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Quote Hi Dennison, I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
I don't want to skip to the end. I agree with your point 1,2 & 3. I disagree with point #4.
Quote 4. And Christ has been the source in the beginning. Christ was the master craftsman who built for his God. His God was the source of everything, including him.
So I ask again: When is it said that all things come FROM Jesus or that Jesus is “the source” of all things like your point #4 asserts? In other words, can you support your point #4 with any scriptures? And like I said before, not scriptures that say things came THROUGH or BY MEANS OF Jesus, but one that says they came FROM Jesus.
mike
Mike,
great im glad we understand that there was a miscommunication.i said
Quote 4. And Christ has been the source in the beginning im going to write a very quick cf debate format of definitions so you can understand this. I want you to understand what im stating here. I know you hate long post. but i want you to understand what im saying.
Christ-Im speaking of Jesus before flesh.
Source-being the power, or the central part of something
“Any thing or place from which something comes, arises, or is obtained; origin: Which foods are sources of calcium?” dictionary.com
Beginning– The point of time when time began. Im not talking about any beginning, im talking about the begining when time was created, and when all creation was created.
“1.an act or circumstance of entering upon an action or state: the beginning of hostilities.
2. the point of time or space at which anything begins: the beginning of the Christian era; the beginning of the route.”In other words that Jesus before flesh is the source of life and creation sinced the Alpha.
My Scriptural backing.
Lets start with Collossians
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
This means things were done by him. As in from Him.
Therefore i reach the conclusion that Since Jesus is the Creator, therefore he is also the Source of life.
BY this scripture17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
All things consist of Jesus.
Therefore since ALL (the general fullnes we talked about before)
Consists of him, who is Jesus.
I dont see where it says through…..
but anyways idk if we agree if Jesus is the WORD. but lets say that you do agree i would also useJohn 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.I see scripture stating that Jesus is the creator, therefore the Source of life.
MY point four addresses he is the source of Life, but your question.
AS we agree abuot this already! the General ALL was in Jesus. Jesus created everything.
ITs clear he is the source of life, not only the breath of life, but the way in eternal life as well.and what the heck, why not go with Kjs reference about Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
God testimony persay of Jesus being responsible to create.agree or disagree?
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.much love mike,
Hi Dennison,
Let's start with Col 1:16. The word that many translations render as “by” is the Greek word “en”. OBST says:
En 2:537,233
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
en PrepositionDefinition
in, by, with etc.
King James Word Usage – Total: 2782
in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, miscellaneous 321One of the definitions not mentioned by the “etc” is the word “through” as can be seen by the 37 times the KJV translates the word “en” as “through”. This is the same word used in Col 1:17. John 1:3 has the word “dia” that has the primary definition of “through”.
So look at 1 Cor 8:6 KJV,
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The word “by” is “dia” again, which is better translated “through” like it is in the NIV and many others. But the word “of” is the Greek word “ek”. OBST says of “ek”,
Ek literal or figurative
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ek PrepositionDefinition
out of, from, by, away from
King James Word Usage – Total: 921
of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, miscellaneous 98It means “of” or “from”. When are all things said to come “from” Jesus? In contrast to all things being “of” Jesus, he himself is “of” his God. He is the Word OF his God, the Son OF his God, the Messiah OF his God, etc.
So for me, 1 Cor 8:6 speaks volumes by saying all things come FROM God and THROUGH or BY MEANS OF Jesus. And I think all the “dia”s and “en”s that trinity supporting translators render as “by” instead of “through” are misleading.
John 14:6 is saying that he is the life, for no one can come to the ultimate source of life except THROUGH him.
And John 6:51 says Jesus is the “bread of life” which we all know his God SENT to earth so we could eat of it. What is the ultimate “source” of that life? The bread that sustains us, or the One who provided that bread for us?
That is enough post for now. If there are points I missed, bring them up again, please.
Bottom line: No scripture says or even implies that Jesus is the “source” of all things. But there are many that say his God Jehovah is.
peace and love,
mikeps You did a beautiful job on this post. It was clear and concise and easy for me to understand what you were asking and claiming. Thank you. I understand your main claim of point #4 is that Jesus is also the “source” of all things. I still disagree. If you have more support of your belief, or if you think I haven't rebutted your previous scriptures clearly enough, hit me with it one scrip at at time, and we can break them all down individually.
