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Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,19:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 25 2009,13:41) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,11:56) Quote (Gene @ July 25 2009,08:57) Thinker……….Jesus said to Prey like this, OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN (do you see Jesus who is in heaven here), and again He told His disciples when they pray to go in their closet and shut the door and (YOUR FATHER WHO SEES IN SECRETE WILL REWARD YOU OPENLY. Another thing who was Jesus our example praying to when He was on earth, who did he offer up prayer to, was it not the (ONE) who could save Him. Jesus is the (DOOR), a door is (NOT) the OBJECT it is the access to the OBJECT, the OBJECT is GOD the Father. Pray to GOD the FATHER and if you ask in the name of Christ that is fine also, But you are praying to the FATHER as Jesus did. IMO much peace and love………………………gene
Gene,
Jesus told HIS DISCIPLES to pray that way. He was not talking to us. He told THEM to pray for the kingdom to come. But Christians today don't need to ask for the kingdom to come because it is here.Jesus is in heaven now and has ALL authority. We may therefore pray to Him directly. Stephen did and so did Saul and Ananias. John told us that if we ask anything of the Son of God that is according to HIS will He will give it to us (1 John 5:13-15). He has inherited ALL THINGS. So He has the authority to give anything to us if we ask Him.
Don't take statements that Jesus made before He was exalted and apply them to us today. In the new covenant age we may pray to the Father or the Son. The old covenant age still existed when Jesus taught His disciples to pray. Please don't bind me to your old covenant stuff.
thinker
So Jesus is part of the OLD covenant?So can you show us where Jesus told his disciples to pray another way or where he gave them future instructions for the “NEW AGE” Doctrine you believe in.
Jesus told His disciples that He had many more things to say to them that would be revealed to them by the Holy spirit. The new instructions came to them through the Holy Spirit and we have those instructions in their writings. For instance, 1 John 5:13-15 CLEARLY says that we may ask for things of the Son of God if it be according to His will,Quote I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him. There it is! And Stephen is an example. He asked Jesus to receive his spirit and to forgive those who stoned him. It is clear that a change was taking place with the coming of the kingdom and the new covenant age. But anti-trinitarians and even many trinitarians are still imposing old covenant stuff like the “Lord's prayer” on people today. But hebrews says that we are to LEAVE the elementary teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ's teachings were old covenant,
Quote Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits (Hebrews 6:1-3) There it is! They were commanded to LEAVE the teachings of Christ and go on to maturity. When it comes time to cite the “Lord's prayer” in my church I do not participate. I am not suppsed to ask for the kingdom to come. It is here! The kingdom arrived when Jesus was exalted. I am not supposed to ask for forgivensss. I have been forgiven unconditionally. I am not supposed to pray “our Father.” For one thing I am not Jewish! And I may pray to Jesus Himself (1 John 5:13-15). Stephen did (Acts 7:59-60).
thinker
So they were commanded to be Anti-Christ, right?Where is this Kingdom you speak of and where is the lion laying with the lamb?
Where is our King and where is Peace?
bodhitharta said:
Quote Where is this Kingdom you speak of and where is the lion laying with the lamb? Where is our King and where is Peace?
“Who has delivered us from the domain of darkness and has conveyed us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13.”
The lion and the lamb metaphors refer to prophecy that has already been fulfilled. sorry.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 26 2009,04:03) bodhitharta said: Quote Where is this Kingdom you speak of and where is the lion laying with the lamb? Where is our King and where is Peace?
“Who has delivered us from the domain of darkness and has conveyed us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13.”
The lion and the lamb metaphors refer to prophecy that has already been fulfilled. sorry.
thinker
So they were commanded to be Anti-Christ, right?So what do the lion and lamb metaphors mean?
Quote (thethinker @ July 26 2009,05:17) bodhitharta said: Quote So they were commanded to be Anti-Christ, right? 
thinker
You wrote:“But hebrews says that we are to LEAVE the elementary teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ's teachings were old covenant,”
So you are anti-Christ, right?
Now Jesus is God and has all authority and the office of Christ has ended?
