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Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2012,15:35) Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 04 2012,11:44) Edj Do you deny that Christ came in the flesh?
Please
Hi Georgie,It is not YOU instead who says he is yet to come on the flesh?
“Henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea,
though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we him no more.” (2Cor 5:16)“I go to my Father, and ye see me no more (as it were – in the flesh);” (John 16:10)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote
Hi Georgie,It is not YOU instead who says he is yet to come on the flesh?
“Henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea,
though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we him no more.” (2Cor 5:16)“I go to my Father, and ye see me no more (as it were – in the flesh);” (John 16:10)
EdjWhen Christ first came to us, he came in the flesh.
He entered the world as a baby from Mary's womb. You agree with this? Do you need scriptures?Many deny that Christ came in the flesh,
in other words, they say, It's not true, Christ is just a made up story. These are the unbelievers.
But we do not deny he came, so we are without excuse,
therefore we must follow him.In case you didn't pick it up, when Christ died, he was raised and changed into spirit. He is now spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
but we hear Christ's words that he spoke, because all his wisdom and knowledge and holiness comes from his Father. So of course, God's word is spirit, THE WORDS GOD SPEAKS.
and he spoke his words through FLESH (JESUS), but the words he speaks are from God, so they are spirit.
do you need scriptures?….and no-one had the holy spirit until Christ departed.(died and rose) So they didn't even fully understand him themselves then when he was with them…
Most were impressed by his miracles and power, and they didn't understand his words, like most of you here.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2012,09:32) Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 04 2012,05:26) Do you think they understood him?
How in the world would I know that, Devo?
We know from scripture that many of even the leaders came to believe in Jesus and his word eventually – but would not openly acknowledge such. (John 12:42:43)
We know that Nicodemus and Paul were both Pharisees who came to believe in Jesus.
But how could I possibly know whether or not the specific ones he addressed in Matt 9 “understood him”?
What does this line of questioning have to do with the words “to repentance” anyway?
Mike, it has everything to do with our little debate!
Everything!
You will see why soon bro.Okay, what about this then;
Why do you think the Pharisees asked Christ's disciples : Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
I reckon you'd know this one…
devo
Quote Why do you think the Pharisees asked Christ's disciples : Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? would like to see your answer
Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,04:48) Mike, it has everything to do with our little debate!
Funny…………. I thought this “little debate” was about whether or not God chose to preserve His unadulterated word in the KJV, so that all ENGLISH SPEAKING people who LIVED AFTER 1611 could have access to this perfect, unadulterated version of His word.Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,04:48) Why do you think the Pharisees asked Christ's disciples : Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Because they knew Jesus was a teacher who was gaining a large following, and the Pharisees and other teachers of the Law did not gather with, eat with, or generally associate with those they arrogantly labeled as “sinners”.Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,04:48) I reckon you'd know this one…
Did I “not know” the other one?Are you trying to belittle me, Devo? Are you implying that I'm an insignificant little ant who doesn't know squat about scripture, but even I might know the answer to this “easy one”?
I'm anxious to see how you think the entire teaching of the scriptures revolves around the necessity to include the extra words “to repentence” in Matthew 9:13.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 06 2012,09:46) Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,04:48) Mike, it has everything to do with our little debate! Quote Funny…………. I thought this “little debate”
Okay, sorry, this debate.Quote was about whether or not God chose to preserve His unadulterated word in the KJV,
Actually, preserved in manuscripts of which the KJV is sourced.Quote so that all ENGLISH SPEAKING people who LIVED AFTER 1611 could have access to this perfect, unadulterated version of His word.
Inaccurate. I never once said English speaking people only.Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,04:48) Why do you think the Pharisees asked Christ's disciples : Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Because they knew Jesus was a teacher who was gaining a large following, and the Pharisees and other teachers of the Law did not gather with, eat with, or generally associate with those they arrogantly labeled as “sinners”.EXACTLY!
Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,04:48) I reckon you'd know this one…
Did I “not know” the other one?No Mike. You didn't…..reminder:
Quote How in the world would I know that, Devo? See?
Quote Are you trying to belittle me, Devo? See above.
Quote Are you implying that I'm an insignificant little ant who doesn't know squat about scripture, but even I might know the answer to this “easy one”? Sigh! see above.
Quote I'm anxious to see how you think the entire teaching of the scriptures revolves around the necessity to include the extra words “to repentence” in Matthew 9:13.
