother of my Lord.' Before she conceived and even before the angel came to her the first time, she was a potential mother.
Life begins at conception.
Kathi,
Quote I agree but if the Son always existed before being begotten before the ages, then the Father was always a 'Father.
I know I said 'test me' but my my, can you read that back and ask if such a thing has any kind of logic or sense or meaning of any sort attached to it.“The Son existed before being begotten”? and how would that happens – the son would still have to be created at some point from eternity then begotten some time after…so nothing is cleared up by that statement.
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,00:16) Kathi, no, the SON COULD NOT have ALWAYS EXISTED – why are you saying this….Where do you get any evidence to say a SON EXIST BEFORE BEING CREATED as a SON….this is PURELY ILLOGICAL.
Why would a Son exist – then he would not be a SON He would be a GOD…see you turn logic against itself.
If the Son ALWAYS EXISTED then he would be a GOD. Why would a Son exist FROM ETERNITY, HOW CNA A SON EXIST FROM ETERNITY – He would have to be created at Some point to be a SON – then perhaps you want to change the definition of SON – Proceeding from a Father.
you want to change it to ETERNALLY CREATED…maybe – you define what a Son is then?
Istari,
You are almost there!You said:
Quote Why would a Son exist – then he would not be a SON He would be a GOD…see you turn logic against itself. He would be a begotten God. And His Father would be the never begotten God or unbegotten God as many of the early church father's said.
Also, the Son was not created…He always existed and was in a pre-begotten state within the Father until He was begotten. Only God can always exist and only a 'begotten God' can always exist and be begotten at some point.
kathi,
Dear kathi,The LORD (YHVH, the 'I AM') says, “There is no other GOD but ME, Before ME there was no God created, and after me There is no God created”
He also says “I, alone, am God”
And further, he calls the Son, his Servant, “The Angel of the Lord…do not displease him for my Name is in him”And so, when did God 'beget' this ever-existing Son – How would an EVEREXISTING SON be begotten – and where does Scriptures say this, kathi?
Where and When did God 'beget ' the Son as a Son…kathi, please show me a Scripture (or two or THREE)Istari,
There is no unbegotten God but Him, the Father. He begat the Son that always existed within Him sometime before creation and the Firstborn created all things in heaven and on earth.John 3:16″For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17″For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Goodnight for now Istari. It's been nice discussing with you.
Something else to think about…to be the exact representation of God's nature, one would have to have an always existent nature.
Catch ya later!Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 05 2011,10:17) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 04 2011,23:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 05 2011,09:50) Istari, The point is the Father can be called 'Father' before the Son is actually begotten/brought forth.
In other Words,God wasn't always “the father” its not his eteranl identity nor part of it until that role was fulfilled.
Its like haveing scuba gear to potentialy go underwater,but what for if your in dry land.
Therefore though God always had the potential to be a father, but wasnt the father until he had a son.
Dennison,
I am not saying that God always had the potential to be a father but that He always was a father. He just hadn't begotten the Son yet until sometime before creation.To use an earthly example, Mary was a mother before she gave birth…Elizabeth called her the 'mother of my Lord.' Before she conceived and even before the angel came to her the first time, she was a potential mother.
Life begins at conception.
That really depends.Potential and actual are two different things.
I THINK we are saying the same thing.I said God as the full potential to be the Father, so a potential father, but couldnt have always been a father becuase a son must exist for that to happen.
If your stating that life begin in conception, than what is the conception of general life that makes God the Father of?
Good-Morning Kathi,
Just remember, God is not a woman, nor is he even human, to attribute human ideas on to God is COMPLETELY WRONG.
God is not a woman to CONCEIVE a CHILD in her/him self – Why would God do that…Why ARE YOU even talking about HUMAN CONCEPTS and then attribute them to God – as if you were inventing a idea of how God is?
No Kathi, A SPIRIT does not INCUBATE – that is a HUMAN Concept.
A Spirit CREATES – or rather (ONLY) God Creates – Not Incubates.
No, Kathi, wrong – wrong – wrong – Miles wrong!!!
Please show(You can't) a Scripture that purports to show or demonstrate what you are saying – COMPLETELY NO SUCH THING. Sorry!
The verses you quoted don't even touch on the concept – again – Sorry – There is no link. It is just a typical 'hump in the dark' hoping to get what you think you were aiming for but missed by a mile!(Life begins at conception – ha ha…kathi, I'm sorry, that is so silly to think of God incubating in the Spirit?)
<div style='display: inline-block;' onclick="var a=document.getElementsByTagName('span');for(var z=0;zKathi,please don't confuse HUMAN Concepts onto God Almighty – that is completely the wrong way round!
SimplyForgiven
Posted: Jan. 05 2011,15:29sf,
i am taken back with your words,
never have i read such beautiful thoughts in regards to love.however, i do believe i am not the flirt.
much love to you also sf.
jais,
words of wonder
words of might
words that cut through the nightlove to hear such teachings.
blessed and highly favoured are you for teaching the truth.
