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Let's look at this in point form:
POINT FORM:
-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
–The Bible gives no indication that the holy spirit was worshiped.
–The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures give no hint even that the holy spirit is a person, much less that it is worshiped as God. (They viewed God’s spirit as something God possesses.)
–The holy spirit is never portrayed as a person, sitting on a throne for example…it's shown to be God's finger, his hand, a dove, fire, etc, etc….but never shown or pictured as a distinct person.
–The holy spirit is left out on a whole lot–knowing what God knows–being there pictured with Jesus and his Father in all the visions, etc.
–It is without question given a secondary position in scripture. (John 17:3) All the greetings of the apostle Paul's letters, not to mention James, Peter and John open by saying something like: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) They seem to be unfamiliar with the third part of the trinity. Why?
–The holy spirit has no distinctive name unlike Jehovah and Jesus and everyone else.
–The holy spirit is God's holy spirit, “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” It is something God possesses.
–The capital letters in your Bible that show Holy Spirit mean absolutely nothing. The Greek word for spirit is neuter and most Greek manuscripts employ “it” with reference to the holy spirit.
–The holy spirit is used in parallel with very impersonal things–water and fire for example. Another example: “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.” (2 cor 6:4-6)
–You can be filled with holy spirit just as you can be filled with wisdom and faith or joy. Lumping the holy spirit in with impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
–The holy spirit being part of a trinity was not really an established belief until a few hundred years after Christ, coincidentally, many other apostasy like changes had occurred around this time.
–It's quite often spoken of in a way that indicates it is not a person. It is referred to as a “gift.” It is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. It can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. Holy spirit was ‘given,’ and ‘poured out upon,’ It can be quenched. People can drink of it. The holy spirit also renews us and must be stirred up within us. Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it.
–In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship and love between himself and his Father. He doesn't do this of the holy spirit.These are the facts. They are indisputable.
Quote This also reminds me of a study I did on the verbs surrounding the Holy Spirit which is proof the Spirit is a person. I will post it here since Davids argument is the Holy Spirit being mentioned in Matt 28:19 is not a person. So if the Spirit is not a person then why did the translators translate Jn 16:13 and others with the personal pronouns?
–wj
Regarding this post, that WJ and Thinker congradulated each other on, let's consider how the WHOLE Bible pictures the holy spirit, before we get all excited.
USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
Notice the way the holy spirit is used in association with other impersonal things. You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith. . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land . . . “
MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 2:33; 10:38,45; 1 Timothy 4:14). The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19) People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13) The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.PERSONIFICATION DOES NOT PROVE PERSONALITY
Go back and look at the very first two questions I asked: “Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person? Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?
Today, we speak of the Bible in a similar manner when we say that it says something or teaches a doctrine. We can say that the Bible helps, comforts, guides us, etc. In using such expressions, we do not mean that the Bible is a person, do we? Since scriptures speak of the holy spirit in an impersonal way, these other expressions must be a figure of speech– personification. Personification is a universally understood use of language.
In the Bible the holy spirit is personified, but this is not unusual in the Bible.
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12)
Paul speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.”
There is a host of other scriptures giving “personalities” to hands, ears, trees, hills, mountains, the earth, heaven, and many other inanimate things. (1 Cor 12:15,16; Ps 96,11,12; Is 55:12)
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. All three are said to BE witnesses. But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
IN WHAT SENSE DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAK?
While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Mark 13:11; Luke 12: 12; Acts 1:16; Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Acts 13:2,9,10; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.)
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Personification is actually a vivid way in which the Scriptures sometimes express matters.
While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through
persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
HEBREWS 3:7
“For this reason, just as the holy spirit says: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”
HEBREWS 10:15-17
“Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’” [it says afterwards:] “And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.””
PSALM 95:7
“For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasturage and the sheep of his hand. Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”
JEREMIAH 31:33-34
““For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.””
ACTS 19:2-6
“and he said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when YOU became believers?” They said to him: “Why, we have never heard whether there is a holy spirit.” And he said: “In what, then, were YOU baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism [in symbol] of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the holy spirit came upon them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”
ACTS 21:4
“By a search we found the disciples and remained here seven days. But through the spirit they repeatedly told Paul not to set foot in Jerusalem.”
