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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,09:08) WJs Contention is their is no scripture that proves Jesus had a beginning.
Yes, that is your contention. We are in the process of showing you the errors of your beliefs. But we are doing it ONE POINT AT A TIME. Just like our other debate. And so far we can't get past the first point in which you contend that since Jesus wasn't called monogenes before flesh it is some kind of proof that he wasn't. You say that if I think he was based ONLY on this evidence, it is only conjecture. True, but if you think he wasn't based ONLY on this evidence, it is equally conjecture on your part. Which puts us back to square one in my book, but you aren't happy with that. You want to insist that somehow, by two conjectures cancelling each other out, you still come out with the upper hand. How exactly does that work?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:09) But that's not good enough for you for some reason.
Mike thats right because you can't disprove a fact with conjecture!WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,09:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:09) IS THAT PROOF THAT HE WASN'T? NO.
Mike we are talking about facts not unknowns or conjecture.FACT…no scritpure applies the word “Monogenes” to Jesus untill after he came in the flesh.
Conjecture…it could have been! He still could have been the “Monogenes” Son of God before he came in the flesh. Just because its not in scripture doesn't mean it isn't true.
We are discussing scripture and not what could be or could have been or what you think it is!!!
WJ
You are so irritating. I addressed this in my very first response to your point “a” on page 1.Quote God Almighty was not known as YHVH until the time of Moses. Does that mean He was NOT YHVH until the time of Moses? Or does it just mean that mankind didn't know Him as YHVH until He told Moses that was His name? Fact….no scripture applies the name YHVH to God until the time of Moses.
Conjecture….His name STILL COULD HAVE BEEN YHVH BEFORE WE KNEW ABOUT IT.
What is so hard about this?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:20) True, but if you think he wasn't based ONLY on this evidence, it is equally conjecture on your part.
That is not my contention.My contention is you have no scripture that proves he had a beginning before time.
So far it is a fact that “monogenes” in referring to Jesus does not prove he had a beginning.
You are hard headed Mike.
I am not trying to prove Jesus didn't have a beginning based on the use of the word “Monogenes”. The burden of proof is on you to show where the scritpures say he did.
I have John 1:1 that says he was with the Father before time which is eternity!
So come on with your proof.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,09:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:09) IS THAT PROOF THAT HE WASN'T? NO.
Mike we are talking about facts not unknowns or conjecture.FACT…no scritpure applies the word “Monogenes” to Jesus untill after he came in the flesh.
Conjecture…it could have been! He still could have been the “Monogenes” Son of God before he came in the flesh. Just because its not in scripture doesn't mean it isn't true.
We are discussing scripture and not what could be or could have been or what you think it is!!!
WJ
You are so irritating. I addressed this in my very first response to your point “a” on page 1.Quote God Almighty was not known as YHVH until the time of Moses. Does that mean He was NOT YHVH until the time of Moses? Or does it just mean that mankind didn't know Him as YHVH until He told Moses that was His name? Fact….no scripture applies the name YHVH to God until the time of Moses.
Conjecture….His name STILL COULD HAVE BEEN YHVH BEFORE WE KNEW ABOUT IT.
What is so hard about this?
mike
MikeUnless you can prove it, it is still conjecture. And as SF has pointed out YHWH is a name, “monogenes” speaks of the nature “after its own kind”.
You are tying to make null a valid fact by a statement that is based on conjecture!
Fact… Monogenes is not applied to Jesus until after he came in the flesh!
Conjecture…YHWH could have had the name YHWH before Moses!
WJ
Hi WJ,
After much unecessarily waisted time, we have closure on your point “a”. To summarize, you asserted I can't prove Jesus was the only begotten Son of God from ONLY the fact that he wasn't known as that before he came in flesh. I said that although he was called that in Psalm 2:7, I agree that no one at that time knew that it was Jesus who was talked about. I agreed (immediately and directly) with your assertion.
I asked you if the fact that we didn't KNOW Jesus was the only begotten Son of God until he came in the flesh was proof that he WASN'T the only begotten Son of God BEFORE that time. You have stated that this fact ONLY is NOT proof that Jesus couldn't have already been the only begotten Son of God.
So, on to your point “b”.
