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“The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even the dividing of soul and spirit, both joints and marrow, able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart”
A friend who I was saying to you had the same problem as me, he said those who do this have 'evil hearts'. They will do anything to stop the truth being told.
(MIKE, I'm not talking about you here at all, I'm talking about debating with the wrong people which is something I do often, not just here)
JA Why even debate what God through Jesus created…?
To me it is more important that He did create all. Knowing that Jesus had to be with Jehovah God to create all things. When Mike just said that Jesus created all things, to me it is understood that Jesus created all by the power of God, and not just by Himself…Is that why you think you are the winner in this debate?
When it says that God created all through Jesus, then He also created the Angels……Why would you not think so??? Or Mike for that matter??? Peace IreneIrene,
God uses ones negativity to expose another's deceit.
Yes, the Scriptures says, in simplistic view, that God created all things through Jesus.
I am not disputing that, per se.
I already said that the senior son inherits ALL, therefore, God affords Jesus the luxury and Glory of ALL that is his…and the creation of the ALL is God's work.
But, look, how many times has Mike started debates and, has any of them ended?
And yet, he never debated with JustAskin…and here we see Mike making a chalkenge against me with what he thinks will be his glory hour….and yet now he has 'egg on his face'…having been found to have had to act deceitfully to try to win his argument.
How many other times has he done this, then claimed that it is the other person who is not answering his question?
Yet, as often as you post a response, if he doesn't like it, no matter what truth it contains, he still refutes it and demands a response that says what he wants you to say.
Mike claimed he would show me…well, has he…?
Here is a thing…how many times in New Testament Scriptures is Jesus referred to in his pre-man state?
Very few…and many that are misinterpreted as pre… are actually post… Begotten, for instance…'Firstborn over all creation' is another…this latter, is not proof of preExistence, but proof of post-Glory.Firstborn from the dead, begotten TRUE Son of God, Man and Spirit, 'the man who is heaven in the bosom of the father', who will reign forever…John….and Daniel….
The Apostles make minimal allusion to preJesus and look forward to the heavenly reward and the heavenly man, the Glorified Son of God, who they desire to emulate.Only two questions:
Why did Satan believe he was worthy of Worship if he were created through 'Jesus' and therefore only a second rate Angel by comparison…didJesus sayto him…'i created you and now you are greater than me because you are a God in your own kingdom of earth and I am lowly man, below even the lowliest Angel?'
And, for what reasons were the Angels created?
Irene,
Please expand on what you mean by 'Jesus created all through the power of God'
God spoke a word, 'let there be light', then Jesus did what?
God said, 'Let the earth be formed like a ball…ha ha… what is a ball? And Jesus did what?
And the Angels? How were the Angels created…they are not elemental, they are Spirit…
Where did Jesus obtain the Spirit to create them? Was he God himself? For only God can give Spirit…and Angels are just so, just Spirit…
But what if Jesus 'organised' the Angels, created their 'Principalities', their, 'Dominions', their 'Rulership', their stations, order, positions and appointed them.Jesus rose to a position 'Above them'…if he had a 'simple rising' could he have been raised from the dead to the SAME position and been 'the same as them'…but getriumphed and was raised to a HIgher position than them and is now Above ALL things…if he had simply been raised back to his previous position…what would that have been.
Was Jesus not referred to as 'the ANGEL of God'.Please try not to be sentimental in dealing with truth and scriptures.
If I ask concerning Satan/Lucifer's role, do not see him as he is now but what Scriptures says he was, 'The most Gloriously arrayed. All the precious stones were his covering, he walked in the mount of God and amongst the stones'
The mount, is not a place, it means 'in God's power', on his 'throne'.
The stones,..i'm not sure, but it could be the those whose role it is to be attendant on God, in his immediate presence, the most holiest of places.
Was this one just a normal Angel…he was given a kingdom, the earth to rule, even Jesus was subject to him as man…to which other, in the whole of creation, was a kingdom given to? Only one other, Jesus Christ?So, let me get this straight – just for the record. First, JA “ends” this debate on the first page by saying:
Quote So, you win… Having declared you as victor and the debate is therefore over,
And after I refused to accept my “victory” because the actual point we were debating had not been fully aired out, he simply refuses to answer a clear and direct scriptural question.But then, Shimmer comments on the debate that JA has both forfeited AND bailed on, and all of a sudden he's back with a passion?
