Micah 5

[mikeboll64]

Hi All,

Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
      though you are small among the clans of Judah,
      out of you will come for me
      one who will be ruler over Israel,
      whose origins are from of old,
      from ancient times. “

This scripture is quoted by Matthew as being a prophecy of the coming Christ, so there's no doubt as to who this passage is about.  But what else does it say about God's Christ?

Micah 5:4 NIV
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
      in the strength of the LORD,
      in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
      And they will live securely, for then his greatness
      will reach to the ends of the earth.

This Christ is clearly someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God.  Is there anyone out there who can read verse 4 and still think “Jesus IS God”?

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
This passage is about the Son AFTER humbling Himself and becoming flesh. He takes on a different role than He had before, the Son of Man role. Once He became the Son of Man as well as who He was and continued to be as the Son of God, He didn't 'unbecome' the Son of Man, although He was exalted to the right hand of the Father and His glory that He had before flesh was returned.

In the NT, you will often see Him speaking in one passage according to His divinity, and then in another passage, according to His humanity.

An example of Him speaking as to His divinity:

John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”
NASU

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kathi,

This was the question I asked:

This Christ is clearly someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his God. Is there anyone out there who can read verse 4 and still think “Jesus IS God”?

Do you have an answer?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Let me expand on my thought Kathi. If Jesus has to shepherd the flock in the strength of his God, then Jesus is clearly someone OTHER THAN AND LESSOR TO his God, right?

And this passage is about a time to come yet. We do not all live securely right now. This is about when God's Kingdom will be on earth, IMO. So this is AFTER Jesus has been restored to heaven and is sitting at the right hand of his God. Yet he still is OTHER THAN AND LESSOR TO his God.

mike

[JustAskin]

Jesus is not God Almighty.

Whoever said he was?

Other than Trinitarians and we have proved them to be untruthful by their creed.

Mike, was someone saying that Jesus was/is God?

[mikeboll64]

Yes JA,

Both Kathi and SF, who are NOT trinitarians, have trouble with Jesus being a separate being who is other than AND lessor to his God.

mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
I think that the trouble you are having is in understanding that the Son humbled Himself to the Father and took on the form of a servant.

Phil 2:7
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
NASU

So, was He always a bond-servant of God's or did He take the form of a bond-servant?  He wasn't emptied before He emptied Himself.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,15:58)

Mike, I think that the trouble you are having is in understanding that the Son humbled Himself to the Father and took on the form of a servant. Phil 2:7 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. NASU So, was He always a bond-servant of God's or did He take the form of a bond-servant?  He wasn't emptied before He emptied Himself.

kathi

so you agree that Jesus is the son of God and nothing else

so he empty himself of what he was before came and do the works of the one who send him his God,
then pleaded to be restored to his original position,this is so done with a bonus.

now what;mission accomplish

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,08:58)

Mike, I think that the trouble you are having is in understanding that the Son humbled Himself to the Father and took on the form of a servant. Phil 2:7 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. NASU So, was He always a bond-servant of God's or did He take the form of a bond-servant?  He wasn't emptied before He emptied Himself.

Kathi!  I hope that you are not calling Jehovah God Lord any more?   Because Christ never was LORD, He is and always will be Lord and King of Kings and Lord of Lords, even though in Rev. 1:16 it is in capital letters….yes, He emptied Himself to become a man, but He still is Mighty God and not Almighty God….agree?  I wonder and that is why I am asking…..Micah is an instants that you can see the difference.  Christ is standing in the strength of the LORD.  Almighty God……..Peace and Love Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 24 2010,16:33)

Mike, This passage is about the Son AFTER humbling Himself and becoming flesh.  He takes on a different role than He had before, the Son of Man role.  Once He became the Son of Man as well as who He was and continued to be as the Son of God, He didn't 'unbecome' the Son of Man, although He was exalted to the right hand of the Father and His glory that He had before flesh was returned. In the NT, you will often see Him speaking in one passage according to His divinity, and then in another passage, according to His humanity. An example of Him speaking as to His divinity: John 11:25-27 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.” NASU

Kathi! I just read this, and I disagree that Christ went back to Heaven in the flesh. Is that what you are saying? When in fact Christ went back to the glory He had with Jehovah God before the world was. If flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, then we have to agree that Christ before He became like a Servant, was a Spirit Being and not in the flesh, and went back to being so…..Also Christs Kingdom is spiritual and Georg believes that He is now preparing all those Saints that died for Christ, to rule with Him in the Millennium……Peace and Love Irene
P.S. what Christ can do is manifest Himself into a Human Being, like He did when He met Thomas to show Him that it was Christ….Just like the Angels can do too……But He cannot be both, which I think you are implying…..IMO tell me I am wrong?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 25 2010,10:04)

…..Micah is an instants that you can see the difference.  Christ is standing in the strength of the LORD.  Almighty God……..Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

Beautiful!  You get the whole reason for the thread!  I believe that this is definitely a scripture that no trinitarian or “Jesus is God” believer can argue away.  

They can't say it's not about Jesus, for Matt 2:6 verifies that it is.  And knowing it IS about Jesus, I can't imagine any way they can twist the words to imply any kind of equality between Jehovah and His “shepherd”.

I guess time will tell………….let's see what they come up with!

peace and love and thanks for your comment,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 25 2010,08:58)

Mike, I think that the trouble you are having is in understanding that the Son humbled Himself to the Father and took on the form of a servant. So, was He always a bond-servant of God's or did He take the form of a bond-servant?  He wasn't emptied before He emptied Himself.