Quote (942767 @ July 24 2009,16:03) Quote (thethinker @ July 24 2009,11:26) To All,
The following provides conclusive evidence that men prayed to Jesus in the book of acts. Brother Nick has explained away 1 John 5:13-15. But can he explain away all of these?Stephen, Acts 7:59-60: And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Saul, 9:4-6: And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”
Ananias, 9:10-15: Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.
Stephen: He asked Jesus to do two things: to receive his spirit and to forgive those who stoned him.
Saul: He fell to the ground trembling before Jesus and asked Him what He wanted him to do.
Ananias: He discoursed with Jesus questioning His will concerning Saul but finally obeyed. Jesus told Ananias that Saul was “praying.” It was Jesus to whom Saul was praying.
Okay brother Nick. Do your sleight of hand thing.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, and so, yes it is possible to speak to him, and in fact he hears our prayer that we pray to the Father, but he said this relative to prayer:
Quote Luk 11:1 ¶ And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name….”And so, I pray to his God and my God and his Father and my Father.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94Scriptures are clear that men call on Jesus, for it is only by the name of Jesus that every man is saved.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him For whosoever shall “call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.. Rom 10:12, 13
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all “that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours“: 1Cor 1:2
We have fellowship with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and that is done through prayer! Prayer is addressing or communicating with God who is invisible through our minds or our words.
The Greek word for “call upon” is Strong's G1941 – epikaleō which means…
“an expression finding its explanation in the fact that prayers addressed to God ordinarily began with an invocation of the divine name”
Meaning to call upon the name Jesus Christ is calling on the divine name. Thats why everything is done in the name of “Jesus”. “In the name of Jesus” is not just some catchy little phraise we use at the end of our prayers as if there is some magic to it. “In the name of Jesus' means we truly are in him and identified with him.
Remember the Vagobonds…Acts 19:13-17
The same word is used in praying to the Father here…
And if ye “call on (epikaleō) the Father“, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1 Peter 1:7
Blessings WJ
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 26 2009,05:21) Quote (thethinker @ July 26 2009,05:17) bodhitharta said: Quote So they were commanded to be Anti-Christ, right? thinker
You wrote:“But hebrews says that we are to LEAVE the elementary teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ's teachings were old covenant,”
So you are anti-Christ, right?
Now Jesus is God and has all authority and the office of Christ has ended?
You say that to leave the old covenant teachings of Christ is “anti-christ.” But the author to the Hebrews says that to not leave them is apostasy:1 “Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and ofinstruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt“.
Those who have tasted of the new covenant and then go back to the old covenant teachings of Christ are apostates. It is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Christ died to bring the full end to the old covenant. Those who revive Christ's old covenant teachings harm themselves and show contempt toward the Son of God.
thinker
thinker ……….the elementary teachings (OF) Christ means (ABOUT Christ) is what is being talked about here not the teachings of Christ but about HIM. They are elementary because they are first step teachings, basic ones. Check out the word (OF). Again if you would not forget what Jesus and GOD the Fathers has said in the past you could easily understand this. But Trinitarians don't seem able to sum scriptures and derive simple meanings from them so they have to make them complex to comply with their false teachings of another GOD, even though GOD said He looked for another GOD, and said there were no other GOD'S, but HIM (ALONE) what part of that don't you Trinitarians understand or do you just throw that out along with the hundreds of other scriptures that show us there is (ONLY) ONE true GOD> thinker dump the false teachings of the TRINITY.
peace and love …………………..gene
Quote (thethinker @ July 26 2009,07:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 26 2009,05:21) Quote (thethinker @ July 26 2009,05:17) bodhitharta said: Quote So they were commanded to be Anti-Christ, right? thinker
You wrote:“But hebrews says that we are to LEAVE the elementary teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ's teachings were old covenant,”
So you are anti-Christ, right?
Now Jesus is God and has all authority and the office of Christ has ended?
You say that to leave the old covenant teachings of Christ is “anti-christ.” But the author to the Hebrews says that to not leave them is apostasy:1 “Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and ofinstruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt“.
