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Mike
i find something here i did not understand could you tell me the exact verse in revelation were it is God that you guys talk about, in chap;21
Quote If your were trying to meet some girl, and I went over and told her how great you were, it would be me revealing you to her, but that doesn't mean that I AM YOU REVEALED.
This is where we disagree. This is THE CORE of the issue, and i would like to stick to this point right here.
Now we can clearrly see where we are.
Jesus did not only tell us about God, but knew everything about him. Even if you told a girl about me, you wuoldnt be able to her EVERYTHING about me, its just not possible, and you couldnt possibly know everythign about me, nor understand everything, unless you WERE me. There are times that people feel the same as one, because of shared expierences. Though Christ is a entirely differnt playign field, he knew God from head to toe, he lived and breathed God, and he knew they were one. he knows God like the back of his hand, which is something that cannot be entirely possible without dieing.
Because he knew God, and demonstrated that everythign he knew abotu God, he acted just like him.
In other words if God did come down in flesh in the same level as us, he would act like Jesus.
Jesus did everythign that God would do, and therefore is God revealed by his own living testimony, but not Elohim.
Jesus is the way the Truth and the Light,
Everything that we need from God is found in him.This isnt someone who just simply knew some perception of God enough to talk about him, He knows and breaths God.
He told the deciples when you see him, you see the Father.
Fact: Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God.
What is that Image, the we he lived life. His testimony.
Can we see Jesus now? no of course not, than what is the image he left behind for us to see? his testimony! what he did! this demonstrates the Image of the invisble God.
Becuase through that testimony we can be saved.If we ever try to think about God, we think about Jesus, for he is the only one who could ever demonstrate such Character and perfection.
Quote Many things, but not “everything”. The OT gives many insights into who our God is before Jesus came to FURTHER make Him known. What Jesus taught + the OT is as much knowledge of God as we are allowed to know right now.
The bible is clear that NO ONE knows Elohim, no eye has ever seen him. It seems to me that there are circumstances that God was known through expierences through the heros from the Old testament (Jehovah), but through something.
So Jesus did not give further insight, but gave THE insight.
(****sry i posted too soon in accident)Quote So Abraham never really had a relationship with God? Didn't God say Abraham was His friend? How about Moses? Didn't God tell Aaron and Miriam that he spoke “face to face” with Moses?
Not as the Father, but as God, and yes, his Friend.
Again re-read what i said Mike, look at the details,
let me rephrase it for your understanding, we can only have a relatoinship with God as the Father “abba” through the Son Jesus Christ.Quote It wasn't until much later that Jesus was needed as a mediator BETWEEN us and God. Do you see that Dennison? Jesus isn't God, but someone who speaks TO HIM IN OUR BEHALF.
What? I didnt understand this. Jesus was needed as soon as Man sinned. Thats the same arguemetn i would use abuot God being a healer. God wasnt always a healer, becuase pain at one point didnt exist. So now God is healer beacuse pain does exist. argueing Gods potential that manifests depends on the circumstance.Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 07 2010,09:22) Mike i find something here i did not understand could you tell me the exact verse in revelation were it is God that you guys talk about, in chap;21
Remeber terrarica this is a debate thread.
you should have Pm us instead.But its Ch 21
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.Quote Question: Do you agree that saying Jesus “is God revealed” does not really match up with the fact that Jesus (someone other than God) revealed God to us?
It does match us because its not someone other than God. Its someone who is a revelation of God but not everything.The Example
Let me try to make an example so you can understand what im saying.
My body (the knowable) exists and my demonstrates my actions, motiviations and desires, and with my mouth i speak
how i feel and communitcate, My identity is the intellect (personality) (in relations to elohim) inside the body.Though you might meet me one time in person, and though you know the body of Dennison and his outside behavior
but you do not know the “Totality” every single unspoken thought, feelings, or past events that make up who i Am.
therefore to know more of who i am, you would need to have a relationship with me, some kind of bond, to learn more about me in time.
So the body (Jesus) and the intellect behind it all (Elohim)
My body is the knowable part of the unknowable intellect, becuase you will never know everything nor every single thing about me. If you did it would kill you. the only person who knows everything that you have experienced as the person who as expierced is yourself, no one else. The only person who can understand every though you have and everything you have done, thought, and felt is yourself.
