Matthew 28:19–what does it prove?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2010,22:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2010,08:37) Mike The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit is my “Only True God”, for they are “One”, “One Spirit” Three persons, One God! WJ Hi WJ, So your God is different from the apostle Paul's God?  Jesus calls only the Father “my God”.  So your God is not the same as Jesus' God, either?      I'll follow scripture and try to emulate those righteous ones spoken of there, thanks. peace and love, mike

Mike

Not so for Paul and Peter and John and Thomas and many Church Fathers call him their God!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You prefer confusion and spreading it is your hope.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi JA

Quote (JustAskin @ May 26 2010,18:31)

WJ, Can I ask you: When you read something like 1 Thessalonians 4:8, '…God, who has given us His Holy Spirit'. How do you reconcile that with the Trinity?

Thanks for admitting that it is God that gives us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our “paraklētos” or our counselor. The same word is used by Jesus in John 14:16 – John 14:26 – John 15:26 and John 16:7. It also is the same word used for Jesus in 1 John 2:1. So right off the bat we see clearly that the Holy Spirit like Jesus is also a person.

You said “God who has given us his Holy Spirit”, so why do you not include Jesus in that one God since he also sent or gives the Holy Spirit? (John 15:26 and 16:7)

Not only that, but Jesus is the “Baptiser” in the Holy Spirit and fire! (Matt 3:11- Luke 3:16) So before you get carried away about how he cannot be a person because the Holy Spirit can fill someone with power and fire, the Father and Jesus also can fill us with power and fire for our God is a consuming fire! The reason for this is they are “One”!

Here is an interesting scripture to show that the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Jesus as well as the Spirit of the Father!

for I know that through your prayers and “the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ“, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance. Phil 1:19

Here we see the Spirit is also the Spirit of Jesus giving help and since we know that there is only “One Spirit” then we have to conclude that they are “One”!

We also read…

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit,”IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN YOU. And if anyone does not have “THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST”, he does not belong to Christ. Rom 8:9

Here we see Paul again referring to the Spirit of God as the Spirit of Christ! But again the trump is there is only “One Spirit” that we have been made to drink of. 1 Cor 12:13 – Eph 2:18 and Eph 4:4

So your opening premise is only partly true and assumes that the Spirit of God is only of the Father!

Quote (JustAskin @ May 26 2010,18:31)

God gives His Holy Spirit.

Yep and so does Jesus!

Quote (JustAskin @ May 26 2010,18:31)

God gave His Son…to save mankind.

Yep and Jesus also laid down his own life of his own accord. He had power to lay it down and to take it again!

Quote (JustAskin @ May 26 2010,18:31)

God gives the Father? Is there such a verse? Why not?

No Because the Father gives himself in the person of the Son and the Holy Spirit! They are One Spirit!

Quote (JustAskin @ May 26 2010,18:31)

Co-Equality? why the Holy Spirit, and the Son, but not the Father?

Co-Equality in the Trinitarian faith does not speak to the rank among the three persons. Co-Equality speaks to the nature of the three!

Quote (JustAskin @ May 26 2010,18:31)

Scriptures says 'God the Father' but never 'God the Holy Spirit' nor 'God the Son',…why?  God, the Father, gave His Holy Spirit. God the Father gave His Son. Please help me understand, or not!

Scriptures do say The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God!

All I can do is show you scriptures, you have to find the understanding through the help of God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!

Jesus said…

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. John 16:12

Do you think that 66 books contains everything to know about an infinite God and his nature?

The Trinity is a contrived doctrine based on the whole council of God found in the scriptures that was revealed as time went on. The proof of this is the writings of John which were some 30 to 40 years later than the other writings. The differences are obvious and show that John was revealed many things later that the others did not know! The Church Fathers even from the first century like Ignatius who was a disciple of John also confessed the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God! Today there are millions of believers all over the world that know and believe in the Oneness of the three. Most of the fruit of feeding the poor and meeting the needs of people throughout the world are Trinitarians! Jesus said you will know them by their fruit!

My faith was set 36 years ago when Jesus came to me without any knowledge of God or the Trinity, and showed me that he was my Lord and My God just like Thomas confessed without hesitation and without rebuke by John or the Master himself! To this day I have never traded my Jesus for another one!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Of course the Spirit is of God.
And now the Lord is the Spirit.