Mike,
I think that this goes back to the thread of monogenes,
where someone mentioned dia,
i will do research on that,
because i have nothing to say to either refute or agree.basically my only option left is to determine what paul meant by “dia”
Point is that Jesus Created,
Again he is life. Things do consists of him, whether through or not, is yet to be determinedhere is something you didnt mention though.
Hebrews 1:10- what do you have to say about that.and last
should we continue to point 5 or not?P.s. Thank you, i had alot of time to write my last post,
I usually always multi tasking and its hard to find time.
so many times i make mistakes in grammer or idea.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 06 2010,05:57) here is something you didnt mention though.
Hebrews 1:10- what do you have to say about that.and last
should we continue to point 5 or not?
Not if I left a point you consider important unanswered.Heb 1:8-13,
8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.” 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.” 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?Take everything in context. Verse 8 calls Jesus “god”, but verse 9 makes clear that it is Jesus' God who set him on high.
Verse 10 MAYBE has Jesus laying the foundations of the earth, or it might be Paul talking of God in this passage. But let's say it is about Jesus. Proverbs 8 calls Jesus the “master craftsman” for his God. This is still in line with scripture that teaches us that all things come FROM God BY MEANS OF Jesus. So what if Jesus was the “tool” with which God created?
And verse 13 says Jesus is to sit at his God's right hand until his God sets Jesus' enemies down low. This is also in line with scripture that says God places who He wants up high or down low. And it again supports the fact that Jesus is lower than his God.
When you put all of Heb 1 (or the rest of Hebrews for that matter) together, it is clear that the writer (most likely Paul) did NOT think Jesus was God.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2010,00:19) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 06 2010,05:57) here is something you didnt mention though.
Hebrews 1:10- what do you have to say about that.and last
should we continue to point 5 or not?
Not if I left a point you consider important unanswered.Heb 1:8-13,
8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.” 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.” 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?Take everything in context. Verse 8 calls Jesus “god”, but verse 9 makes clear that it is Jesus' God who set him on high.
Verse 10 MAYBE has Jesus laying the foundations of the earth, or it might be Paul talking of God in this passage. But let's say it is about Jesus. Proverbs 8 calls Jesus the “master craftsman” for his God. This is still in line with scripture that teaches us that all things come FROM God BY MEANS OF Jesus. So what if Jesus was the “tool” with which God created?
And verse 13 says Jesus is to sit at his God's right hand until his God sets Jesus' enemies down low. This is also in line with scripture that says God places who He wants up high or down low. And it again supports the fact that Jesus is lower than his God.
When you put all of Heb 1 (or the rest of Hebrews for that matter) together, it is clear that the writer (most likely Paul) did NOT think Jesus was God.
mike
I dont understand how do you explain God calling Jesus God.
but whatever, lets not get into that yeti did consider the context,
i was more focused that God claimed that Jesus created,
I wasnt going further calling Jesus is God. (yet)Ok so do you want rebuttals or do you want to continue to point 5.
because the point of this thread was to clarify my points right?
i was more focused that God claimed that Jesus created,
I wasnt going further calling Jesus is God. (yet)Ok so do you want rebuttals or do you want to continue to point 5.
because the point of this thread was to clarify my points right?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 06 2010,06:26) i was more focused that God claimed that Jesus created,
I wasnt going further calling Jesus is God. (yet)Ok so do you want rebuttals or do you want to continue to point 5.
because the point of this thread was to clarify my points right?
Ooops! I copied your post to my response
This is what it should have said: You're right. I got off track with the rest of Heb 1. We are here to clarify your points and see if they are scripturally correct.
Your point #4 says that Jesus is the source of all things. Can you prove that? Him laying foundations after God told him what was to be done and how to do it and gave him the power and authority to get it done does not constitute Jesus being the source of all things.
For example, God filled Bezalel with knowledge and skills to build the earthly tabernacle in the desert. Was Bezalel the SOURCE of that tabernacle?
Again, is there a scripture that says all things came FROM Jesus? Is there a scripture that says what you imply – that Jesus is the SOURCE of all things?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2010,01:17) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 06 2010,06:26) i was more focused that God claimed that Jesus created,
I wasnt going further calling Jesus is God. (yet)Ok so do you want rebuttals or do you want to continue to point 5.
because the point of this thread was to clarify my points right?
