Mike versus ja

[mikeboll64]

The following are the rules for this debate, as agreed upon by Mike and JA:

Each post can contain as many words about as many things as the posters wants………BUT………the poster may ask ONE question only that the responder MUST answer DIRECTLY.  This particular question will be bolded.  Once answered, the responder can then post whatever he wants, and can ask one question that MUST BE DIRECTLY ANSWERED by the other.  And so on, and so on.  If you refuse to directly answer the question asked, you forfeit the debate.

I will invite Pierre to act as judge…………but to say NOTHING unless one of us asks him to make a ruling about whether a question was answered sufficiently or not.  If he rules it was not, the one who failed must attempt to answer it more DIRECTLY, and continue to do so until Pierre is satisfied that it has been sufficiently, COMPLETELY, and honestly answered.

Get it?  One post, one “must answer” question.  The opponent's post MUST contain the DIRECT answer to the bolded question asked, and MUST contain a question of his own.  Other than that, each poster can fill their posts with as much info or nonsense as they wish to.

[mikeboll64]

Hi JA,

Ephesians 6:11-12 NIV
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Do you think the “rulers, authorities and powers” above that Paul said our struggle is against refer to living beings, or inanimate objects?

mike

[terraricca]

Mike and JA

i be looking and fallow your debate and not interfere in any way, until any of you ask;

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 12 2010,11:27)

Mike and JA i be looking and fallow your debate and not interfere in any way, until any of you ask; Pierre

Thank you Pierre. I guess I should have asked if you were willing instead of just assuming you would be!

peace and love,
mike

[JustAskin]

Mike,
This is amazing… This morning i woke with this very topic in mind. I wasn't 'awake', so i wrote a note in my pad and decided to do a quick check in before getting my snooze before the alarm clock went off… And here it is…

Simple answer. No, not inanimate.
Here's what i thought:

“Mike, hey, I must apologise…

i apologise…

I see now what you were 'grrr'ing about. Inanimate is the wrong word. I used the wrong word, so 'no', Principalities, powers, etc., are not 'inanimate'…. “

So, you win…

Having declared you as victor and the debate is therefore over, i would like to say that i did say, by way of elaboration, that they are 'orders and positions'…and this is why i couldn't understand why, after answering you so many times, you still kept saying that i had not answered your 'simple question'.

But, Mike, could you not see the 'correct definition' over the 'incorrect word', the elaboration?

I also wrote,
“John Peel created the first British Police Force.
Did John Peel create the members, the men, of that Force, or were they already existing?
No, he didn't create the men…they were already existing.
John Peel…empowered them, called them to the 'stations' (Stations…see that, see that, good, eh?) that they were to occupy.

Who created the station of 'King'?

And who called Saul to occupy that station, and then David and, afterwards, Solomon?

Did Jesus create Saul, David, Solomon, or did they already exist?”

And also, Did Jesus create Evil…isn't Evil 'a power', and Death…
“ALL …Things… were created by him…”.

So, pedantically, Jesus created 'Satan'; Jesus created Sin; Jesus created Stress, strife, greed, glutteny, pride, vanity, despair, delusion…

[JustAskin]

Mike,

Further more, doesn't Ephesians 6:12 say, 'but we do not wrestle against [metaphorically speaking here] flesh and blood but against Principalities…against Powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places'

So, Principalities, we 'wrestle' with;
Powers, we 'wrestle' with;
Rulers of the darkness, we 'wrestle' with;
Evil Spiritual hosts in the heavens (Angels), we 'wrestle' with.

Yet, Jesus is said to have created…Principalities, Powers, Rulers … but not the Angelic Hosts.

Even if you say, 'All thing Seen or Unseen' is meant to say 'Angelic hosts', why not say 'Angelic Hosts', after all, the people of the time were aware of Angels…more so than today, angels were actually seen in those times…

Further more…rather in sillyness, aren't all these negative things that we 'wrestle' with all created BY Jesus?

Romans 8:38 says, 'neither Death, nor life, nor ANGELS, nor PRINCIPALITIES, nor POWERS…'
So how are Angels the same as Principalities if they are mentioned separately?