Those who have tasted of the new covenant and then go back to the old covenant teachings of Christ are apostates. It is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Christ died to bring the full end to the old covenant. Those who revive Christ's old covenant teachings harm themselves and show contempt toward the Son of God.
thinker
Paul is talking about those who accepted Christ and then fell away. He is saying that they should not have be taught to accept Christ again as if Christ can die again for their sins.It is a scripture warning against backsliding.
If you love Jesus you would keep what he commanded.
You see many people who Paul preached to took what he preached as an excuse to Sin. I know many Christians today who sin all the time with the Paulian excuses of the flesh being sinful so they worship God in mind but in body sin has its way.
Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,19:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 25 2009,13:41) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,11:56) Quote (Gene @ July 25 2009,08:57) Thinker……….Jesus said to Prey like this, OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN (do you see Jesus who is in heaven here), and again He told His disciples when they pray to go in their closet and shut the door and (YOUR FATHER WHO SEES IN SECRETE WILL REWARD YOU OPENLY. Another thing who was Jesus our example praying to when He was on earth, who did he offer up prayer to, was it not the (ONE) who could save Him. Jesus is the (DOOR), a door is (NOT) the OBJECT it is the access to the OBJECT, the OBJECT is GOD the Father. Pray to GOD the FATHER and if you ask in the name of Christ that is fine also, But you are praying to the FATHER as Jesus did. IMO much peace and love………………………gene
Gene,
Jesus told HIS DISCIPLES to pray that way. He was not talking to us. He told THEM to pray for the kingdom to come. But Christians today don't need to ask for the kingdom to come because it is here.Jesus is in heaven now and has ALL authority. We may therefore pray to Him directly. Stephen did and so did Saul and Ananias. John told us that if we ask anything of the Son of God that is according to HIS will He will give it to us (1 John 5:13-15). He has inherited ALL THINGS. So He has the authority to give anything to us if we ask Him.
Don't take statements that Jesus made before He was exalted and apply them to us today. In the new covenant age we may pray to the Father or the Son. The old covenant age still existed when Jesus taught His disciples to pray. Please don't bind me to your old covenant stuff.
thinker
So Jesus is part of the OLD covenant?So can you show us where Jesus told his disciples to pray another way or where he gave them future instructions for the “NEW AGE” Doctrine you believe in.
Jesus told His disciples that He had many more things to say to them that would be revealed to them by the Holy spirit. The new instructions came to them through the Holy Spirit and we have those instructions in their writings. For instance, 1 John 5:13-15 CLEARLY says that we may ask for things of the Son of God if it be according to His will,Quote I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him. There it is! And Stephen is an example. He asked Jesus to receive his spirit and to forgive those who stoned him. It is clear that a change was taking place with the coming of the kingdom and the new covenant age. But anti-trinitarians and even many trinitarians are still imposing old covenant stuff like the “Lord's prayer” on people today. But hebrews says that we are to LEAVE the elementary teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ's teachings were old covenant,
Quote Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits (Hebrews 6:1-3) There it is! They were commanded to LEAVE the teachings of Christ and go on to maturity. When it comes time to cite the “Lord's prayer” in my church I do not participate. I am not suppsed to ask for the kingdom to come. It is here! The kingdom arrived when Jesus was exalted. I am not supposed to ask for forgivensss. I have been forgiven unconditionally. I am not supposed to pray “our Father.” For one thing I am not Jewish! And I may pray to Jesus Himself (1 John 5:13-15). Stephen did (Acts 7:59-60).