Jesus was anointed with this Spirit and he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil.[Acts 10]

Can you tell us again why you think this Spirit is another third person?

[Arnold]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2010,14:52)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 27 2010,16:43) Satan is a created thing. Yeshua is the CREATOR of “all things” (John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2). That should give you a clue Mike. Clearly these two are not equivalent beings…. Hi Paul, So you will ignore the fact that Jesus is the “firstborn of all creation”, the “beginning of the creation of God”, the “only begotten Son” and other scriptures? Forget the scriptures just for a second.  Use common sense.  When in the history of the world has a son been the same exact being as his father?  How much clearer could the Bible have said it?  There is a Father.  There is His Son.  The Son was begotten by the Father.  For me to be able to dispute all these clear signs and the many, many others, I would need a scripture that point blank said, “Jesus is God the Son, co-equal with God the Father.”  Why the mystery?  Did God intend for us to not clearly understand how and who to worship?  No.  This division comes from that other mighty god, Satan.  The one who is the god of this world. ps, I never implied Jesus and Satan were equivalent beings.  Jesus has the distinction of being the only being directly caused to exist by God.  Satan is one of the “everything else” that was created by God through Jesus. What I implied – nea, what I clearly said was that both Jesus and Satan are gods, but not the Almighty God.  If Roo wants to cry, let him.  I spoke scripturally correctly. peace and love, mike

Wait a minute, you are putting Jesus on the same level then Satan?  Are you out of your mind!!!!!! No way.  Jesus was the firstborn of all creation a Son of God!!! Satan is a fallen Angel.  He wanted to be like God Himself and throw Him of His Throne…. Jesus saw Satan fallen like lightning from Heaven.  He now is here on earth and given us with the third of the Angel that went with him trouble, and God uses him to test us, just like He did with Job.  You have to make yourself clear when you say both are God's, then you putting both on the same level…. Jesus is not just a God, He is the Son of God there lies the difference…. and you did not state that…..He is a Mighty God and Satan is not… another difference. Otherwise people will come after you and say what I just did….
Peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2010,00:25)

Hi WJ, Of course the Spirit is of God. And now the Lord is the Spirit. Jesus was anointed with this Spirit and he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil.[Acts 10] Can you tell us again why you think this Spirit is another third person?

NH

Because Jesus said the Holy Spirit was “another” person!

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another (allos) Comforter (paraklētos), that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
No reading between the lines and using inference is not sufficient as a way of treating the sacred words.

You should surely know better by now ..
unless you are unteachable.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2010,00:58)

Hi WJ, No reading between the lines and using inference is not sufficient as a way of treating the sacred words. You should surely know better by now .. unless you are unteachable.

Reading between what lines?

The scripture is clear, it seems that you are the one unteachable!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You have not shown one scripture that says the Spirit of God and Christ is another person.
So what do you mean?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2010,16:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2010,00:25) Hi WJ, Of course the Spirit is of God. And now the Lord is the Spirit. Jesus was anointed with this Spirit and he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil.[Acts 10] Can you tell us again why you think this Spirit is another third person? NH Because Jesus said the Holy Spirit was “another” person! And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another (allos) Comforter (paraklētos), that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16 allos – adjective (modifys the noun), which means; “another, other” Paraklētos – Masculine noun, which means; summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid, one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate You do know who your Councelor or Advocate is don't you NH? He stands by your side as well as lives inside of you, that is if you have the Holy Spirit! Oh thats right you believe the scriptures are corrupt! Is John 14:16 one that you white out of your Bible Nick? WJ

Excellent point Keith.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
God is spirit.
The Lord is the Spirit.
Do you not know God and His son?
You can commune with them in the Spirit if you are reborn from above

[JustAskin]

WJ,

I read one third of your post and abandoned the rest as your response is not only in a setting of ignorance of what I believe but also erroneous of Scripture.

Also, I don't indulge in humungus posts that lose focus on the points of issue.

I have never claimed anything other than that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. This is esconched all throughout the whole of Scriptures.
The Holy Spirit of God…what is there that is a new revelation you think I am admitting. In fact, it is You, WJ, who is doing the admission, as I have revealed….'you are speaking truth…at times…but do not know it'!