Quote b. We have but you are not listening! It doesn’t matter if you say that Jesus was “begotten” before Jesus came in the flesh or not, for three reasons… 1. As you just admitted, “Monogenes” is never given to Jesus before he came in the flesh.
2. There is no scripture that says Jesus had a beginning but in fact says that he was there in the beginning with the Father which means he was there before time. Time, Space and matter are part of the all things that came into existence by him. John 1:3.
What is before time Mike? Its called eternity!
3. The church Fathers including the earliest and most credible, “Ignatius” never speaks of Jesus having a beginning and in fact as I have shown Ignatius said…
There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, BORN AND UNBORN, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. 7:2
Here we see Ignatius claiming Jesus was “UNBORN” and God in man both Spirit and flesh! I think Ignatius knows more than Eusebius about Jesus origin since he is close to John who wrote John 1:1, don't you?
Your point “b” is broken up into three points. I will answer them a point at a time.
B-1.
Quote 1. As you just admitted, “Monogenes” is never given to Jesus before he came in the flesh. This is a null and void point both because of Psalm 2:7 and our agreement that it proves nothing.
So I will move on to B-2.
Quote 2. There is no scripture that says Jesus had a beginning but in fact says that he was there in the beginning with the Father which means he was there before time. Time, Space and matter are part of the all things that came into existence by him. John 1:3. B-2 First part:
Quote There is no scripture that says Jesus had a beginning First, there are many scriptures that tell us Jesus had a beginning. (Psalm 2:7; John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9; Col 1:15; Rev 3:14; Prov 8:12,22,25-26) I will discuss any of them with you Keith, but pick ONE AT A TIME. Better yet, let's wait on these scriptures until after we do your B-3. There's no sense discussing them now since we disagree on the meaning of “monogenes” and “prototokos pasa ktisis”. Agreed?
B-2 Second part:
Quote but in fact says that he was there in the beginning with the Father which means he was there before time. You assert that since the Word was in the beginning with God, he was before time. Genesis 1:1 says, 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Were the heavens and the earth also “before time”?
Does Genesis nullify your “beginning” theory as NOT proof that Jesus DID NOT have a beginning?
B-2 Third part:
Quote Time, Space and matter are part of the all things that came into existence by him. John 1:3. This is conjecture on your part. I find it hard to believe that John had an accurate understanding of Einsteins' theory of relativity or the space/time continuum in the 1st century. And despite what Dennison tries to assert, none of us know anything about whether God exists “in time” or “outside of time” or “within space” or “outside of space”. So while I seriously doubt John had “time and space” in mind when he said that,
Is it a POSSIBILITY that Jesus could have been begotten before time, and then God created time and space and matter through him?
Listen, Keith. These are points that YOU made and my rebuttals of them. Deal with ONLY these points and my rebuttals, please. In other words, I shouldn't see anything about Ignatius in your next post.
I have bolded the questions that I specifically want answered.peace and love,
mikeMike
So you think that if you just regurgitate the same thing that you are just going to move away from my point?
Not so Mike. Either you concede that my first point is a valid point and not null and void or we will continue until it is.
You insist on addressing things “one point at a time”.
Your answer is not satisfactory.
So I restate my position…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,05:56) Wrong, because it proves what I have said all along that you cannot say “Monogenes” is proof Jesus had a beginning.
What part of this statement do you not understand Mike?You have already agreed the term “Monogenes” was not applied to Jesus before he came in the flesh.
I said…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010 @ 10:39)
Was the term “Monogenes” ever given to Jesus before his natural birth?
And you said…Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 17 2010 @ 20:45)
Not that scripture records.
Since the term “Monogenes” means “only, of the same kind” Son of God, then you further clarified this by saying…Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2010,22:22) I CANNOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO PROVING JESUS WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD PRIOR TO HIS COMING IN FLESH WITH ONLY THE FACT THAT HE WASN'T CALLED THAT UNTIL HE CAME IN THE FLESH. AND I WILLINGLY ADMIT THAT. THAT IS WHY I WON'T USE THIS INFO AS MY FOUNDATION – GET IT?