Hi Kathi,

Was Jesus raised back to heaven with the same glory and position he had when he left heaven?  Or was it an even better glory and position?  

Either way, after being raised back to what most think was an even higher position, he is STILL a servant of his God, as attested to at least 4 times in the book of Acts.

And what's the other option anyway?  That before he came in the flesh, he actually WAS God Almighty, but now he's just a servant of the same God he used to be?  

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Jesus is a servant to His 'Head' but that doesn't diminish the fact that He is as inseparable to the Father as the radiance is to the glory. My hands are my servants and they do exactly what I tell them to do, they are an important part of me and inseparable to me. That is just an illustration but it is an illustration to show that someone that is a part of the fullness of another by serving the other is still part of the fullness. The Son is the radiance of the Father's glory and of course the Father would not give the 'radiance of His glory,' His own glory to which He is the radiance of already.

I am totally at peace to understand the Son as a vital part of the Father, the one true God, who in His fullness includes the Son and the Spirit.

I will seek to know God more fully and worship Him more fully in response.

The fullness of God=the Father with His Son and His Spirit, not apart from the Son and the Spirit, but together with the Son and the Spirit.

[david]

The fullness of a husband=The husband with his wife, not apart from his wife, but together with his wife.

They are said to “become one flesh.” This means they become united in purpose, etc. But the husband, is still a husband, even if he's on the other side of the planet from his wife.
So we could say that:

Similarly, Jesus and his disciples are “one” “JUST AS” Jesus and his Father are “one.” They are one in purpose.
So we could say that:

The fullness Christians (Jesus' followers)=Christians united with and following Jesus, together with Jesus.

Jesus may now be inseparable from his Father, as Jesus followers are inseparable from him.
They are “one” with Jesus, “just as” Jesus is “one” with his Father. (The Bible.)

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kathi,

This thread is about Micah 5.  Does verse 4 indicate that God's shepherd will rule in the power and majesty of the name of Jehovah…….HIS GOD, or not?  

David has answered your “radiance” point VERY intelligently in the “worship” thread, yet you said he was “over-analyzing” it.  

Please stay on topic and tell me if, even after Jesus was raised back to power and authority, he will STILL rule in the power of his God?

Then, we can talk about Ex 34:24 and Jer 30:9.  

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Ok, ok, I'll try to stay on topic here
I agree with what John Gill says about this verse:

Quote

Micah 5:4 Ver. 4. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord,…. The ruler in Israel, before described and prophesied of; the Messiah, as Kimchi himself interprets it, and other Jewish writers. Kimchi's note is, “after the affliction, the King Messiah shall stand and feed Israel in the strength of the Lord;'' and so R. Isaac {t} paraphrases the words exactly in the same way: wherefore, as another learned Jew {u} observes, these expressions evince that the ruler here spoken of can be no other than the Messiah; not Zerubbabel, who never attained to this height and happiness. He is both King and Shepherd, and to each of these the act of feeding is ascribed. The same word, in the Greek language, signifies both to rule and to feed and is used by Matthew, Mt 2:6; and kings are often compared to shepherds. Christ feeds his people, his brethren, his flock, his sheep, and lambs all truly converted ones; and this takes in the whole office of a shepherd, and the care he has of his flock; he takes an exact account of them, goes before them, and leads them out into good pastures; sets under shepherds over them; protects them from, all their enemies; looks after what is lost or driven away; heals the sick, strengthens the weak, binds up the broken, and watches over his flock continually: he feeds them with, himself, the bread of life, with his flesh and blood, which are meat and drink indeed; with the doctrines and ordinances of the Gospel; and which are found to be spiritual, savoury, strengthening, satisfying, and soul nourishing food: and he “stands” and does this, being raised from the dead, and possessed of all power in heaven and in earth; which designs not the position of his body, but the ministration of his office, and his alacrity and readiness to perform it, and his constancy in it: and all this “in the strength of the Lord”; in his own strength, as a divine Person, which is the same with the strength of Jehovah; and in the power and strength that is dispensed to him as Mediator; and with his Gospel, the rod of his strength, and in such manner as to defend his flock from all that would devour them: in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; Jehovah the Father is the God of Christ, as is Mediator; and his name is in him, even the majesty of it; for, as a divine Person, he has the same nature and perfections with him; and as man, exalted at his right hand, has a name above every name in this world, or that to come; and it is by authority from him, in his office capacity, that he rules and feeds his people, having all judgment committed to him:

http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

So, Jesus rules in His own power since He is divine and also the power of His Father as it says in the quote since it was the Father that gave Him authority to be in the office of mediator. Sort of like this…if your boss left you in charge of the business for a month, you would take charge both using your own power but also have the power of having been given the authority. In contrast, if your boss went away for a month and said that he was still in charge but never checked in and you tried to operate the business and rule over all the employees…well, you weren't given the power to rule over the other employees and you would be much less effective than if you had been given that power of authority. When you were given the authority, you had your own power plus the power of that authority that you were given.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,15:52)

So, Jesus rules in His own power…….

Okay, let me stop you right there Kathi. That's not what the scripture says, so let's not then suppose that's what is meant.

In fact, to the contrary of saying Jesus will rule in “his own power”, it actually CLEARLY says “He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.”

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
In the strength of the LORD (i.e. according to His divinity)…Jesus is the LORD.
The 'LORD his God' is the Father.
The LORD is Himself according to His divinity.

[mikeboll64]

Again in understandable English please.

Seriously, I have NO idea what you are saying. Could you “dumb it down” for me?

mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
What do you not get about Jesus BEING the Lord? The Father made Him both Christ and Lord…remember?

[Author]

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