Your only predictable when someone gets to knows you.
But to act exactly like you is impossible.My body isnt my everything, but its part of what demonstrates who i am. My body is the Impression of me.
The real me is the unspoken, the unseen.Its the same as i see it with God.
Though God is the Intellect the unknowbable perfect spirit, Jesus is the Revealer of the Spirit.
Making the one and the same in personality, becaues the body is limited yet differnt because the body is not the totality.please anwer this one question,
Did you understand my example? Yes, if you didnt let me know what confused you? And im sorry if i wasnt any more clear, or if my grammer sucked, or anything along those lines.Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 07 2010,15:22) Mike i find something here i did not understand could you tell me the exact verse in revelation were it is God that you guys talk about, in chap;21
We agree that 21:6 is God saying He is the Alpha and Omega, not Jesus.Hi Dennison,
You asked:
Quote Did you understand my example? Yes, if you didnt let me know what confused you? And im sorry if i wasnt any more clear, or if my grammer sucked, or anything along those lines.
I understand what you THINK…..but I don't agree with your outcome that Jesus is “God revealed”.You often make claims to support your thoughts that there is no way in the world that you can know for sure. For example:
Quote you will never know everything nor every single thing about me. If you did it would kill you.
What?!? What does that even mean, and how in the world could you KNOW that?Quote Making the one and the same in personality, becaues the body is limited yet differnt because the body is not the totality.
Why do you think Jesus has the same personality as God? Read how God deals with people in the OT and compare it to how Jesus talked to people in the NT. Jesus does what he has seen the Father doing, for he tells us this. But why would Jesus have the same exact personality as his Father? My kid isn't a “clone” of me. He is alot like me in many ways, but is his own being, and has his own personality. Why would it be any different with God and His Son?Quote Jesus did not only tell us about God, but knew everything about him.
Again, where did you learn that? Only the Father knows the “day and hour”, not the Son. So it's obvious the Father knows things the Son doesn't. What proof do you have that the Son knows EVERYTHING about the Father? The Father existed before the Son, so I would assume He has memories and experiences that the Son has no clue about. Or it could be that the Father has told him everything…..but either way, you can't just make the statement as if it's fact.Quote In other words if God did come down in flesh in the same level as us, he would act like Jesus.
Just more of the same. These are just your OPINIONS, Dennison. You don't KNOW any of this for sure.There's more, but that's enough to make my point.
Jesus revealed God to us, so you say he is “God revealed”. John revealed the future to us, so is John “the future revealed”?
Don't read more into it or make your own opinions out to be facts. Jesus (one being) revealed his Father and God (a different being) to us. That's all it says Dennison.
(Did you notice I was careful to put “it says” at the end of the sentence?
I didn't want you spazzing out and thinking I meant, “I think this….and that's all there is to it!” 
)mike
I made an example so you can understand what i mean.
so when i answer your questions, you can understand where i stand in the issue.Quote Quote you will never know everything nor every single thing about me. If you did it would kill you.
What?!? What does that even mean, and how in the world could you KNOW that?
Its simple logic, is it possible for you to know every single thought that i have had? is it possible to know everything detail of what i have expiernecd in my life? and that information is so much, that for you to know such a thing would mean that you are Dennison. Its simple logic, and observation, how do we know gravity works? because everythign will fall down. its the same logic, its never been observed that the apple flys up. I have never observed someone knowing someone entirely as if they were that person without “getting” to know them.Quote Why do you think Jesus has the same personality as God? Read how God deals with people in the OT and compare it to how Jesus talked to people in the NT. Jesus does what he has seen the Father doing, for he tells us this. But why would Jesus have the same exact personality as his Father? My kid isn't a “clone” of me. He is alot like me in many ways, but is his own being, and has his own personality. Why would it be any different with God and His Son?