ACTS 28:25
“So, because they were at disagreement with one another, they began to depart, while Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to YOUR forefathers,”So, for those who ignored the above, there are 3 things pointed out:
1. The holy spirit is often listed with things that are clearly impersonal.
2. It is often spoken of in a way that indicates it is not a person.
3. Personification does not prove personality. (Example: “Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?” We speak this way so much, we probably didn't even realize that personification was in it. Do you see it? Personification is a universally understood use of language…. well, almost universally understood.Quote the Blood witnessed as the shedding of blood as in what seals the deal, when we read hebrews we read that everything was sealed in blood, like in every law Moses sprinkles the blood of animals on the book and on the people. and than hebrews says how much more is the blood of the Son of God? and Water is comparable to eternal life, never ending, colorless, never being thirsty again. The Holy Spirit to forever be with us, it is God in Us, aruond Us, always guiding Us. –Dennison (SF)
But are the blood and the water, persons? The argument is that since the holy spirit “helps” “guides” etc, it MUST be a person. Well the blood and the water bear witness or testify. Must they be persons? They are not people.
Quote And that i know that God a purpose for every word and intent in the bible. So again, how can we limit ourselves with siding with 50 when God wrote 51. Get what im saying?
I get you.
But i see limitations there.
But my question again, do you want to shift the focus and interpret what Jesus was sayin literaly and than draw conclusions or just hold account that Jesus mentioned three? and not 4 and 5 and 6. or one or two.
–SF
But, SF, I am siding with all 51. Although this is not exactly the case here, what often happens is, someone has a belief, that they've had forever and they find one scripture, which can be interpreted 10 different ways, and they build a belief around that one scripture. But when there are 50 other scriptures that speak of the very same thing, but in a much more clear way, I believe we have to include them, and even focus more on them, since they are clearer.
With Matthew 28:19, it is not like Revelation, it is very clear. But the question is: What does it actually say? What doesn't it say?Quote Just a quick response since i happen to be awake at 4am. –SF
Quote Hey David again… its 5am now.. –SF
When do you sleep?
Quote You really made a puzzle around this that can make you easily accusable.
How so?WJ, you have to get a new name. I told you “Worshiping Jesus” was a bad name. In the past page, Dennison referred to you 3 times as JW. (Which is both confusing and slightly ironic.)
Quote In your response to my post you completely skimmed over the scriptures that prove the personality of the Holy Spirit which I will get to later. –WJ
WJ, perhaps that is because I've already addressed them a couple times. I just addressed them again. Yes, the Bible uses personification. WE GET IT. It uses personification A LOT. We find examples everywhere, and of many things. I did address your points on personification. But you did not address mine.
Quote And you mentioned water and blood and the holy spirit all being impersonal? You are very wrong my friend. Water is the one ingredient in this world that is necissary for life. It is a perfect substance. Is there anything in the universe like water? It's a phenomenon like fire, the human mind cannot understand phenomenon..therefore you cannot say water is impersonal. -rokka man,
Wow, why do people keep saying this.
Do you really think “Water” is a person? No one is denying that water is great. I love it. It is swell.
And I can and do say water is impersonal.
But can you say it is a person? You haven't so far.Quote And blood is also an essential part of life, is is actually living (cells). So blood and water are both strongly alive and can bear witness through the intellect that governs them which is God Now a chair is impersonal, it'll let anyone sit on it.
–Rokkaman.
WJ, and other trinitiarins…
Do you agree with Rokkaman's thinking?Is a chair impersonal BECAUSE it will let anyone sit in it.
Well, this glass of water will let anyone drink it.Your reasoning is bizarre. You know the chair was at least once made of a living thing? But it too is an impersonal thing, not a person, that can think or reason.
Quote Did you also know if you take a sample of your blood and drive it 10miles away from you…your blood responds to any stimuli you undergo? Who here other than Rokka man believes this? Nick, you are a doctor. What is he talking about?
Quote And like i said, water is a phenonmenon just like fire…we will never understand it's origins. So you cannot say it's impersonal especially when it is the core of all life on this planet.
Perhaps you and I differ greatly on what “impersonal” means.“1. Lacking personality; not being a person…”
Fire and Water are not persons. If you believe they are, then perhaps your efforts are best served debating someone else who believes they are. I do not. I'll never think that water is a person.
As for understanding water's origins, it's 2 parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. You can create it out of these things.
Quote All you gotta do is simply google…is the holy spirit a person. –rokkaman.
Rokka, I would start with googling “impersonal definition.”
Then, I would check the BIBLE and see what it says about God's holy spirit.
Quote (david @ May 14 2010,19:38) Quote Just a quick response since i happen to be awake at 4am. –SF
Quote Hey David again… its 5am now.. –SF
When do you sleep?
Quote You really made a puzzle around this that can make you easily accusable.
How so?WJ, you have to get a new name. I told you “Worshiping Jesus” was a bad name. In the past page, Dennison referred to you 3 times as JW. (Which is both confusing and slightly ironic.)