Actually, i don't have to go that far, i only need a mere four verses Mike.
Because the whole verbal exchange took place within four verses, and as any translator knows, context is critical to accurate translation.Mike, everything i am bringing up, has total relevance and “real world” refutation to your claim of “added” scripture.
Do you just want me to lay it all out in one go then?
Would that reduce your frustration?
Or would you like another crack at that first question that you couldn't answer?
Let me know please.Cheers.
devo
we all know from scriptures that Nicodemus could not understand Christ ,his answers are there to prove it ,
but what that as to do with the repentence
and we all know that even to Nicodemus Christ as talked to him in symbols ,why
Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,23:50) Did I “not know” the other one? No Mike. You didn't…..
Hmmm………..I think I answered your first question accurately. Can you honestly tell me that not one single Pharisee in the group to whom Jesus said those words understood what he meant?
Of course not. For all we know, five of them in that group could have not only understood what he was saying, but took a lesson from it and changed their understandings about those they arrogantly called “sinners”. For all we know, those five may have started practicing mercy from that day on, by trying to reach out to those “sinners” in a personal way.
We know from scripture that at least two Pharisees learned from the teachings of Jesus, right? Who's to say that Nicodemus wasn't one of those in that particular group of Pharisees mentioned in Matthew 9? Didn't he later defend Jesus to the other Pharisees? Didn't he also bring myrrh and aloes to prepare Jesus' body for the grave?
Devo, your question asked of me what none of us can truly know for sure. Therefore, my answer was not only accurate, but correct as well.
And even if you had asked if the Pharisees, AS A WHOLE, understood what Jesus was saying, we still could not answer the question. There are times in the scriptures (such as Matt 22:41-46) when the Pharisees understood the teaching of Jesus, although they wouldn't admit it. Could Matt 9 be one of those times? Could they have understood what he was saying, but just remained silent while they were burning up with anger inside because Jesus “showed them up” in front of the crowd?
Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,23:50) Actually, preserved in manuscripts of which the KJV is sourced.
And how many mss do you say were the source of the KJV? (Don't say more than five, because there are only five known Greek mss that have the added words of 1 John 5:7 in the text, while over 3000 of them don't.)Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 05 2012,23:50) Do you just want me to lay it all out in one go then?
I'm really not interested in a novel length post (like the one I just made). If you must take your time to keep it short and to the point, then take your time.Btw, good effort to color my words in order to keep things straight…………… but you didn't match my purple too well.
mikeboll64,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Quote I'm really not interested in a novel length post (like the one I just made). If you must take your time to keep it short and to the point, then take your time.Very well.
Quote I think I answered your first question accurately. Can you honestly tell me that not one single Pharisee in the group to whom Jesus said those words understood what he meant? No, i can't, but scripture can & does!
Quote Devo, your question asked of me what none of us can truly know for sure. Therefore, my answer was not only accurate, but correct as well Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that means…So you see Mike, they did not understand.
You had the answer there all along!Quote And even if you had asked if the Pharisees, AS A WHOLE, understood what Jesus was saying, we still could not answer the question. There are times in the scriptures (such as Matt 22:41-46) when the Pharisees understood the teaching of Jesus, although they wouldn't admit it. Could Matt 9 be one of those times? Could they have understood what he was saying, but just remained silent while they were burning up with anger inside because Jesus “showed them up” in front of the crowd? Mike, at that point, the Pharisees had not heard Jesus mention repentance.
It's not like they had a new testament to look into!!
Repentance is one of the chief pillars of Christ's doctrine Mike.
To think they understood what Jesus meant without that word repentance in his ANSWER to them in a way they could understand is very fanciful to say the least.
Because Jesus was EXPLAINING to them WHY he was speaking & eating with sinners summed up in one word they could never have otherwise be silenced by….REPENTANCE.
Repentance was the only acceptable REASON Jesus gave that they could have comprehended in light of the scriptures Jesus started his reply with!
With repentance left out…we would of instead seen one big theological eruption of scriptural rebuttal and fury!
Repentance was the water to their fire.
Context Mike!
Translation without contextual understanding gives us what the Alexandrian line does…incompletion.Mike, besides all that:
Mark 2:17
….I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentanceLuke 5:31
….I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentanceAre these verses “added” too?
Do you want to continue, or aren't you interested?
devo
Lk 3:2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Lk 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sins.