Colossians 2:15, says that Christ disarmed Principalities and made a public spectacle of them.

What does this mean? 'KINGS', people in authority bowed down to his wisdom, just as was prophesied in the psalms.
Which Angels of the 'Principalities' did he put to shame?
Which Angels of the Principalities bowed down to him? Only Satan was put to shame when Jesus said, 'Get thee away from me, Satan…', and that was not a 'public' spectacle.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 12 2010,16:53)

Inanimate is the wrong word. I used the wrong word, so 'no', Principalities, powers, etc., are not 'inanimate'…. “

No, “inanimate” was the correct word – according to the rest of your post.

Do you understand that “principality” in this case means “ruler”?  

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Why would we struggle against an “office” or the actual “land” or “state” ruled by a prince?  Paul is talking about living beings here.  When he says we struggle against “rulers”, he means “persons who rule this dark world”.  When he says “authorities”, he means “living beings who have authority in this dark world”.  When he says “powers”, he means living beings who have power in this dark world.  

Here is another verse in which the KJV uses “principalities” instead of “rulers”,

Ephesians 3:10 NIV
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Now that can't literally mean the inanimate “state ruled by a prince” is what is receiving God's wisdom, can it?

Here's another:

Titus 3:1 NIV
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,

Are people subject to the land that is ruled………..or the rulers themselves?

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words 1 Strong's Number: g746  Greek: arche
Principality:

“beginning, government, rule,” is used of supramundane beings who exercise rule, called “principalities;”

(a) of holy angels, Eph 3:10, the Church in its formation being to them the great expression of “the manifold (or “much-varied”) wisdom of God;” Col 1:16;

(b) of evil angels, Rom 8:38; Col 2:15, some would put this under (a), but see SPOIL, B. No. 4; (a) and (b) are indicated in Col 2:10. In Eph 1:21, the RV renders it “rule” (AV, “principality”) and in Tts 3:1, “rulers” (AV, “principalities”). In Jud 1:6, RV, it signifies, not the first estate of fallen angels (as AV), but their authoritative power, “their own” indicating that which had been assigned to them by God, which they left, aspiring to prohibited conditions.

Vine lists only 2 meanings for the KJV's uses of “prinicpality” JA.  Holy angels and evil angels. Vine says that “holy angels” are what is meant by “principalities” in Col 1:16. And Col 1:16 says these were created through Jesus.  

Do you agree that Paul is talking about living beings/rulers/angels and not the inanimate “land ruled by a prince”?

mike

[JustAskin]

Mike,
This is all very interesting…

Can you read something here.

Jesus created ALL, whether Thrones, Principalities, Powers, things seen, and unseen.

And you say that Principalities are evil rulers…and Scriptures says that Jesus set them to shame and will destroy them.

So why did he create these evil rulers only to destroy them…

Further more, what exactly is it that Jesus created…what exactly does the Scriptures say that Jesus created: Does it say he created the Angels? No.
Does it say he created the earth? No.
Does it say he created the heavens? No.
Does it say he created Mankind? No.
Then what EXACTLY does it say he created? Principalities, [Wicked Evil] Rulers in the dark places of heaven…of which Ephesians say we wrestle.
And Romans 8:38 says, 'Neither death, nor life, NOR ANGELS, NOR PRINCIPALITIES, NOR POWERS, nor things present (Visible), nor things to come (Invisible)…'

In the quote where Jesus is said to have created 'ALL', it does not mention 'Angels' at all, but does all the other things above and more.
Life and death are'created' things..
Remember, even Jesus is a created being…but now he is ABOVE ALL of the [other (obviously not himself)] CREATED things and beings.
The emphasis is on the 'Now', after becoming the Begotten Son of God and raised up to this unique position…where he was not before…therefore he was lower than he is now…Now, now, the Scriptures includes the Angels.

When the Scripture verse stated what Jesus created, it did not mention 'Angels'.

When the Scripture verse talks of his triumph, and after being raised up, then, it mentions 'Angels'.