Too funny, man! 
Okay JA, even though you refuse to answer my simple question that would end this debate for real, I will address your misunderstandings anyway.
JA:
Quote Check what Mike is saying:
Through Jesus, all the Angels were created. And these are Rulers (or Principalities), Powers, Authorities, thrones, things visisble or invisible in heaven.
Correct………..exactly as the scriptures tell us. JA, are you dense? Or just so hell-bent on justifying your flawed doctrine that you are just “playing dense”? The scripture clearly says ALL INVISIBLE THINGS IN HEAVEN were created through Jesus. And as if that's not enough, Paul goes on to elaborate that this INCLUDES “powers, authorities, and rulers”. What do you want……..a map drawn out?And as if THAT'S not enough, Paul also says that ALL THINGS came FROM God and ALL THINGS came THROUGH Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6) Think it out man. If the “ALL THINGS” that came from God include angels, which it most certainly does since they came from God, then the “ALL THINGS” that came THROUGH Jesus includes the angels also. For Paul doesn't distinguish between “ALLS” here. The first mention of “ALL THINGS” refers to the exact same things that the second mention of “ALL THINGS” refers to.
And as it THAT'S still not enough, we can add John 1:3 into the mix. There John says that NOT ONE THING that exists today came into existence without Jesus.
It is YOU who insists that only angels and God are in heaven JA. But now that insistence is biting you in the butt. If there are only angels and God, then exactly WHO are the INVISIBLE “rulers, powers and authorities” IN HEAVEN that were created through Jesus?
Because it CLEARLY says that the INVISIBLE RULERS IN HEAVEN were created through Jesus. Who else would these be if not angels JA?JA:
Quote Mike defines Thrones, Authorities, Dominions etc, as Angels also…
And once again, it is YOUR insistence that there are no “physical” THRONES in heaven that becomes your undoing here. You are eager to spout off about “Throne only means power. Spirits have no need for a real Throne.” So, if “thrones” refers to “powers”, then again, who are these HEAVENLY INVISIBLE POWERS who were created through Jesus?JA:
Quote Then I show Mike a verse stating, 'Angels and Principalities (Mike refuses to use 'Principalities changing the written word to 'Rulers'…remember, no two words mean exactly the same thing so, changing the word may add a different contextual meaning…was this deliberate, Mike?)
No JA, what I clearly showed you from Blue Letter Bible is that when the KJV and Young's translated the Greek word “arche” as “principalities”, they meant “heavenly rulers”. They considered the word “principality” to be an angel who ruled over other angels. And they understood Paul to be saying that not only were the regular angels created through Jesus, but EVEN the HEAD ANGELS. Even Michael, the “ARCHE-angel.” Do you see that Greek word again there JA? Michael is the “ARCH-angel” which means he is the “RULER-angel”. That word “arche” that you readily accept to mean that Michael is the “CHEIF-angel” is the same exact Greek word that the KJV translated as “principality”. And I've also showed you this from Dictionary.com. The KJV's use of “principalities” was to indicate that even the RULERS of the invisible things in heaven were created through Jesus.It just so happens that we don't talk like 17th century Olde English anymore. We say “ruler” instead of “principality”. So I didn't “change” the words, I simply used a more recent translation so you could be able to understand that “arche” means “ruler”. Here's some examples of the word “arche” being translated in Romans 8:38 by more recent Versions:
NIV
neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, (Footnote: demons…….or heavenly rulers)New Living Translation
Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, (Footnote: demons………or rulersEnglish Standard Version
neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers,New Century Version
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor ruling spirits,Worldwide English Version
38I know this. Death, life, angels, rulers, things happening now, things that will happen, high things, low things; nothing else in all the world can come between us and God's love in Christ Jesus our Lord.NRSV
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers,BBE
not death, or life, or angels, or rulers,Are you understanding this? The Greek word “arche” means “ruler”.