I Believe Jesus has the same personality of God because he has shown the same attributes, will, and goals. and above all else his love. but again limited to the demonstartion the testimony of that love. The body can never show the full aspect of what the mind is. The same way that Jesus only gives us perceptions of who God is, but not the whole thing because we know biblicaly that to be with God face to face is death. The OT represents alot about Jesus nature which is the same as Gods. the way he treated the heros of the bible and how he treated the sinners.Quote Again, where did you learn that? Only the Father knows the “day and hour”, not the Son. So it's obvious the Father knows things the Son doesn't. What proof do you have that the Son knows EVERYTHING about the Father? The Father existed before the Son, so I would assume He has memories and experiences that the Son has no clue about. Or it could be that the Father has told him everything…..but either way, you can't just make the statement as if it's fact. Quote
What the Father and the Son knows has nothing to do with it. Again we are not talking about knowledge but understanding personality. Jesus knew everything about how the Father behaves because he knows him, and demonstrates that same behavior. Jesus said himself he knew the father, and no one else does. you assume he has memories? an experiences? do you also have proof for this? The statement is based on the premise that Jesus said himself that he is the only one who knows him for who God really is. and when i say KNOW, its not having the same knowlege, its knowing and understanding who you are as a person/personality.
For Jesus Dwells in this personality.[quote]In other words if God did come down in flesh in the same level as us, he would act like Jesus.
Just more of the same. These are just your OPINIONS, Dennison. You don't KNOW any of this for sure.
could you say otherwise? How else would God act? I do know for sure, its based on this, Jesus is perfect therefore compelete, If Jesus is perfect why would God act any different for we know God is just as perfect? and Jesus did everything the father would do and ask him to do. So its for sure.Quote Jesus revealed God to us, so you say he is “God revealed”. John revealed the future to us, so is John “the future revealed”?
Jesus revealed the “FATHER” to us, he is God revealed because he demonstrates within his own testimony the love of God. John isnt a good example. Lets put me and you. IF you knew everything there is about me, and know me better than you know yourself, could you say your not me? if you were to put your brain in a different body and talked would that not be you? If Two people had the same personality, are they not the same person? What makes you, you?
If you were to demonstrate the same behavior, choices, and actions that i would make, what makes you a different person?Quote Jesus (one being) revealed his Father and God (a different being) to us. That's all it says Dennison.
So Jesus is human or what? What is the Son of God?
what is he? Where does it say he is one being other than God? He always says he is ONE with God, and he never seperated him self from God.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 08 2010,17:31) Where does it say he is one being other than God? He always says he is ONE with God, and he never seperated him self from God.
Hi Dennison,Well, first we can start with that “logic” you were just talking about. Jesus is God's SON. Do you know of any sons that are a part of the same being as their father? Weren't we all created in God's image?
Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God, therefore Jesus is NOT that God, correct?
Let's start with those for now.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2010,08:06) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 08 2010,17:31) Where does it say he is one being other than God? He always says he is ONE with God, and he never seperated him self from God.
Hi Dennison,Well, first we can start with that “logic” you were just talking about. Jesus is God's SON. Do you know of any sons that are a part of the same being as their father? Weren't we all created in God's image?
Jesus says the Father is the ONLY true God, therefore Jesus is NOT that God, correct?
Let's start with those for now.
mike
Not correct Mike, ill answer your three questions.1.Your talking about the Son as if he was created. First of all the “son” was not needed until man sinned, and God was not our father until Jesus revealed him to be the father. As you said many times within our debates, anything is possible for God, so whether the human logic if a human “father” and “son” are the same being is irrevelant. Jesus never states to be someone SEPERATE from the father, but ONE with the father, he ALWAYS is with the Father.
2. We were created in the likenss of Gods image, but we were never the exact image of God. Jesus was always the Image of God. And either way, the orginal image that we had was corrupted a long time ago, and now we have the carnal image.
3. Jesus also says when you see him, you see the Father, if we were to follow that same logic he is that God. He is God revealed.
(by the way i found another verse that says that Jesus is the Alpha… Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Just saying)SF:
Quote 1.Your talking about the Son as if he was created.
And why wouldn't I? Is there a scripture that implies something different?SF:
Quote 2. We were created in the likenss of Gods image, but we were never the exact image of God.