But Mike, do you class Jesus in only a single rank of Angels, or are there orders of Angels, which include the 'Princes'. These Princes are higher than the other Angels…
Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel, 'Jesus'…are these 'Princes'…and Jesus became the most righteous of them, over his brethren…. And so acquired the love of his father…more than the other 'Sons'…

Mike, if you have several sons, do you love them equally?
Think…yes…of course….initially. But no….not if one sins, is less able in righteousness, is wayward…as time goes on a natural, but maybe changing order of love will emerge, eventually, one, will be seen as supreme over the others by order of,..well, ..his virtue…and his righteousness…and, by ancient Jewish tradition, that one you would 'raise up'…'beget in rank order', 'spiritually adopt', as 'firstborn', for 'firstborn' is the inheritor of all. And so Jesus, as man, becomes that 'firstborn from the dead, reborn in spirit, adopted from man to spirit, first over all creation'

[mikeboll64]

JA:

Quote

And Romans 8:38 says, 'Neither death, nor life, NOR ANGELS, NOR PRINCIPALITIES, NOR POWERS, nor things present (Visible), nor things to come (Invisible)…

Let's read it in today's English instead of 17th century Olde English, okay?

Romans 8:38 NRSV
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

Do you understand that an angel COULD be a “ruler”, yet you could also separate “angels in general” from “rulers in general”? For all angels are not “rulers” and all rulers are not “angels”.

Colossians 1:16 NIV
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Do you notice that this scripture also mentions “rulers”?  But in this scripture, Paul clearly says that whether these “rulers” and “powers” and “authorities” are invisible or visible, in heaven or on the earth, they were created THROUGH, not BY, Jesus.

Please DIRECTLY answer this question as per the rules you agreed to:

Does Paul say that all “rulers” and “powers” and “authorities”, whether visible or invisible, whether in heaven or on earth, were created THROUGH Jesus?

mike

[JustAskin]

Ha ha..Mike… Mike…ever the refiner…

Perhaps if you posed your questions better you would get better answers.

Yes, it does say, 'through Jesus'…now what?

Angels…and Principalities…Powers..Rulers…are all now subject to Jesus.

But only Rulers, Principalities and Powers are said to be created through Jesus.

So, Angels were not created THROUGH Jesus, so it seems. But now even they are subject to him when God said, 'let all the angels of heaven do obesience to him'.

If Jesus was already 'Superior' to them, why would God have to Tell them to bow down to Jesus.

[JustAskin]

Ha ha…'Do you understand that an Angel COULD BE a Ruler'…?

So Jesus COULD have created AN Angel? One, two, ten, 100?

Hmmm…So now it's only 'possible' that SOME Angels were created through Jesus??

So, Mike, are you now saying that Jesus only created 'Some' of the Angels because some Angels are not rulers and some rulers are not Angels?

[mikeboll64]

JA: So, Mike, are you now saying that Jesus only created 'Some' of the Angels because some Angels are not rulers and some rulers are not Angels?

Not at all JA.

What I'm saying is that ALL invisible things in heaven are said to have been created THROUGH God's “firstborn of all creation”.  But also, ALL visible things on earth.  So that would include all angels in heaven, even though some of them were not necessarily “rulers”.  And it would include all things and people on earth, even though not all men are “rulers”.

Do you see that Paul is saying ALL things, and then he goes on to emphasize this “ALL” by saying even the things that are “powerful” and “rulers” and “authorities”.

Don't you see he was going out of his way to make sure we didn't think “all” only meant grass and trees and bunny rabbits?  He went out of his way to clarify that even the most powerful beings both on heaven and earth came to be through Jesus.

Now, here is the very simple question JA.  Col 1:16 says all invisible rulers in heaven were created through Jesus.  Now aside from God Himself who isn't a “creation” and Jesus, who could not logically be said to be created through himself, is there any logical SCRIPTURAL reason for you to insist this doesn't include the angels?  

If not “angels”, then who are these invisible powers, rulers and authorities in heaven who were created through Jesus?

mike

[JustAskin]

Mike,

Your twisted mind i will not deal with.

The debate is over,…has been like i said 'one page'. These filler posts do nothing to further your deluded u understanding…

So 'see ya, glad i'm not ya'

[mikeboll64]

[shimmer]

Has this finished ?