Ooops! I copied your post to my response This is what it should have said: You're right. I got off track with the rest of Heb 1. We are here to clarify your points and see if they are scripturally correct.
Your point #4 says that Jesus is the source of all things. Can you prove that? Him laying foundations after God told him what was to be done and how to do it and gave him the power and authority to get it done does not constitute Jesus being the source of all things.
For example, God filled Bezalel with knowledge and skills to build the earthly tabernacle in the desert. Was Bezalel the SOURCE of that tabernacle?
Again, is there a scripture that says all things came FROM Jesus? Is there a scripture that says what you imply – that Jesus is the SOURCE of all things?
mike
Mike,
It goes back to what the terms “by” mean.
God didnt tell Jesus in Hebrews one that he told Jesus, it wasnt commanded. IT was clearly stated that Jesus created those things with his own hands by Gods testimony.
I still state that Jesus is literal life, because collosians expresses that all things consist of him, as in he sustains all things, and in John expresses that he is life.
Whether its general life, or eternal,
Jesus is that source.
He created.
Whether through or by, yet to be determined.Anyways my points i believe stands on the intent of the greek words that i told you i will look up later,
but anyways we are here to clarify all my points. So i think we should go to my next point.
i think when we finish we should revisit this point,because we agree that Jesus Created, but whether its was centrally just JEsus or God, depends on orginal greek interpretation.
Anyways point 5?
POINT 5
I said,Quote 5. Christ is the begining and the end, im going to try to organize myself correctly again.
CF Definitions.
Christ– Whether before flesh, and after ressurection
Is– occupying or existing or existing role
Beginning– The literal start of time, in greek Alpha.
End– The literal end of time, Where time does not exist, where the clock work of time would not exist, but comes to the end.My Scripture backing:
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.Basically Revelations expresses that Jesus is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. therefore i state that He is literally the beginning, in other words he is literal time, in some sense.
and viseversa, he is the end of everything that is temporal.if you agree that Jesus is the word i will add:
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1John 1:1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)In Conclusion, letting the scriptures speak for themselves, Jesus testifies that he is the beginning and that he is the end, and he is the start of general life, and the start of eternal life, and he is the end of all the things that are temporal and limiting.
Hello Mr. Forgiven,
You quote Rev 1:8 NIV,
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”This is obviously the Father talking for the Father is the only Almighty. He is the God of gods. (Deut 10:7, Psalm 136:2, Daniel 2:47, 11:36) Jesus calls the Father “my God” five times in Rev. So although Jesus is a god (mighty one) in his own right, there is only one mightiest of the mighty – the Almighty.
Rev 1:10-11 NIV,
10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”I couldn't find a Greek ms that had “the Alpha and Omega” in it. And the KJV and YLT are the only well known Bibles that have those words. See for yourself:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/1-11-compare.htmlRev 21:5-6 NIV,
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
The One who is seated on the throne in Rev is Jehovah. The Lamb takes the scroll from that One, remember? So again, this is the Father speaking.
Rev 22:13 NIV,
13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.This one causes lots of debate. The Father starts speaking directly to John in 21:3. Then an angel shows John New Jerusalem and speaks to him. Then the Father speaks some more, for there is nothing to imply it is anyone else speaking after the angel except the Father who was speaking before the angel. THEN, in 22:16, Jesus starts speaking again for it clearly says so. So again, it is the Father who says this.
And I do believe that Jesus was the Word of God and still is, so I'll answer your other verses.
John 1:1 Actual Greek
in beginning was the word and the word was with the god and god was the wordJohn clearly distinguishes between one, who is THE God, and the other, who is a god. The indefinite article “a” is implied like in many of the Greek scriptures.