Actually, scripture says we were made in “God's image”, not “the LIKENESS” of that image. But the point is why would God consist of one being that is both Father and Son when none of us do? Why would “Father” mean something different to the One who taught us language than it means to us? The same applys to “Son”.SF:
Quote 3. Jesus also says when you see him, you see the Father, if we were to follow that same logic he is that God. He is God revealed.
Jesus represented everything the Father is to mankind – who are unable to actually look upon God Himself. “No one has EVER seen God”, yet you disagree with that scripture by asserting we have seen God.
SF:
Quote (by the way i found another verse that says that Jesus is the Alpha… Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Just saying)
Yeah, I found one too! Rev 3:14 says Jesus is the beginning…..OF THE CREATION OF GOD!peace and love,
mikehey Mike,
Quote And why wouldn't I? Is there a scripture that implies something different?
Yes lets debate that all out in the other thread.Quote Actually, scripture says we were made in “God's image”, not “the LIKENESS” of that image. But the point is why would God consist of one being that is both Father and Son when none of us do? Why would “Father” mean something different to the One who taught us language than it means to us? The same applys to “Son”.
Are you Father? are you also a Son?
Genesis 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.Quote Jesus represented everything the Father is to mankind – who are unable to actually look upon God Himself. “No one has EVER seen God”, yet you disagree with that scripture by asserting we have seen God.
Umm no….
Actually 2 Timonthy speaks of the light that no one has seen, and that there is only ONE that dwellls in that light.
Point is, we know of him that dwells in the light, but we have never seen THE light. but knowing him , that knows Him, is almost like knowing Him.Quote Yeah, I found one too! Rev 3:14 says Jesus is the beginning…..OF THE CREATION OF GOD!
He is the Beginning!!!! teheheheSF:
Quote Are you Father? are you also a Son?
Really Dennison? Not only is that logic faulty, but actually quite silly. Yes I am a father to my son…..we are not the same being. And I am a son to my dad…….we are also not the same being.SF:
Quote Genesis 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Okay, I stand half corrected and so do you. We are made in the image of God or the likeness of God……not the likeness OF the image of God.SF:
Quote Umm no….
Actually 2 Timonthy speaks of the light that no one has seen, and that there is only ONE that dwellls in that light.
Point is, we know of him that dwells in the light, but we have never seen THE light. but knowing him , that knows Him, is almost like knowing Him.
Very good. Jesus was the exact representation of God, so knowing Jesus is ALMOST like knowing God. But if Jesus WAS God, then knowing him would be exactly the same as knowing God……so you have spoke correctly.SF:
Quote He is the Beginning!!!! tehehehe
But once again, it is in referrence TO something specific, right? Just like I said when he is called the first and the last……it is always in referrence to something specific. BTW, what is it in referrence to? Oh that's right, he is the beginning OF the creation of his God. He was the first to be created. peace and love,
mikeGrandpa Mike,
Quote Really Dennison? Not only is that logic faulty, but actually quite silly. Yes I am a father to my son…..we are not the same being. And I am a son to my dad…….we are also not the same being.
Its amazing that your a Father to a Son, and at the very same time a Son to Father.
a Miracle How do you do it?Quote Okay, I stand half corrected and so do you. We are made in the image of God or the likeness of God……not the likeness OF the image of God
Ok Great =) now you understand where im coming from.
Quote Very good. Jesus was the exact representation of God, so knowing Jesus is ALMOST like knowing God. But if Jesus WAS God, then knowing him would be exactly the same as knowing God……so you have spoke correctly.
LOL mike but thats what i been saying the whole time?
Yet you believe they are different people, im saying that Jesus is the exact represenation of God, the only thing that makes the different at the moment would be one is more limited than the other.
but thats because he is the Knowable to the Unknowable God.
To know something about God is a limitation.
What i know right now about God is SMALL compared to EVERYTHING that he is.
And everything i know about God is through Jesus.Quote But once again, it is in referrence TO something specific, right? Just like I said when he is called the first and the last……it is always in referrence to something specific. BTW, what is it in referrence to? Oh that's right, he is the beginning OF the creation of his God. He was the first to be created.
Actually 1:18 says he is the HEAD, the FIRST, THE BEGINNING (Alpha teheheheh MUHAHAHAA) and the PREEMINENT!! This the Reference !!Much love mike!