thinker
thinker………You have made Jesus your GOD and are creating a man GOD , this is turning Jesus into a man of Sin. AS 2thes 2 shows. It is a sin to have another GOD besides the (ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD) believe Jesus' word and you would not be having this problem. Jesus instructed us all how to pray and it was not to pray to HIM even though we can ask in his name , there is a big difference between asking in someones name and Praying to HIM as a GOD. Read what i wrote on the MAN Of SIN, all who preach more than (ONE GOD) will suffer great Loss brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ July 26 2009,16:12) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,19:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 25 2009,13:41) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,11:56) Quote (Gene @ July 25 2009,08:57) Thinker……….Jesus said to Prey like this, OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN (do you see Jesus who is in heaven here), and again He told His disciples when they pray to go in their closet and shut the door and (YOUR FATHER WHO SEES IN SECRETE WILL REWARD YOU OPENLY. Another thing who was Jesus our example praying to when He was on earth, who did he offer up prayer to, was it not the (ONE) who could save Him. Jesus is the (DOOR), a door is (NOT) the OBJECT it is the access to the OBJECT, the OBJECT is GOD the Father. Pray to GOD the FATHER and if you ask in the name of Christ that is fine also, But you are praying to the FATHER as Jesus did. IMO much peace and love………………………gene
Gene,
Jesus told HIS DISCIPLES to pray that way. He was not talking to us. He told THEM to pray for the kingdom to come. But Christians today don't need to ask for the kingdom to come because it is here.Jesus is in heaven now and has ALL authority. We may therefore pray to Him directly. Stephen did and so did Saul and Ananias. John told us that if we ask anything of the Son of God that is according to HIS will He will give it to us (1 John 5:13-15). He has inherited ALL THINGS. So He has the authority to give anything to us if we ask Him.
Don't take statements that Jesus made before He was exalted and apply them to us today. In the new covenant age we may pray to the Father or the Son. The old covenant age still existed when Jesus taught His disciples to pray. Please don't bind me to your old covenant stuff.
thinker
So Jesus is part of the OLD covenant?So can you show us where Jesus told his disciples to pray another way or where he gave them future instructions for the “NEW AGE” Doctrine you believe in.
Jesus told His disciples that He had many more things to say to them that would be revealed to them by the Holy spirit. The new instructions came to them through the Holy Spirit and we have those instructions in their writings. For instance, 1 John 5:13-15 CLEARLY says that we may ask for things of the Son of God if it be according to His will,Quote I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him. There it is! And Stephen is an example. He asked Jesus to receive his spirit and to forgive those who stoned him. It is clear that a change was taking place with the coming of the kingdom and the new covenant age. But anti-trinitarians and even many trinitarians are still imposing old covenant stuff like the “Lord's prayer” on people today. But hebrews says that we are to LEAVE the elementary teachings of Christ. Why? Because Christ's teachings were old covenant,
Quote Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits (Hebrews 6:1-3) There it is! They were commanded to LEAVE the teachings of Christ and go on to maturity. When it comes time to cite the “Lord's prayer” in my church I do not participate. I am not suppsed to ask for the kingdom to come. It is here! The kingdom arrived when Jesus was exalted. I am not supposed to ask for forgivensss. I have been forgiven unconditionally. I am not supposed to pray “our Father.” For one thing I am not Jewish! And I may pray to Jesus Himself (1 John 5:13-15). Stephen did (Acts 7:59-60).
thinker
thinker………You have made Jesus your GOD and are creating a man GOD , this is turning Jesus into a man of Sin. AS 2thes 2 shows. It is a sin to have another GOD besides the (ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD) believe Jesus' word and you would not be having this problem. Jesus instructed us all how to pray and it was not to pray to HIM even though we can ask in his name , there is a big difference between asking in someones name and Praying to HIM as a GOD. Read what i wrote on the MAN Of SIN, all who preach more than (ONE GOD) will suffer great Loss brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Amen!Gene said:
Quote thinker………You have made Jesus your GOD and are creating a man GOD , this is turning Jesus into a man of Sin. AS 2thes 2 shows. It is a sin to have another GOD besides the (ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD) believe Jesus' word and you would not be having this problem. Jesus instructed us all how to pray and it was not to pray to HIM even though we can ask in his name , there is a big difference between asking in someones name and Praying to HIM as a GOD. Read what i wrote on the MAN Of SIN, all who preach more than (ONE GOD) will suffer great Loss brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Gene,
Bodhitharta denies our Lord was crucified. How come you haven't rebuked him yet? Are bd's errors more pleasing to you?thinker
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