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,10:01) And, as SF alludes, GOD (Would be) the FATHER to Son (That would be). So Trinity is again broken…:
God is the Father
The Son is the Son of the fatherGod (The Father) ———The Holy Spirit
|
|
The SonNothing more.
But wait, there is More…see next post.
I dont believe in the Trinity
Istari…
Remember?Quote (princess @ Jan. 05 2011,19:34) SimplyForgiven
Posted: Jan. 05 2011,15:29sf,
i am taken back with your words,
never have i read such beautiful thoughts in regards to love.however, i do believe i am not the flirt.
much love to you also sf.
Its beautiful because thats what God has taught me about love which is above intellect. (1Corin 13)There is no Love without God, because by the very fact that he is Love. Love feverently.
Ya your not, your very lady like.
Oh Gosh am i that obvious?
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,10:11) God has MANY SONS, they are called ANGELS and Messengers, Sons of God. God (The Father) ———The Holy Spirit
|
|
| Spirit Sons of God (ANGELS)
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|—-Senior Princes – The Principle Sons of God (Jesus /Lucifer)
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|—-The other Princes (the other Principle Sons of God – e.g. Michael)
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|—-Senior Messaging Angels, e.g Gabriel (Angels with dispute capabilities)
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|—-Other Messaging Angels (No authority except to deliver a message and return at any cost)
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|—-Minor Angels (Service Angels – no authority outside of their explicit role)
The Doctrine of Angels will only confuse you further Istari.
It has deceived many people, dont be one of them.Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 05 2011,10:23) Quote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,00:16) Kathi, no, the SON COULD NOT have ALWAYS EXISTED – why are you saying this….Where do you get any evidence to say a SON EXIST BEFORE BEING CREATED as a SON….this is PURELY ILLOGICAL.
Why would a Son exist – then he would not be a SON He would be a GOD…see you turn logic against itself.
If the Son ALWAYS EXISTED then he would be a GOD. Why would a Son exist FROM ETERNITY, HOW CNA A SON EXIST FROM ETERNITY – He would have to be created at Some point to be a SON – then perhaps you want to change the definition of SON – Proceeding from a Father.
you want to change it to ETERNALLY CREATED…maybe – you define what a Son is then?
Istari,
You are almost there!You said:
Quote Why would a Son exist – then he would not be a SON He would be a GOD…see you turn logic against itself. He would be a begotten God. And His Father would be the never begotten God or unbegotten God as many of the early church father's said.
Also, the Son was not created…He always existed and was in a pre-begotten state within the Father until He was begotten. Only God can always exist and only a 'begotten God' can always exist and be begotten at some point.
I Totally agree.Istari assumes that the “Son was Created”
Not true, actually the role of Son cannot even be exist until he has a Father to beget him as such.In other words, Before time began, there was no such thing as a Trinity. God was not a Father, nor Son, nor Holy spirit, he was simply the Eternal God existing above time and space, the Almighty.
Istari says that we cant understand God with human concepts.
But the fact is that God has participated within our World that has restrictions and limitations, and the way God has demonstrated himself from his Eternal power is through is Role as Father, Son, and Holy spirit.This almighty God is not God just of the Mighty things but the lesser things as well, so he can be “All in All”
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 06 2011,05:12) I Totally agree. Istari assumes that the “Son was Created”
Not true, actually the role of Son cannot even be exist until he has a Father to beget him as such.In other words, Before time began, there was no such thing as a Trinity. God was not a Father, nor Son, nor Holy spirit, he was simply the Eternal God existing above time and space, the Almighty.
Istari says that we cant understand God with human concepts.
But the fact is that God has participated within our World that has restrictions and limitations, and the way God has demonstrated himself from his Eternal power is through is Role as Father, Son, and Holy spirit.This almighty God is not God just of the Mighty things but the lesser things as well, so he can be “All in All”
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,11:03) Hi SF, Keep asking questions, SF, that's how you learn!
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,19:57)
(i think you need to start asking logical questions of you own, because it seems that you need to learn as well)
Hi SF,Please enlighten us…
What was YHVH before the world, if not the “HolySpirit”?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 06 2011,00:01) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 06 2011,05:12) I Totally agree. Istari assumes that the “Son was Created”
Not true, actually the role of Son cannot even be exist until he has a Father to beget him as such.In other words, Before time began, there was no such thing as a Trinity. God was not a Father, nor Son, nor Holy spirit, he was simply the Eternal God existing above time and space, the Almighty.
Istari says that we cant understand God with human concepts.
But the fact is that God has participated within our World that has restrictions and limitations, and the way God has demonstrated himself from his Eternal power is through is Role as Father, Son, and Holy spirit.This almighty God is not God just of the Mighty things but the lesser things as well, so he can be “All in All”
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 03 2011,11:03) Hi SF, Keep asking questions, SF, that's how you learn!
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Jan. 03 2011,19:57)
(i think you need to start asking logical questions of you own, because it seems that you need to learn as well)
Hi SF,Please enlighten us…
What was YHVH before the world, if not the “HolySpirit”?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
God. duh.
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