How about the one we both just made? We apparently agree that knowing Jesus is ALMOST like knowing God.
Therefore Jesus is one entity, and God is a different one, right?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2010,08:51) How about the one we both just made? We apparently agree that knowing Jesus is ALMOST like knowing God. Therefore Jesus is one entity, and God is a different one, right?
mike
Mike we almost have the same aspect but its different by this means.Ok I have a Father.
This is what yuor stating, (i think)
That your getting to know my father better by getting to know me?This is not what i believe,
I believe that you willl get to know me by having a relationship with ME.
Even though you wont know everything about me, you will have known a part of me, not everything because thats impossible.Thats all there is to it.
Jesus is the KNOWN, or what you could get to know about God.Hi Dennis the Menace
You are fairly correct about what I think. The Prophets and the Law taught us a little about who God is. By existing along with his God and being at His right hand for…..who knows how many years?……..Jesus knows his Father and God better than any human being can know Him……for now at least.
I don't think I'm getting to know God better by getting to know Jesus. I am getting to know God better by listening to what the one who knows God the best taught us about our God.
Jesus is my Lord and I love him with all of my heart, and he said that everlasting life meant the taking in of knowledge about him…..AND THE ONLY TRUE GOD – HIS FATHER.
But let's face it. Jesus didn't come to teach us about himself at all. He came to teach us more about his God. Think about all the personal things that Jesus taught us about himself. They were few and far between. His mission was to teach us about his God…..how to pray to him, what He said in the OT and how HIS prophesies were being fulfilled, about His coming Kingdom, how much He loves the world, what He is willing to do for those of us who overcome, etc.
Let's use your father/son analogy. Let's say your Father, to whom I was greatly indebted but fell out of touch with, sent you to show me what HE wanted from me as an employee of his, in order for me to collect the one million dollar bonus he was going to give me if I behaved appropriately and to HIS liking. You would then be a messenger OF your Father, telling me what HE had to say, not what you personally thought about any of it. In order to get back into HIS good graces, I had to listen to what you said that HE said to do.
You see, it isn't about me getting to know who YOU are specifically, but about me paying attention to every word you said because I knew those words came directly from HIM…..and that's who's good graces I wanted to get back into so I could collect my “bonus”.
But then you tell me that HE said the only way I was getting back into HIS good graces is if YOU judged me acceptable. You told me that HE had put you in charge of his affairs for a while. BUT…..(and here's the important part), you could not and would not do ANYTHING other than what HE would do in any given circumstance, because no matter how much control over HIS affairs HE gave you, you are now, and will always be an employee of HIM and must answer to HIM. YOU must either do things EXACTLY like HE would do them……or YOU'RE the one to get fired.
So here's where I'm at: I must follow what you do and say…..but only because you do everything exactly like your father does AND because your father is the one who laid that law down. You are not the one who has the “bonus” to give me, but you are the one who will judge for your father whether or not I'm worthy of that bonus.
And the bottom line is that you are still the son and employee and messenger of the really great one who has the bonus to give….your father. You do not have any bonusses yourself to give out, it's just that your father trusts your decision and has let you decide who is worthy of a bonus and who isn't. So you are neither the same being as your father, nor are you as “high up” as he is…..you still work for him like everyone else – you just have the highest postion in HIS office. So while both of you deserve the utmost respect, who do you think deserves more?
I've rambled on, but do you see how I believe from this?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2010,07:27) Hi Dennis the Menace You are fairly correct about what I think. The Prophets and the Law taught us a little about who God is. By existing along with his God and being at His right hand for…..who knows how many years?……..Jesus knows his Father and God better than any human being can know Him……for now at least.
I don't think I'm getting to know God better by getting to know Jesus. I am getting to know God better by listening to what the one who knows God the best taught us about our God.
Jesus is my Lord and I love him with all of my heart, and he said that everlasting life meant the taking in of knowledge about him…..AND THE ONLY TRUE GOD – HIS FATHER.