Why are you stubornly ignoring the facts?The point was…
a. Thank you. Then end of discussion right? Your confession here now means that anytime you say that the word Monogenes applies to Jesus before he came in the flesh is merely conjecture on your part.
Can a moderator please help this guy see the truth about my claim here so we can move on to the debate?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,17:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:20) True, but if you think he wasn't based ONLY on this evidence, it is equally conjecture on your part.
That is not my contention.My contention is you have no scripture that proves he had a beginning before time.
So far it is a fact that “monogenes” in referring to Jesus does not prove he had a beginning.
You are hard headed Mike.
I am not trying to prove Jesus didn't have a beginning based on the use of the word “Monogenes”. The burden of proof is on you to show where the scritpures say he did.
I have John 1:1 that says he was with the Father before time which is eternity!
So come on with your proof.
WJ
Bump!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,17:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2010,09:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,17:09) IS THAT PROOF THAT HE WASN'T? NO.
Mike we are talking about facts not unknowns or conjecture.FACT…no scritpure applies the word “Monogenes” to Jesus untill after he came in the flesh.
Conjecture…it could have been! He still could have been the “Monogenes” Son of God before he came in the flesh. Just because its not in scripture doesn't mean it isn't true.
We are discussing scripture and not what could be or could have been or what you think it is!!!
WJ
You are so irritating. I addressed this in my very first response to your point “a” on page 1.Quote God Almighty was not known as YHVH until the time of Moses. Does that mean He was NOT YHVH until the time of Moses? Or does it just mean that mankind didn't know Him as YHVH until He told Moses that was His name? Fact….no scripture applies the name YHVH to God until the time of Moses.
Conjecture….His name STILL COULD HAVE BEEN YHVH BEFORE WE KNEW ABOUT IT.
What is so hard about this?
mike
MikeUnless you can prove it, it is still conjecture. And as SF has pointed out YHWH is a name, “monogenes” speaks of the nature “after its own kind”.
You are tying to make null a valid fact by a statement that is based on conjecture!
Fact… Monogenes is not applied to Jesus until after he came in the flesh!
Conjecture…YHWH could have had the name YHWH before Moses!
WJ
Bump!Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 05 2010,19:47) Is God eternal?
Hi Dennison,Yes. Moses says He (not they) is “from everlasting to everlasting”. Jesus, on the other hand wasn't originally created eternal, for Paul says:
“For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again…”
This shows that Christ was not originally created immortal. He could, and did die. He has now been granted immortality by his God.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,20:31) Listen, Keith. These are points that YOU made and my rebuttals of them. Deal with ONLY these points and my rebuttals, please. In other words, I shouldn't see anything about Ignatius in your next post. I have bolded the questions that I specifically want answered.
OK MikeSo if I deal with your points and questions which are from you dealing with my points, and then you deal with my points that is dealing with your points that was dealing with my points then we get what you call “a lightening post”.
So at what point will you bail out again and restart?
Surely mike you are more intelligent than this, that you cannot see what I am saying?
So why should I continue to play your deceitful game?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2010,12:31) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 05 2010,19:47) Is God eternal?
Hi Dennison,Yes. Moses says He (not they) is “from everlasting to everlasting”. Jesus, on the other hand wasn't originally created eternal, for Paul says:
“For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again…”
This shows that Christ was not originally created immortal. He could, and did die. He has now been granted immortality by his God.
mike
This is a lie and a distortion of the truth!Jesus was put to death in the flesh, his Spirit did not die!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2010,04:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2010,12:31) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 05 2010,19:47) Is God eternal?
Hi Dennison,Yes. Moses says He (not they) is “from everlasting to everlasting”. Jesus, on the other hand wasn't originally created eternal, for Paul says:
“For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again…”
This shows that Christ was not originally created immortal. He could, and did die. He has now been granted immortality by his God.
mike
This is a lie and a distortion of the truth!Jesus was put to death in the flesh, his Spirit did not die!
WJ
Hmmm….it's right there in the scripture Keith. Was Paul lying?mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2010,04:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2010,20:31) Listen, Keith. These are points that YOU made and my rebuttals of them. Deal with ONLY these points and my rebuttals, please. In other words, I shouldn't see anything about Ignatius in your next post. I have bolded the questions that I specifically want answered.