Col 1:18-20 NIV,
18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.This one answers itself if you read far enough. Jesus is this, this and this…..Why? Because it PLEASED his God to do this, this and this THROUGH His Son, Jesus. But just for added measure, here is 1 Cor 11:3 NIV,
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.1 John 1:1-2 NIV,
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.Jesus is the way to eternal life. He is not the source of it, that is his God and our God, Jehovah. Go back and read Col 1:19-20 above again. God reconciled everything to Himself THROUGH His Son, Jesus. God is the source of all life, including Jesus'. And as far as the eternal part, Jesus is now eternal. He wasn't from his beginning though, for Paul says in Romans 6:9 NIV,
“For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again…”And Jesus says in Rev 1:18 NIV,
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.It seems your conclusion is based on faulty intepretations and translations, IMO. I'll wait for a rebuttal to my rebuttal. Please, one scripture or point at a time.
peace and love,
mikeHello Mr.Nintendo 64,
faulty? faulty? really.. we will see.
you jump to conclusions my friend.i think again we have a miscommunication here, im stating that Jesus is the beginning and the end. your stating that and attacking that Jesus is not God and what not. im not stating that at all. im stating facts.
1:7-Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
This is talking about Jesus as to context to verse 8.
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13-And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.this verse proves that the one speaking was the son of man by Johns own testimony.
and whats your point about the Alpha and the omega, it simply means the beginning and the end. whats your point?
on vs Rev22:13-
its obvious its Jesus.
because Jesus sent the Angel.12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.the one coming quickly is Christ.
John 1:1
YOU MISSED MY POINT. my point wasnt whether God and the Word were one or the same.
im stating that the word was in the beginning!!!!
thats it.In conclusion.
im not going to even respond back to the rest because you lost to whole point of why i stated those scriptures.every one of those scriptures state that CHRIST was in the BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS AT THE END, AND HE IS THE END.
its as simple as that.
thats all i was stating mike,
your getting off topic again.
my focus on my previous post was bolded and i always post the whole verse i dont like cutting scripture, but my focus was the beginning and nothing else.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 07 2010,15:19) every one of those scriptures state that CHRIST was in the BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS AT THE END, AND HE IS THE END.
Sorry sir,but not one of those scriptures say that. I'll address you “context” points tomorrow, ONE SCRIPTURE AT A TIME, OKAY? Good day to you sir!
I SAID GOOD DAY!!!
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2010,09:28) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 07 2010,15:19) every one of those scriptures state that CHRIST was in the BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS AT THE END, AND HE IS THE END.
Sorry sir,but not one of those scriptures say that. I'll address you “context” points tomorrow, ONE SCRIPTURE AT A TIME, OKAY? Good day to you sir!
I SAID GOOD DAY!!!
peace and love,
mike
omgosh mike….
lolAre you serious.
Revelations expreses that he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA
John 1:1 says that the “Word” which is Christ was in the beginning.
Collosians says he was in the beginning,
and 1 john.
Not was he only in the begnning but he is the beginning,
Collosians says he is the FIRST BORN OF CREATION.
what more do you want mike,
lets not play that 70shows, and speak a foriegn language and ignore my points.
its as simple as that,
Christ was there, and he is.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 07 2010,16:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2010,09:28) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 07 2010,15:19) every one of those scriptures state that CHRIST was in the BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THAT HE IS AT THE END, AND HE IS THE END.
Sorry sir,but not one of those scriptures say that. I'll address you “context” points tomorrow, ONE SCRIPTURE AT A TIME, OKAY? Good day to you sir!
I SAID GOOD DAY!!!
peace and love,
mike
omgosh mike….
lolAre you serious.
Revelations expreses that he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA
John 1:1 says that the “Word” which is Christ was in the beginning.
Collosians says he was in the beginning,
and 1 john.
Not was he only in the begnning but he is the beginning,
Collosians says he is the FIRST BORN OF CREATION.
what more do you want mike,
lets not play that 70shows, and speak a foriegn language and ignore my points.
its as simple as that,
Christ was there, and he is.
Hi Dennison,IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth. Are the heavens and the earth eternal because they existed IN THE BEGINNING.
Jesus isn't called “the beginning” without the word “of” following it.
Jesus isn't called the Alpha and Omega ever.
If you think he is, quote ONE scripture and your interpretation of it. ONE AT A TIME FROM NOW ON. I am so tired of these drawn out multi-point discussions. Go ahead, start with John 1:1 or any Rev scripture you mentioned and show me how they mean Jesus is eternal or God or “the beginning”.