But let's face it. Jesus didn't come to teach us about himself at all. He came to teach us more about his God. Think about all the personal things that Jesus taught us about himself. They were few and far between. His mission was to teach us about his God…..how to pray to him, what He said in the OT and how HIS prophesies were being fulfilled, about His coming Kingdom, how much He loves the world, what He is willing to do for those of us who overcome, etc.
Let's use your father/son analogy. Let's say your Father, to whom I was greatly indebted but fell out of touch with, sent you to show me what HE wanted from me as an employee of his, in order for me to collect the one million dollar bonus he was going to give me if I behaved appropriately and to HIS liking. You would then be a messenger OF your Father, telling me what HE had to say, not what you personally thought about any of it. In order to get back into HIS good graces, I had to listen to what you said that HE said to do.
You see, it isn't about me getting to know who YOU are specifically, but about me paying attention to every word you said because I knew those words came directly from HIM…..and that's who's good graces I wanted to get back into so I could collect my “bonus”.
But then you tell me that HE said the only way I was getting back into HIS good graces is if YOU judged me acceptable. You told me that HE had put you in charge of his affairs for a while. BUT…..(and here's the important part), you could not and would not do ANYTHING other than what HE would do in any given circumstance, because no matter how much control over HIS affairs HE gave you, you are now, and will always be an employee of HIM and must answer to HIM. YOU must either do things EXACTLY like HE would do them……or YOU'RE the one to get fired.
So here's where I'm at: I must follow what you do and say…..but only because you do everything exactly like your father does AND because your father is the one who laid that law down. You are not the one who has the “bonus” to give me, but you are the one who will judge for your father whether or not I'm worthy of that bonus.
And the bottom line is that you are still the son and employee and messenger of the really great one who has the bonus to give….your father. You do not have any bonusses yourself to give out, it's just that your father trusts your decision and has let you decide who is worthy of a bonus and who isn't. So you are neither the same being as your father, nor are you as “high up” as he is…..you still work for him like everyone else – you just have the highest postion in HIS office. So while both of you deserve the utmost respect, who do you think deserves more?
I've rambled on, but do you see how I believe from this?
mike
Hi Mike boogers,(Tried to think of something, the first thing i could think of was boogers…… lol)
I believe that having a personal relationship with Jesus is getting to know God better.
Because everything comes through Jesus. He is our only means to God.
Because Jesus came to show us the Father, to reveal him as Father. And we didnt have that right until Jesus came.
He taught us so much about life, and how everlasting life is not found in the search for knowledge or in the search of Scriptures but in Christ who is the Redeemer of this world.
He Taught us how to Live and Love. He was the perfect model. He taught us how to depend on him, because thruogh his name we can reach God the Father.His True Mission was to redeem us, to save us, to come back to God. It was an outreach towards Gods beloved to be saved…
Ill use a Marriage analogy.
The Husband married a whore,
the Whore left the husband back to her wicked ways,
the Husband searched her out and paid the price to set her free.Jesus was the husband in search for his beloved.
What does listening to Jesus have anything to do with It?
Its because he DIED and was RESSURECTED is why you have any chance to be saved.in order to be in Gods good graces he has the see the blood of christ in you. He has to see his Son in you.
Christ IN you.that no longer i who live but Christ who lives in me.
Jesus was not a messenger, he was a Redeemer.
You were a slave, he was the one setting you free, and teaching you truth, because the Truth sets you free.
And to Get closer to God, he have to get closer to Jesus.In order to get to God the only way is through Jesus.
Jesus is the narrow way, God is the narrow Gate.
He is the only bridge that will take you to God.There is no other way, you can obey what he said all you want, but if Christ is not in you, than we cannot see the kingdom, becuase we are not worthy, but HE is.
We need Jesus, he is not just some prophet, he is not just someone who came to teach,
He is your Savouir your Redeemer your very reason why you live or have any chance of having eternal life.
This Jesus, is the only way.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Philipians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Both,
Please remember to scope your arguments concerning Jesus and God around the 'Spritual aspects', never in a fleshly manner, like a human. Remember that the Spirit is first, then the flesh.
Don't compare God and Jesus like A Father and Son…but a Father and Son like God and Jesus..otherwise you will project the fleshly aspect onto the Spirit rather than the reality, that the Spirit is projected onto the flesh..in a limited manner.
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