Quote In your response to my post you completely skimmed over the scriptures that prove the personality of the Holy Spirit which I will get to later. –WJ
WJ, perhaps that is because I've already addressed them a couple times. I just addressed them again. Yes, the Bible uses personification. WE GET IT. It uses personification A LOT. We find examples everywhere, and of many things. I did address your points on personification. But you did not address mine.
I dont know!! lol its 3am today!!!im so tired!!
I need rest…
i still havent found the time to respond to the very first ones.
about the accusable thing, is that i saw the comment abuot how you framed the questiosn to be similiar or nearly the same question. and at times it seems that you are argueing against what Jesus said. but i get that you are not.
and than the tangent we went off in the rebuttle didnt help either so ya….lead me to assume your positionWORSHIPING JESUS, i will never again abbreviate the user name. lol
again 3 in the mourning… its hard to concentrate. and very ironic lol.i havent addressed anything of yours! your right! its because… i kindof forgot about this thread… sry!
i went off into another discussion that sparked my curiousity.
I love Psychology so the study of people intrests me and why they do things.Good night brother its 3:20 now… i think im finaly going to sleep early….
Quote (karmarie @ May 13 2010,21:48) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 12 2010,17:11) KARMARIE: Thx im glad to being able to partcipate! Idk abuot Jesus being literaly in us…. in scrpitures it says the He is by the right hand of Power and that he is in intercession for us day and night without ceasing. When it comes to the trinity… you cant limit God to one idea (as in we cannot limit God to our own understanding, like try to imagine God… or eternity… your really cant its to much) … i mean its God! its like time, space, and matter are all co-existing…. and Water which is ice, liquid, and vapor… all one source. My Point is that God is God, discover who He is with your bible, in your closet, you and him alone. Dont draw up your own conclusions… God is real. Ask Him. Pray, pray and pray. He loves it when you seek Him. Thats why the scriptures are there, for us to read and take time with the author of it all.
Thanks for those words DennisonWise words too you are right God is beyond our imperfect understanding our small minds (like an ant trying to figure us out only way more than that) I mean how can we evn attempt to create what has been created here (apart from some plastic wind up toy that repeats itself over and over and then eventually breaks!) I dont actually even try to figure it all out (I dont even read these debate threads usually) because I dont know so how can someone else know for sure? God is Spirit God desires those who worship him in spirit and in truth, with our whole heart God is love our Father in Heaven.
I hope the best for you! I love you very much!I hope to dont come across to aggresive in my other points and threads.
i can be dramatic at times.
I am Human.
We are like an ant compared to God.
The bible says in Matthew that you shall know them by their fruits.I guess where you hear the Heart of God, and where you feel is love, thats where you should move closer too.
Its all about Love.
If there is no love in anything we do than we are nothing.
1 corinthians 13.God has alot of love! He is love 1 john 4:8
Love is not always so dandy and pretty like we want to picture it.
Love suffers, like 1 corinthians says.
Because you love, you will hate what is unholy.
Follow Gods love,
Jesus expressed his Love,If anything I say means nothing, go to scripture
He doesnt say that he loves you literally in first person,
He says how he loves his people, and etc.
but God never really said that “I love you” statmentHe shows you that he loves you.
He loves you so much, that look for his love in other people.
1 john 4
talks about love alot, and how we also have to love eachother,i like the point he makes in vs 20:
that if we say that we love God and hate our brother, than that person is a liar,
How can we say that we love not the person we can see, but love the one we cannot see?I love you!
God bless you!
ani Ahaba atenna (I think that hebrew for i love you, i been studying hebrew and i have been learning how to read and write, im getting the hang of reading the bible in Hebrew, its amazing!)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 12 2010,18:00) Quote (david @ May 08 2010,18:41) The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!
DavidBTW, have you ever questioned why the Apostles didn't baptize in the name of Jehovah?
I wonder why Paul never used the name “Jehovah” in his greetings?
Just something to think about, huh?
WJ
Bump!Hi WJ,
I am glad you have noticed that they baptised in the name of Jesus.
Why do you choose another path?“How does a non person “testify” of someone?”–thinker
Are “The Blood” and “The Water” persons? Yet, they are said to testify or to bear witness. And they are in agreement. Are they persons Thinker? What do you think? Is your logic sound? Do you use personification every day like most humans?
Quote (david @ May 14 2010,18:14) Let's look at this in point form: POINT FORM:
-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
–The Bible gives no indication that the holy spirit was worshiped.
–The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures give no hint even that the holy spirit is a person, much less that it is worshiped as God. (They viewed God’s spirit as something God possesses.)
