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Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2012,12:17) 6) Jesus, while on Earth, said that he saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven (Taken as it written, this rules out Jesus as Being Michael) I have a list of such points as well. I have never heard your point #6 before. It is interesting. But I don't think Jesus literally saw with his eyes Satan and his angels falling from heaven after Michael (and his angels) and Satan (and his angels) battled.
“Then the seventy returned with joy, saying: “Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name.” At that he said to them: “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.”
He was saying he could already see it (in his mind). Because of what had just happened previously, it was so sure to happen, that it was real to him. Notice that this verse is connected in thought to the sentence before it, where the demons were shown to be made subject to him.Perhaps he was looking forward, seeing the time when Michael would battle with Satan and hurl him down, somewhat like he had just dealt with these demons.
I'm not one of those who believe Michael is Jesus. But I do understand that Jesus is most definitely an angel of his God.We in English use “messenger” for a human messenger of God, and “angel” for a spirit messenger of God. In the Hebrew and Greek languages, there was only one word to describe both.
It is not argued that Jesus was a human messenger of God, for he was a prophet and counselor sent by God who spoke the words God wanted him to speak. But many people overlook Rev 1:1, where it is made clear that even after his exaltation, Jesus is STILL a messenger of his God, albeit a spirit messenger now.
So no one can sensibly and honestly argue that Jesus is not an angel of God.
As for Toby's point #6, David assumes Jesus was speaking prophetically about when he WILL see Satan fall like lightning from heaven. David, it is not just your assumption, but must be the truth because John received a revelation from the exalted Jesus of things SOON TO HAPPEN. And in that revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN, Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven.
my two cents,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2012,05:47) Hi David,
Still reliant on and promoting evil JW theology?
Scripture is safer
Nick, that's ok, I forgive you.I'm not promoting the JW theology any more than you are promoting your buddhism. (I assumed you would make the connection, but I over estimated you yet again. I am sorry to be this way, but you often seem completely INCAPABLE of discussing scripture but can only use ad hominims, and you have literally done this thousands of times over the years.
if you were a moderator, I would have fired you 6 years ago.
Quote As for Toby's point #6, David assumes Jesus was speaking prophetically about when he WILL see Satan fall like lightning from heaven. David, it is not just your assumption, but must be the truth because John received a revelation from the exalted Jesus of things SOON TO HAPPEN. And in that revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN, Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven. –Mike.
Agreed. But you say David “assumes” but then go on to say it must be truth.
Quote So no one can sensibly and honestly argue that Jesus is not an angel of God. –Mike
Oh, believe me, they can argue it.
Again, on 1Thess:
For those who have previously said: ‘It was just an archangels voice accompanying Jesus, but it wasn’t Jesus himself who had the commanding call.’ John 5:25,28 solves the problem: “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.” So in 1 thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John 5, it is the voice of the Son of God! One cannot be wrong and the other right.
In both Thessalonians and John we see that the voice causes the resurrection of life. The dead in Christ will rise when they hear His voice! This is the same event.
But in one occount, we are told that it is Jesus' voice, and the dead rise.
In the other account, it is an “archangels' voice” that is heard, and the dead rise.(John 5:25) “Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.
(John 5:28) Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus'] voice…
1 THESSALONIANS 4:16
“because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”These accounts mention Jesus “voice” and an “archangel's voice” and both accounts involve the resurrection.
Another thought:
JW say that since Jesus is the one prophesied to crush Satan’s head, and since he accomplishes all these other judgment acts, it is only logical to conclude that he would lead heaven’s armies in the casting of Satan out of heaven. Hence, the conquering Michael referred to in Revelation 12 must be Jesus, who was told by Jehovah to “go subduing in the midst of [his] enemies.”—Psalm 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34, 35.
Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2012,12:53) Quote As for Toby's point #6, David assumes Jesus was speaking prophetically about when he WILL see Satan fall like lightning from heaven. David, it is not just your assumption, but must be the truth because John received a revelation from the exalted Jesus of things SOON TO HAPPEN. And in that revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN, Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven. –Mike.
Agreed. But you say David “assumes” but then go on to say it must be truth.
You stated it as if that was the logical conclusion, and therefore you assumed that was what was meant by Jesus' words.I just added the scriptural proof to what you had already concluded in your mind.
No disrespect was intended. I merely showed scriptural support of what you were already thinking.
Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2012,12:54) Quote So no one can sensibly and honestly argue that Jesus is not an angel of God. –Mike
Oh, believe me, they can argue it.
Of course they can. But not sensibly and honestly.
Quote (david @ Mar. 26 2012,12:53) Quote As for Toby's point #6, David assumes Jesus was speaking prophetically about when he WILL see Satan fall like lightning from heaven. David, it is not just your assumption, but must be the truth because John received a revelation from the exalted Jesus of things SOON TO HAPPEN. And in that revelation of things SOON TO HAPPEN, Satan and his angels were thrown out of heaven. –Mike.
Agreed. But you say David “assumes” but then go on to say it must be truth.
Davidsins God as given all things to his Son ,could it be that Michael his also one of the chief angel in Christ the son of God army
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,13:49) Hi Mb,
So to you he is a lesser god and an angel[pass the scriptures please]
Are all angels gods?
Yes Nick. In the terminology of the writers of the scriptures, angels are gods, and some are even called such in scripture.And the scriptures you've asked me to pass have been listed, but here you go anyway:
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.Nick, was Jesus a spirit being who was delivering a message for his God? YES or NO?
If “YES” (which is the only correct answer), then Jesus is most definitely an angel of his God by definition.
Hi MB,
Jesus was a man.
Scripture says so several times.
Are you speaking of the WORD OF LIFE?Derivations from logic have little value compared with truth
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,14:33) Hi MB,
Jesus was a man.
Scripture says so several times.
Are you speaking of the WORD OF LIFE?Derivations from logic have little value compared with truth
Yes Nick,Scripture DOES say that Jesus partook of flesh since the children were of flesh. We all agree that Jesus was a man at one time, so you can let this “argument” go – because no one is arguing against that point.
BUT…………………………..
Will you only believe HALF of the scriptures, Nick? Will you base your entire understanding on only HALF of the evidence?
Paul CLEARLY said that “JESUS CHRIST” was existing in the form of God before being made into a human being. That means he was JESUS, and he was the CHRIST – before being made into the likeness of a human being.
Deviations from what the scriptures actually say are of little value, Nick.
Hi MB,
Does it mean that?
If Jesus the Nazarene was a man what does partaking of flesh mean?Could it be it is about Jesus becoming the Christ?
The WORD became flesh and dwelt among us.
Hi David, Nick, and all, thanks for the info.
David,
While I don't disagree with your possible interpretation of '1 Thess 4:16', I would like you to clarify and satisfy yourself and me, that the text could not mean that the shout was:
'Like that of An ArchAngel'
and not necessarily that the shout was:
'That of THE ArchAngel'.Mike, Jesus most certainly was 'An Angel of God' in terms of the word 'Angel' meaning 'Messenger'.
However, just as you would not claim that a 'Human Angel' was a 'Heavenly Spirit Angel', I don't see how you are claiming that Jesus was a 'Heavenly Angel Spirit', when you yourself claim that Jesus was not a created Being? And that was the context in which I asked the question … 'was Jesus an Angel?'
If you desire to keep your understanding of this, then you will need to explain how you say that Jesus was not Created, when all the other Angels were said to be created.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,14:21) Hi David, Michael is the Archangel of God. (see Jude 1:9 and 1Thess 4:16)
God bless
Ed J
Hi Everyone,Jesus is the firstborn Son among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)
Big difference between Jesus Christ and Michael the Archangel!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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