But besides all this, your point isn't really a point anyway. For I could say, “I will worship only God. Not angels nor principalities”. And knowing that “pricipalities” refers to “rulers”, there is no dilemma. Which brings me to these points you made.
JA:
Quote Mike then claims that Only Some Angels are rulers…which ones, I ask? Now 'Some rulers are of Mankind and not Angels'
This is just double talk to make me sound unreasonable. Col 1:16 says that all things were created through Jesus. These “all things” INCLUDE, visible rulers on earth, invisible rulers on earth, and invisible rulers in heaven. It does not imply that the “all things” are LIMITED to ONLY the “rulers, powers and authorities”, but instead implies that “all things – EVEN the rulers, powers and authorities” were created through Jesus.JA:
Quote Col 1:15 is clearly talking about the risen Christ..having been raised up in glory, he is now the 'firstborn
9;, firstborn in Hebrew terms,
Slow your roll there mister. “Hebrew terms”? The word “firstborn” in “Hebrew terms” meant the one born first. That one received a double portion of the inheritance. On a few recorded occasions, this “firstborn position” was taken from the one who was literally born first and given to another. BUT EVERY SINGLE TIME THIS HAPPENED IN SCRIPTURE, WE KNEW THAT'S WHAT WAS HAPPENING, FOR WE ARE CLEARY TOLD ABOUT IT. In each of the other hundreds of mentions of a “firstborn” in scripture, it simply refers to the one who was born first. So, where in scripture do we find information about the one who was really born first that lost his double share to Jesus? Or is this information only available to JA and not the rest of us? You see JA, without any contrary information available to us, we must assume that “firstborn of all creation” means exactly what it says. Jesus is the one who was born first out of every single living being in creation. The “default” meaning is “the one who was born first”. And without anything to say different, we must always assume the “default” meaning of “firstborn”.JA:
Quote Moreover…the verse says, for BY Him were all things created…', yet it should say, 'Through Him'… By/Through????follow up,
This point would not even be an issue if you were willing to use the available resources out there JA. The Greek words “en” and “dia” could mean either “by” or “through” – among other things. Now most translations of the Bible like to use “by” to further their claim that Jesus is God because things were created “by” him. But we know that God is the ONLY Creator of all things. And that's why they have to use “through” in 1 Cor 8:6. Because it would not make sense to say all things are from God, but “by” Jesus. So they use the correct word “through” in this instance and a few others. But they insert the “by” whenever they think they can get away with it to support the “Jesus is God” theory. So, whenever you see a scripture that says things were created “by” Jesus, just make a mental note that it should be translated as “through”.I have never claimed anyone but God created. But you didn't like the NWT translation because they added the word “other” in brackets, so I went with the NIV. And the NIV was translated by 100 trinitarians, so therefore they use the word “by” when it should have been “through”. Got it?
Yeah, that's just one of the “not one things” that NETNotes has helped me to understand. And you sit there all condescendingly attacking us for using the available sources.
Hey, your KJV also says “by”, doesn't it? So all this time, you've been wondering how things were created “BY” Jesus when you know we have only one Creator? Your claim of “only scriptures” is bogus anyway, but you're too blind to realize it. Do you think it was God Himself who wrote your KJV? NO JA, it was men. As a matter of fact, it was trinitarian men. Same with Shimmer and her thoughts that Young's is actually the “true” Bible translation just because it says “literal”. Young was also just a man choosing HIS IDEA of what the Hebrew and Greek words meant and how they should be translated into English. Use the NETNotes or Blue Letter or Online Bible Study Tools or something JA. Then YOU can see with your OWN eyes how many times the English Bibles “rearrange” what was really written to slant the Bible towards saying “Jesus is God”.
Oh, and you would also be able to read about “en” and “dia” without me doing your homework for you.
JA:
Quote Mike is trying very hard NOT to learn from anyone. He can only learn from himself… I learn from scriptures JA, not people who can't even answer the simplest scriptural questions. And like you, when I first got to HN, I thought “only scripture”. But unlike you, from the start of my first debate with Jack a year ago, I realized that there was info out there, and I was going to use it to further my knowledge.This is supposed to be a simple Q and A debate. You know, short posts, just one question – that sort of thing. But since you either can't or refuse to answer my first simple question that proves your theory to be flawed, I have another one for you.