[shimmer]

No, dont answer, I tried not to let that post but it was too late, forget I asked !

[JustAskin]

Shimmer, yes….

Mike has been modifying his claim each time i answer him.

Ha! I wanted to say that but would not unless another intervened…thank you, Shimmer.

Check what Mike is saying:
1) Through Jesus, all the Angels were created. And these are Rulers (or Principalities), Powers, Authorities, thrones, things visisble or invisible in heaven.
According to his definition, these are all Angels (I said 'orders of Angels', possibly, not the actual Angels themselves for Angels are Spirits that come directly from God…what would Jesus create in a Spirit?)
2) Mike defines Thrones, Authorities, Dominions etc, as Angels also…

3) Mike then claims that Only Some Angels are rulers…which ones, I ask?

4) Now 'Some rulers are of Mankind and not Angels'

Shimmer, i have no idea where this guy is going with his debate. It seems he changes his mind like the direction of the wind in free air.

So…Jesus, by the 'Mikeboll' scriptures created, 'all the Ruler Angels but not all are rulers for some are human', the Angelic Powers, the Angelic Authorities, the Angelic Dominions, the Angelic thrones, and all the visible or invisible things of heaven (What things are visible in heaven?) and things on the earth, visible or invisible.

5) Then I show Mike a verse stating, 'Angels and Principalities (Mike refuses to use 'Principalities changing the written word to 'Rulers'…remember, no two words mean exactly the same thing so, changing the word may add a different contextual meaning…was this deliberate, Mike?)

So, Angels…The big creation quote did not mention Angels, but then there is a Scripture verse that states that Jesus is Above All Angels AND all the other 'created things'.
Mike is now trying to claim that 'Invisible things…' meant 'Angels'…

So, basically, by Mikeboll scriptures, all that Colossians 1:16 is saying, is that Jesus created 'All things…All the Angels'…
My my, that's incredibly, ummm….revealing…considering all the other great things that were created, including God most glorious creation, Mankind…that doesn't even get a look in???

How does one deal with another of such contrairiness?

Col 1:15 is clearly talking about the risen Christ..having been raised up in glory, he is now the 'firstborn', firstborn in Hebrew terms, the senior, the preEminent, over All Creation, including the Angels…
Then verse 16, says, for by him were all things created…

Hold up…if he created all things in the first place, why is he now being lorded as being above them now he is risen…perhaps there is something wrong with verse 16, for verse 16 misses out many things, mankind, the earth, …curious…

Moreover…the verse says, for BY Him were all things created…', yet it should say, 'Through Him'… By/Through????follow up, the refinement then says, 'All things were created Through Him and For Him'
One part says 'BY' him and another says, 'THROUGH' him…

'By'…the cause
'through'…by means of

By…the power, the cause or reason.
Through…the channel, the agency.

Curious and curiouser??

[shimmer]

JA and Mike, sometimes you have to be carefull with debating others. People can say hurtfull things. Only ever debate someone if you like them, if they have a good heart. If you can walk away after, and still love the person as a friend. I learnt that in the last day or two. Some people arent worth it.

[JustAskin]

Shimmer,

Debate with people who are 'Honest'… A dishonest debator will not give way and will stoop to ever level of deciet to deny losing face.

Mike's twisting words here show exactly this situation, hence, like the same with WJ when he also realised he was losing, Mike starts different arguments to muddy the waters.

I do not play such games and therefore terminated the debate, albeit that it was finished from page 1, and the rest was just 'filler posts' but even the filler posts from Mike were full of deceptions.

Mike is trying very hard NOT to learn from anyone. He can only learn from himself…

I saw a short documentary this morning where a Scientist has 'discovered', hey Stuart, listen to this, that planting trees on a hillside and having lots of dense shrubbery …slows down heavy rain water and helps to prevent flooding of the valley below the slope and the town built there.

Wonder of wonders, a Scientifuc discovery, and the Scientist get the Glory, he discovered what God did naturally but he gets the praise, nit the God that did it in the first place…
So, Mike will 'discover' these things by himself and will no credit to him that showed him these same things years before…

[shimmer]

People will say anything if they know the person they debate has more going for them, the truth in other words.

[Author]

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