OK MikeSo if I deal with your points and questions which are from you dealing with my points, and then you deal with my points that is dealing with your points that was dealing with my points then we get what you call “a lightening post”.
So at what point will you bail out again and restart?
Surely mike you are more intelligent than this, that you cannot see what I am saying?
So why should I continue to play your deceitful game?
WJ
Keith, we have dedicated pages and pages to this post and got nowhere. Post however much info you want in response to my post. All I ask is that you DIRECTLY answer only the bolded questions I have asked.I, in return, will answer ONLY your points and questions that are DIRECTLY related to my bolded questions or your answers to them.
In other words, this particular point you made has nothing to do with Ignatius, so we will get to him later – when your Ingatius point is addressed by me.
It's like you say the word black starts with a “p”. And then I show scripture or logic that shows it doesn't start with a “p”. And in your response to my rebuttal about black, you must include red, green, blue, and every other color. And I'm saying, “Hold your horses, we will get to the other colors as soon as we get closure on black.” But you keep bringing up all of the colors in every post you write even though we are ONLY dealing with black right now. I'm not avoiding the other colors, I just don't want our thoughts on black to get clouded by all the other colors. ONE POINT AT A TIME.
So you can post as long or short as you want, but I will only answer what deals with the point at hand. If Dennison decides that one of your points that I ignored actually deals with “black”, then I will respect his request that I answer it. I assume you will respect his requests that you answer my bolded points DIRECTLY and to the point. So please answer my last post DIRECTLY AND TO THE POINT WITHOUT UNRELATED INFO.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2010,22:31) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 05 2010,19:47) Is God eternal?
Hi Dennison,Yes. Moses says He (not they) is “from everlasting to everlasting”.
Than you just agreed with this,Quote And despite what Dennison tries to assert, none of us know anything about whether God exists “in time” or “outside of time” or “within space” or “outside of space”. So while I seriously doubt John had “time and space” in mind when he said that IF God is eternal, automaticly you agree that God is above time, above space.
you can know that God is above everything therefore outside of time, outside of space.
its called omnipresence
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2010,13:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2010,04:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2010,12:31) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 05 2010,19:47) Is God eternal?
Hi Dennison,Yes. Moses says He (not they) is “from everlasting to everlasting”. Jesus, on the other hand wasn't originally created eternal, for Paul says:
“For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again…”
This shows that Christ was not originally created immortal. He could, and did die. He has now been granted immortality by his God.
mike
This is a lie and a distortion of the truth!Jesus was put to death in the flesh, his Spirit did not die!
WJ
Hmmm….it's right there in the scripture Keith. Was Paul lying?mike
MikeNo he was not lying, but your definition of death is to cease to exist which is a major flaw!
WJ
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 06 2010,06:19) IF God is eternal, automaticly you agree that God is above time, above space.
And how do you KNOW (and I don't mean THINK YOU KNOW) that time itself isn't eternal? How do you know that time hasn't existed all along and that God hasn't always existed within it? When did time begin? How do you know that what we call time isn't a part of the makeup of God Himself, in which case it has always existed? Does scripture specifically say that in the beginning there was no time clock ticking and then one day God “turned on the clock”?This is where you get off on your quasi-physics OPINIONS. What mankind thinks it knows of the abstract principal of time and space can fit on a pin head.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2010,13:52) Keith, we have dedicated pages and pages to this post and got nowhere. Post however much info you want in response to my post. All I ask is that you DIRECTLY answer only the bolded questions I have asked. I, in return, will answer ONLY your points and questions that are DIRECTLY related to my bolded questions or your answers to them.
This is exactly what we have been doing Mike both in this thread and the debates thread and several times you have bailed out of the discussion and whining about mine being to long and then starting all over, when I was merely answering your points which was answering my points which was answering your points and on and on! That is what a debate is about.You can't expect an opponent to answer all of your points and then just stick to one of theirs!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2010,14:36) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 06 2010,06:19) IF God is eternal, automaticly you agree that God is above time, above space.
And how do you KNOW (and I don't mean THINK YOU KNOW) that time itself isn't eternal?
MikeBecause “time” has a beginning and has an end!
Eternity doesn't.
This is elementary stuff!
WJ
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