–The holy spirit is never portrayed as a person, sitting on a throne for example…it's shown to be God's finger, his hand, a dove, fire, etc, etc….but never shown or pictured as a distinct person.
–The holy spirit is left out on a whole lot–knowing what God knows–being there pictured with Jesus and his Father in all the visions, etc.
–It is without question given a secondary position in scripture. (John 17:3) All the greetings of the apostle Paul's letters, not to mention James, Peter and John open by saying something like: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) They seem to be unfamiliar with the third part of the trinity. Why?
–The holy spirit has no distinctive name unlike Jehovah and Jesus and everyone else.
–The holy spirit is God's holy spirit, “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” It is something God possesses.
–The capital letters in your Bible that show Holy Spirit mean absolutely nothing. The Greek word for spirit is neuter and most Greek manuscripts employ “it” with reference to the holy spirit.
–The holy spirit is used in parallel with very impersonal things–water and fire for example. Another example: “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.” (2 cor 6:4-6)
–You can be filled with holy spirit just as you can be filled with wisdom and faith or joy. Lumping the holy spirit in with impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
–The holy spirit being part of a trinity was not really an established belief until a few hundred years after Christ, coincidentally, many other apostasy like changes had occurred around this time.
–It's quite often spoken of in a way that indicates it is not a person. It is referred to as a “gift.” It is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. It can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. Holy spirit was ‘given,’ and ‘poured out upon,’ It can be quenched. People can drink of it. The holy spirit also renews us and must be stirred up within us. Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it.
–In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship and love between himself and his Father. He doesn't do this of the holy spirit.These are the facts. They are indisputable.
David………Good post, i also see Spirit the same way, (IT) is NOt a Being (IT) is what is (IN) a Being. God the FATHER Shares HIs Spirit with Us and is functioning in all Creation. Again Good post brother.peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
David, and all,
It continues to flummocks me as to why people view the Holy Spirit as a Dove.
Where in Sciptures is the Holy Spirit shown to be a Dove? – Because it alighted on Jesus “LIKE a Dove”.
This in no way portays the Holy Spirit AS a Dove. Read carefully: “Like a Dove” – This means a “Light Fluttering, Delicately, Gently”.
The people of the time would be completely familiar with Doves and their ways and Doves were portrayed as the gentlest of birds, White, unblemished with colour.
It is wrong to portray God's Holy Spirit as a flesh and blood creature, to animate His Holy Spirit as a creature offered as a Sacrifice. Trinitarians and Pheumanarians and Pentecostals portray the Holy Spirit as a Dave – which, quite strangely, goes against their claim that it is a Person(!!)
They happily claim that the Holy Spirit is a Person but would not DARE to depict in art as a person – why, they depict God as a Person, and the Son of God as a Person. God is even depicted with a human face – Where did they get that from – have they seen the face of God?
WJ, says, “in Effective”, that God does not have a name because we do not know how to pronouce “YHVH” despite thae fact we know it means “I AM” (or “I Will BE”). So if Trinitarians can't give God a name that means “I AM/I Will Be” how then do they give him a Face when they know nothing about his face (Mind you, do JW's do that too?)
Other than that – Good post.
Quote (david @ May 14 2010,02:14) Let's look at this in point form: POINT FORM:
-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
DavidAnd none of the above negates that the Father and Jesus himself can do all those things and become all those things you speak of.
Are you saying God who is a Spirit cannot fill you?
Are you saying God is not referred to as a “Rock” a “shield” a “Buckler” a “Strong tower” a “fortress” a “hiding place” a “Keeper” Etc. Etc.
There are many impersonal metaphors ascribed to God. So what does your post prove?
God is Love, God is a fire, and can also fill us as scriptures clearly teach.
You completely ignore the many scriptures that speak of the acts of the Holy Spirit without the mention of the Father and Jesus. You also ignore many scriptures that prove the Holy Spirit is personal!
Does an impersonal or amorphous force or power have its own “Temple”?
What? know ye not that “your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you“, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19
Oh but wait, we also see our body is the “Temple of God”…
Know ye not that “ye are the temple of God“, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for “YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, AND WALK IN THEM: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 1 Cor 6:16
But according to David, God doesn't dwell in us and walk in us as a person for God cannot fill us for if he did then he would be an “It” or a “Thing” or some amorphous force or power!
The Temple of God or of the Holy Spirit is where God dwells. We are a habitation for God both individually and corporately.
Jesus said…
And I will pray the Father, and “he shall give you another (allos) Comforter (paraklētos)”, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, “AND SHALL BE IN YOU”. John 14:16, 17
What do you say about the following scripture David?
”NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT”: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
If the Spirit is being called Lord then the Spirit is a person.
David, your own Bible says “Now Jehovah is the Spirit…“
So yes the Bible does say the Holy Spirit is God!
Read the context David for this verse is calling the Spirit of the living God, the Lord!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ May 20 2010,11:36)
WJ, says, “in Effective”, that God does not have a name because we do not know how to pronouce “YHVH” despite thae fact we know it means “I AM” (or “I Will BE”)
This is a lie and a misrepresentation of what I have said.Present proof that I said God does not have a name!
I have repeatedly said we do not know the pronuciation of the name YHWH, neither did the Apostles or Jesus speak the name that we know of.
I will report your lies to the moderator from here on out.
WJ
JA
Quote (JustAskin @ May 20 2010,11:36) Trinitarians and Pheumanarians and Pentecostals portray the Holy Spirit as a Dave – which, quite strangely, goes against their claim that it is a Person(!!)
Why don't you present some proof of this. I know many Trinitarians and Pentecostals and do not know of any that believes that the Holy Spirit is a flesh and blood bird.More of your misrepresentations.
Do you know who the Father of lies is?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 21 2010,07:19) Quote (david @ May 14 2010,02:14) Let's look at this in point form: POINT FORM:
-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
DavidAnd none of the above negates that the Father and Jesus himself can do all those things and become all those things you speak of.
Are you saying God who is a Spirit cannot fill you?
Are you saying God is not referred to as a “Rock” a “shield” a “Buckler” a “Strong tower” a “fortress” a “hiding place” a “Keeper” Etc. Etc.
There are many impersonal metaphors ascribed to God. So what does your post prove?
God is Love, God is a fire, and can also fill us as scriptures clearly teach.
You completely ignore the many scriptures that speak of the acts of the Holy Spirit without the mention of the Father and Jesus. You also ignore many scriptures that prove the Holy Spirit is personal!
Does an impersonal or amorphous force or power have its own “Temple”?
What? know ye not that “your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you“, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19
Oh but wait, we also see our body is the “Temple of God”…
Know ye not that “ye are the temple of God“, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for “YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I WILL DWELL IN THEM, AND WALK IN THEM: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 1 Cor 6:16
But according to David, God doesn't dwell in us and walk in us as a person for God cannot fill us for if he did then he would be an “It” or a “Thing” or some amorphous force or power!
The Temple of God or of the Holy Spirit is where God dwells. We are a habitation for God both individually and corporately.
Jesus said…
And I will pray the Father, and “he shall give you another (allos) Comforter (paraklētos)”, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, “AND SHALL BE IN YOU”. John 14:16, 17
What do you say about the following scripture David?
”NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT”: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
If the Spirit is being called Lord then the Spirit is a person.
David, your own Bible says “Now Jehovah is the Spirit…“
So yes the Bible does say the Holy Spirit is God!
Read the context David for this verse is calling the Spirit of the living God, the Lord!
WJ
WJ,I think your post helped me understand how to respond to Davids point, and some elses point that
the holy spirit does not have a throne.I been trying to really refer to scriptures about the throne the holy spirit.
and just like you have said, Holy spirit doesnt need one, its in you.
God never meant for man kind to be seperated from himself.
The whole point is for God to be your everything,
and that he is even inside you.did you know that your body is the darkest place in the world literally.
because there is no light in it. it only can come through the eyes and other openings that can let light in.but literally there is no light in ur body.
but God says in revelations, that there will be NO SHADOW. that God will be our light.
that means even inside us, which is the very temple of the Holy Spirit will be filled with light.
So to have a response, to the debate about the thrones. maybe thats the whole point,
the Lord our God, the King of this universe, inside us forever. Making the very body his temple. a forever union for God and his beloved.
Just a point to bring outoh and david, i have been procrastinating. I know i still havent responded. but for me to respond with so much detail i would have to take alot of time for it, which i have not.
What do ya think?
Quote (david @ May 20 2010,00:42) “How does a non person “testify” of someone?”–thinker Are “The Blood” and “The Water” persons? Yet, they are said to testify or to bear witness. And they are in agreement. Are they persons Thinker? What do you think? Is your logic sound? Do you use personification every day like most humans?
DavidThis is weak indeed. Blood and water are inanimate objects and cannot move, speak, hear, understand, love, comfort, strengthen, give life, create, Etc. Etc.
A dead dog testifys that it once lived!
Is that all you have? Find some inanimate objects or anything that can do the things that the Holy Spirit who has his own distinct identity does, and you might have a case. Otherwise you are stuck with the unambiguous proof that the Holy Spirit is a living person sent from the Father and Jesus!
WJ
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