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 07 2010,16:02) Revelations expreses that he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA Not was he only in the begnning but he is the beginning,
what more do you want mike,
I want you to show actual proof for either of these statements. They are both false IMO. Show me how they are true ONE AT A TIME.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,12:05) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 07 2010,16:02) Revelations expreses that he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA Not was he only in the begnning but he is the beginning,
what more do you want mike,
I want you to show actual proof for either of these statements. They are both false IMO. Show me how they are true ONE AT A TIME.mike
Mike,
I am getting seriously frustrated with you.
I understand why Kj and WJ get so upset.It seems like your only satisfied when people do things your way. and than you want to start over and blah blha blah.
Im going to seperate this into MORE POINTS! so that you can stop complaining.
Fact 1. Jesus was in the beginning and end – Agree or disgree?
Fact 2. Jesus is the beginning and end- Agree or disagree.You want to debate one scripture.. really.
ok lets start with this one
bible verse 1: ====Revleations 1:11.You tell me who is speaking.
to Add:
This is frustrating because i already gave you enough evidence to prove that Jesus clearly calls him self the first and the last, the beginning and the end. and its ridculous that your actually fighting this point.Hi Dennison,
You said:
Quote Mike,
I am getting seriously frustrated with you.
I understand why Kj and WJ get so upset.It seems like your only satisfied when people do things your way. and than you want to start over and blah blha blah.
It seems you have joined the pack of wild dogs that follow me around nipping at my heals but failing to get a death grip around my neck.
Do yourself a favor……try not to include yourself in any group with WJ and KJ. You will be “guilty by association”. And yes, I am satisfied when points and questions are clear and concise so there's no misunderstanding.
You said:
Quote Im going to seperate this into MORE POINTS! so that you can stop complaining. Fact 1. Jesus was in the beginning and end – Agree or disgree?
Fact 2. Jesus is the beginning and end- Agree or disagree.Yes! That's what I'm talking about!
DIRECT questions that I can answer DIRECTLY.#1. Agree
#2. Disagree unless the word “of” follows, ie “beginning OF those raised from the dead to eternal life”, “beginning OF the creation of God”, etc.You said:
Quote You want to debate one scripture.. really. ok lets start with this one
bible verse 1: ====Revleations 1:11.You tell me who is speaking.
Yes. ONE scripture at a time, thank you. These are from NETBible:
Revelation 1:11
Context
NET © saying: “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches – to Ephesus, 1 Smyrna, 2 Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”NIV ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”NASB ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”NLT ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
It said, “Write down what you see, and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”MSG ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
“Write what you see into a book. Send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.”BBE ©
SABDAweb Rev 1:11
Saying, What you see, put in a book, and send it to the seven churches; to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.NRSV ©
bibleoremusRev 1:11
saying, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”NKJV ©
biblegateway Rev 1:11
saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”Greek
legouvsh?, {V-PAP-GSF} J;o {R-ASN} blevpei? {V-PAI-2S} gravyon {V-AAM-2S} eij? {PREP} biblivon {N-ASN} kai; {CONJ} pevmyon {V-AAM-2S} tai'? {T-DPF} eJpta; {N-NUI} ejkklhsivai?, {N-DPF} eij? {PREP} ~efeson {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Smuvrnan {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Pevrgamon {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Quavteira {N-APN} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Savrdei? {N-APF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Filadevlfeian {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} eij? {PREP} Laodivkeian. {N-ASF}Why is it that only the KJV has the words “I am the Alpha and Omega”? It is not in the Westcott and Hort Greek listed above.
The NIV was written by over 100 scholars which I have heard had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project. Don't you think if there was any way they could have found worthy Greek mss that had the Alpha and Omega part they would have bent over backwards to include those words?
I'm sorry Dennison, it just doesn't say that. What's the next scripture you have as proof?
You said:
Quote This is frustrating because i already gave you enough evidence to prove that Jesus clearly calls him self the first and the last, the beginning and the end. and its ridculous that your actually fighting this point. Yes, I imagine it is frustrating to try the “everything at the speed of light” technique on someone who won't let you get away with it. The above is just one example of your “evidence” which as it turns out, is no “evidence” at all.
peace and love,
mikeps You said:
Quote and its ridculous that your actually fighting this point. This is the tactic that your heroes WJ and KJ use all the time against me. But you should know by now that I won't be ridiculed, harassed or bullied into accepting as proof something that cleary isn't. Think about that Dennison. Out of all the people on HN, do you really want to emulate these two clowns who think by sticking together and gang-attacking me personally they somehow are refuting my scriptural points?