Are you really blind enough to think YOUR version of the English Bible is the actual “Word of God”? Do you not realize that you are reading the words of men?
Start boning up on some Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek JA. Then you will begin to REALLY read and understand the scriptures. And then you won't have to call me “dishonest”, “deceitful”, “a snake”, and say I'm “twisting” things. Because you will know for yourself that every thing I claim is scriptural.
mike
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,09:46) JA Why even debate what God through Jesus created…? To me it is more important that He did create all. Knowing that Jesus had to be with Jehovah God to create all things. When Mike just said that Jesus created all things, to me it is understood that Jesus created all by the power of God, and not just by Himself…Is that why you think you are the winner in this debate?
When it says that God created all through Jesus, then He also created the Angels……Why would you not think so??? Or Mike for that matter??? Peace Irene
Hi Irene,Let me get you “up to speed” on this situation.
JA has a dream that Satan was God's REAL firstborn Son. Then, after Satan messed up in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, God “appointed” Jesus to the “position” of firstborn Son.
In order for his dream to be realized, he must deny Col 1:15-16, 1 Cor 8:6 and John 1:3. All of those scriptures say that everything was created THROUGH Jesus. And since that “everything” includes the angels, of which Satan is a part, then JA must deny those scriptures. His theory will not work if Satan came to be through Jesus, so he will do whatever he can to make those scriptures say something different than what they clearly say.
Irene, it is the same thing we've gone through with Gene and Martian. I show him the CLEAR scripture, and he PRETENDS it doesn't really say what it says.
Okay, now you're “up to speed”.
If you keep reading here, you will see many accusations against me. Just like Martian, JA has called me “a snake”, “deceitful”, “dishonest” and says I'm “twisting” the scriptures. You know me by now. Like you and Pierre, I claim nothing that cannot be supported by scripture. The problem here is that JA doesn't like the scriptural truth in this case, so he is attacking me personally as a diversion to not being able to answer this one simple question I've been asking:
Now, here is the very simple question JA. Col 1:16 says all invisible rulers in heaven were created through Jesus. Now aside from God Himself who isn't a “creation” and Jesus, who could not logically be said to be created through himself, is there any logical SCRIPTURAL reason for you to insist this doesn't include the angels?
If not “angels”, then who are these invisible powers, rulers and authorities in heaven who were created through Jesus?
Irene, please just ignore the accusations and insults. They mean nothing to me, so don't let them upset you.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Nov. 17 2010,10:39) But, look, how many times has Mike started debates and, has any of them ended? 
They all end the same way JA. With a big bolded question from me that the other guy is either unable or unwilling to answer. Just like this one will most likely end. JA, why don't you spend less time trying to bias others against me personally and more time answering the ONE SIMPLE QUESTION I've been asking you for two weeks?
I thought this was supposed to be a debate of scripture, not a personal attack.
mike
JA
you say;;Please try not to be sentimental in dealing with truth and scriptures.
If I ask concerning Satan/Lucifer's role, do not see him as he is now but what Scriptures says he was, 'The most Gloriously arrayed. All the precious stones were his covering, he walked in the mount of God and amongst the stones'
The mount, is not a place, it means 'in God's power', on his 'throne'.
The stones,..i'm not sure, but it could be the those whose role it is to be attendant on God, in his immediate presence, the most holiest of places.
Was this one just a normal Angel…he was given a kingdom, the earth to rule, even Jesus was subject to him as man…to which other, in the whole of creation, was a kingdom given to? Only one other, Jesus Christ?
——————————————————————————————
—-i guess all special angels are created beautiful,but it says that the one who faulted Satan was specially beautiful,and it wen to his head ,and believed of that beauty that he had an edge over the others and so can have a claim of some sort,this was is fall (he forgot everything is of God ),,
men are not immune to this ,look how this world is working is it not so ,this is why it is also call the kingdom of Satan,
Pierre
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