Lk 3:4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the desert,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.Lk 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Lk 3:6 And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’
Jn 1:19 Now this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was.
Jn 1:24 Now some Pharisees who had been sent
Jn 1:25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”IT SEEMS TO ME THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST MADE ENOUGH WAVES TO DISTURBE ANY ONE THAT LISTEN TO HIS WORDS ,
TO BELIEVE IN WHAT HE SAID THIS IS THE STORY, DID THEY BELIEVE CHRIST
NO ,REPENTANCE HIS ONLY A BENEFIT TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE ,IS IT NOT Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 07 2012,22:58) devo Lk 3:2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Lk 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sins.
Lk 3:4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“A voice of one calling in the desert,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.Lk 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Lk 3:6 And all mankind will see God’s salvation.’
Jn 1:19 Now this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was.
Jn 1:24 Now some Pharisees who had been sent
Jn 1:25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”IT SEEMS TO ME THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST MADE ENOUGH WAVES TO DISTURBE ANY ONE THAT LISTEN TO HIS WORDS ,
TO BELIEVE IN WHAT HE SAID THIS IS THE STORY, DID THEY BELIEVE CHRIST
NO ,REPENTANCE HIS ONLY A BENEFIT TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE ,IS IT NOT
Terra,John baptized unto repentance, yes.
Baptized Terra.But it was Jesus who taught the way to repentance.
And what did Jesus say about the multitudes?
Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.Acts 28:26
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:And the Pharisees?
Matthew 15:12-14
Then came his disciples, and said unto him, “knowest now that the Pharisees were offended, and after they heard this saying”? But he answered and said, Every plant that my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.Terra, true comprehension of Christ's doctrine did not occur until the Holy Spirit was sent after Christ was crucified!
So even though many may have believed on him before the Holy Spirit was given, they did not truly comprehend the message/doctrine.Besides, if those Pharisees already understood about the truth of repentance through Johns preaching, they would never have asked Jesus' disciples, “Why dost thou Master eat with publicans & sinners”? in the first place.
And even if many believed, everyday people, scribes, Pharisees, as they eventually did, none truly comprehended the doctrine Jesus taught until after crucifixion.
Believing & understanding are two separate things Terra.Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 07 2012,05:44) But go ye and learn what that means… So you see Mike, they did not understand.
You had the answer there all along!
Devo, if you look back a couple of pages at your original question, it seems as if you were asking me if the Pharisees understood Jesus' answer about coming to sinners because it is the sick who need a doctor, and about having mercy.I assume that most of them did understand his explanation, although they didn't act on this teaching. But we really have no way of knowing what the Pharisees understood, and what they didn't understand. After all, it is not given to us to read the minds of people who live today – let alone those who lived 2000 years ago.
Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 07 2012,05:44) Mike, besides all that: Mark 2:17
….I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentanceLuke 5:31
….I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentanceAre these verses “added” too?
Luke 5:32 NET ©
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”The footnote says:
Though parallels exist to this saying (Matt 9:13; Mark 2:17), only Luke has this last phrase, but sinners to repentance. Repentance is a frequent topic in Luke’s Gospel: 3:3, 8; 13:1-5; 15:7, 10; 16:30; 17:3-4; 24:47.I'm not faulting the KJV on Matt 9:13 or Mark 2:17, because the words ARE in Luke's account, and the words don't add to or change the context of the scriptural teaching. But neither can I fault the other three Bibles you listed for adhering to the text in the older mss.
Shall we move on to the next verse?
Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 07 2012,14:28) Besides, if those Pharisees already understood about the truth of repentance through Johns preaching, they would never have asked Jesus' disciples, “Why dost thou Master eat with publicans & sinners”? in the first place.
Remember that John and Jesus behaved very differently during the course of their respective ministries. (Matthew 11:18-19)It is doubtful that John ever ate and drank with those the Pharisees considered “sinners”, since he lived alone in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2012,12:05) Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 07 2012,14:28) Besides, if those Pharisees already understood about the truth of repentance through Johns preaching, they would never have asked Jesus' disciples, “Why dost thou Master eat with publicans & sinners”? in the first place.
(Matthew 11:18-19)
Mike,Quote Remember that John and Jesus behaved very differently during the course of their respective ministries.
Which was the reason for my comment being the comment it was.Quote It is doubtful that John ever ate and drank with those the Pharisees considered “sinners”, since he lived alone in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey.