I've got to go answer to them on the “pasa ktisis” thread now. Read the last few posts there. See if you can find any logic or proof in the midsts of all the slams and mutual backslapping they do. It's like this:
Jack: The color purple is God.
Mike: Can you show me where that is in scripture?
Jack: Mike never wants to deal with the scriptures.
Keith: I know, it's like a cup is full of water……
Jack: Exactly! He's an idiot.
Keith: Yeah, and he thinks when we die we cease to exist.
Jack: I know, he's so stupid. I just don't get the Mikester.
Keith: Yeah, he never wants to answer the questions.
Jack: Exactly! And he keeps asking the same thing over and over after we've already answered it.
Keith: Yeah, he can't refute it, so he just keeps asking the same thing expecting a different answer.And that my friend, is how they PROVE the color purple is God.
You're better than that Dennison. Don't sink to their level with the insults and ridicules. More often than not, the last laugh will be on you – just like with Rev 1:11.
mike
Hi Mike,
I see why they have the death grip on you,
because you hold anything as truth, and you try to squeeze out any way you can when someone makes a point that you disagree with or when you feel cornered.I will use also Reina Valera as another translation text.
11Que decía: Yo soy el Alpha y Omega, el primero y el último. Escribe en un libro lo que ves, y envía lo á las siete iglesias que están en Asia; á Efeso, y á Smirna, y á Pérgamo, y á Tiatira, y á Sardis, y á Filadelfia, y á Laodicea.
here is Youngs literal translation the one that Karmarie likes.
Young's Literal Translation
1:11 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'Noah Webster Bible
1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
legoushV egw eimi to a kai to w o prwtos kai o escatos kai o blepeiV grayon eiV biblion kai pemyon taiV ekklhsiaiV tais en asia eiV efeson kai eiV smurnan kai eiV pergamon kai eiV quateira kai eiV sardeiV kai eiV filadelfeian kai eiV laodikeianScrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
legoushV egw eimi to a kai to w o prwtos kai o escatos kai o blepeiV grayon eiV biblion kai pemyon taiV epta ekklhsiaiV tais en asia eiV efeson kai eiV smurnan kai eiV pergamon kai eiV quateira kai eiV sardeiV kai eiV filadelfeian kai eiV laodikeianit seems that even in a different language they reached the same conclusion.
the differences in English translations mean nothing to me, and shouldnt be used as proof.
So if you feel like thats proof than your fooling yourself.
Point being is that Jesus spoke of himself being the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
you know what makes me more upset, that i took your word for it thinking the chance that it might not say that. guess what your wrong. I looked it up on greek, i even took out my greek bible, its clear as day. my fastest record of translating something,
The letters of Alpha and Omega are present. With my own eyes have i seen it.
So all your jibber and gabber means nothing on me.
Just because other translations in english do not agree means nothing.
this is what your trying to do.
Well everyone agrees that 2+2=5, and since everyone agrees thats truth,
Abosolute truth is not based on everyones opinion. because truth is no matter who says other wise, that 2+2=4Either way Jesus reaffrims he is the first and he is the last.
on verse 17, and 18 living forever and ever.anyways mike, i could careless on how, who, or what happen as the english KJV bible was being translated. Its a simple fact that these words were present, if others wanted to delete them thats fine, thats others.
but it is so wrong for you to accuse me of being false.
let me tell you why, the fact that its written in the KJV, and the fact that i read this same verse in different languages (not that you would know) should have given you some benefit of the doubt of what im saying.In other words you should be more understanding, instead of being a heretic.
Note: The greek from west cott i wouldnt take to be truth, it literaly cuts the scripture in half.
Hort and Westcott
legoushV o blepeiV grayon eiV biblion kai pemyon taiV epta ekklhsiaiV eiV efeson kai eiV smurnan kai eiV pergamon kai eiV quateira kai eiV sardeiV kai eiV filadelfeian kai eiV laodikeianlast note to your recent post.
Im not one of them. Im myself.
I just see why they get frustated.in my point of view is that both of ya are wrong. more them than you. but still i get why they atagonize you.
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