I wasn't saying it was John. I was speaking hypothetically in response to Terras hypothetical question regarding those Pharisees hearing Johns warning at his baptisms.
You misunderstood.devo
Quote Matthew 15:12-14
Then came his disciples, and said unto him, “knowest now that the Pharisees were offended, and after they heard this saying”? But he answered and said, Every plant that my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.what is it you think Christ refers to when he said “PLANT ” AND planted ?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2012,11:50) Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 07 2012,05:44) But go ye and learn what that means… So you see Mike, they did not understand.
You had the answer there all along!
Devo, if you look back a couple of pages at your original question, it seems as if you were asking me if the Pharisees understood Jesus' answer about coming to sinners because it is the sick who need a doctor, and about having mercy.I assume that most of them did understand his explanation, although they didn't act on this teaching. But we really have no way of knowing what the Pharisees understood, and what they didn't understand. After all, it is not given to us to read the minds of people who live today – let alone those who lived 2000 years ago.
Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 07 2012,05:44) Mike, besides all that: Mark 2:17
….I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentanceLuke 5:31
….I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentanceAre these verses “added” too?
Luke 5:32 NET ©
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”The footnote says:
Though parallels exist to this saying (Matt 9:13; Mark 2:17), only Luke has this last phrase, but sinners to repentance. Repentance is a frequent topic in Luke’s Gospel: 3:3, 8; 13:1-5; 15:7, 10; 16:30; 17:3-4; 24:47.I'm not faulting the KJV on Matt 9:13 or Mark 2:17, because the words ARE in Luke's account, and the words don't add to or change the context of the scriptural teaching. But neither can I fault the other three Bibles you listed for adhering to the text in the older mss.
Shall we move on to the next verse?
Mike,Here's what you need to do.
*First seek out the processes required to obtain that mercy & healing & repentance under the old covenant.
*Then compare it with the process of the new covenant.
*Then discern the Pharisees understanding on that subject by the Old Covenant position.
*Then put them together in your mind.
*Then seek out in scripture if there was anything blocking the Pharisees from understanding besides all the other considerations.
*Then consider the mindset of the Pharisees you should have discerned due to their available teachings & how that would influence their ability to receive not only what Jesus said, but why Jesus had to say what he said.
*Then question whether Jesus did indeed need to say repentance within his explanation to the Pharisees based on understanding the processes above.
*Then put it together in your mind.
*Then compare that final answer to any bible that omits repentance from that verse.
*Then seek out why they are leaving out things that just happen to change key foundational doctrines & the divinity of Christ.
*Then seek out if this is happening in other religions.
*Then consider the current merging of faiths aiming for a one world religion.
*Then seek out the beliefs of the two men who compiled the Alexandrian mss into a translation now used as the only template from which these many bible versions originate, which have only in these last days entered Christian literature.
*Then put them together in your mind.
*Then we can carry on this subject.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 09 2012,01:31) devo Quote Matthew 15:12-14
Then came his disciples, and said unto him, “knowest now that the Pharisees were offended, and after they heard this saying”? But he answered and said, Every plant that my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.what is it you think Christ refers to when he said “PLANT ” AND planted ?
Terra,Quote what is it you think Christ refers to when he said “PLANT ” AND planted ? Now expand that understanding to include why Jesus gave this statement: “But go ye and learn what that means”.
*Do you think Jesus already knew if these Pharisees would go and learn what he told them to learn?
*Or do you think the reason Jesus told them the answer before they had the chance to go and learn was because they weren't going to go and learn it at all, thus Jesus explained it to them for a witness?Besides,
*Which plants do you think are able to understand & learn what Jesus was saying anyway?When you come to that answer, you will realize you didn't need to not only quote John at me, but how quoting John, in light of this understanding, was contradictory to your whole interpretation on this matter in the first place.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 05 2012,16:07) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2012,15:35) Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 04 2012,11:44) Edj Do you deny that Christ came in the flesh?
Please
Hi Georgie,It is not YOU instead who says he is yet to come on the flesh?
“Henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea,
though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we him no more.” (2Cor 5:16)“I go to my Father, and ye see me no more (as it were – in the flesh);” (John 16:10)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Georgie?Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 04 2012,11:44) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2012,08:14) Hi Georgie, “That he might sanctify and cleanse [the church]
with the washing of water by the word,” (Eph 5:26)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdjThat is not what it means in that verse.
No, why not?
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