Is it not Trinitarians who say that the Holy Spirit 'IS' God. As Mikeboll asks, 'How can something be 'OF' something AND 'BE' that same something? 'Hair of the dog'. Is the hair, then, that dog, the same substance as the dog. Can the hair bark, can it procreate can it bite, snarl.
Can it lick it's own, feed off it's own, vomit?

Please give me ANY example of such a thing.

Co-equality in nature. P-l-e-a-s-e…WJ, what are you smoking?
Please explain what the nature of God is? And how the Holy Spirit is that same nature and how Jesus is that same nature.

God is light, for instance, is Jesus light? Analogically, yes, actuality, no, just the Bearer OF That Light, which means Bearer of Truth. God is the owner, the source, the emitter of the light, the truth. The Holy Spirit IS The Spirit of Truth, which is From God. Jesus is the Bearer of that Truth, which is….you get the picture…

You say, rightly, yet not understand, that the Trinity was 'Contrived'. Holy of Holies…Truth beyond Truth, WJ is coming alive in Truth….slowly slowly, just as Microsoft is slowly aligning it's Internet Explorer browser with the truth of consistency of browser compliance…slowly slowly so it appears that they were always compliant…that's two things you now comply witj that you would say you always did say…still, if it is your way, anyway that leads to the truth of God is, must, be, a good way,'for noone can call him Lord unless the Spirit is Truth is in him'. But, WJ, don't boast yet, you are still only in the fringes, the edge of the precipice.
Just think, if you were at the door of sin, who would you want to help to pull you through, KJ, perhaps, the Trinity?

Please show me 'Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God'

You happily make the claim but where do you make the claim from, or more 'contrivance'.

If ..statement.. How is heirachy built into coequality…coequal in nature…you make me laugh…so Jesus is man, is coequal to God who is all powerful, is coequal with the wind which is from the father, God. WJ,…

[karmarie]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2010,13:31)

Quote (karmarie @ May 28 2010,15:37) This is how I understand it … I just want to learn not debate but it seems here more debating than learning which doesnt really help anyone. Hi Karmarie, If you want to learn, just ask a question.  Many here will be able to point you to the scripture(s) that might have the answer you're looking for. I will always be happy to tell others how I believe and what scripture(s) lead me to believe that way.  Many read the same scriptures and get a different conclusion, though. Then comes the part where you have to pray for understanding on what the scripture in question REALLY means. peace and love, mike

Thankyou for noticing Mike. Your so nice.

All I can say is this.

“By their fruit you will know them.

And the fruit of the Spirit is:  

Love
Joy
Peace
Long-suffering
Kindness
Goodness
Faith
Meekness
Temperance”..Galatians 5:22..

Its so strange, sometimes I post here, without thinking (just reading you know) then I think 'why did I do that'? I know either TT will say something snarly back or WJ will just ignore me, so whats the point? I have to learn not to do that. Seriously.

[JustAskin]

WJ,
Why are we to 'Fear God' but 'love Jesus'.
How do you 'Fear' the nature of one but 'love' the nature of another Who is, Not only, the same nature as the first but actually, by trini words, THAT SAME one.

We have two eyes, two hands, two feet…they are of the same nature, flesh and blood. They form a unity of purpose … because they are 'controlled' by a 'head' that directs their activities. They are of the same body as a whole, all parts performing that which they are directed to perform. Are they, then, that 'head', the 'brain' that provides them with the 'instructions'.
The Holy Spirit contains many parts of 'God' that He, God, directs to perform His wonders in the world. Are your Arms 'brain', Are your feet 'Brain'..because they perform?

The 'head' and 'body' of God are not God, else we should worship them, worship your hand and feet and eyes?
WJ, do you worship Jesus?
Do you worship the Holy Spirit?

Did I ask before, did you answer?

I find it fascinating that you don't use or talk about the Holy Spirit in your posts much. Is it not a little disingenuous to a 'coequal godhead partner' who does not have a rulership of it's own, is not mentioned in the greetings of the Apostles and the Saints, does not speak of it's own, but only what it 'hears' from Jesus and God, is GIVEN by both God of Himself, and Christ, from God, and thence of Christ, himself, that 'It' can be SHARED out, POURED out on and into believers.
Is God 'poured out'? Is Jesus 'poured out'?
Why can it be poured out like water, like a gasseous 'wind' having no perceivable 'form', yet we know God has form and Jesus has form. By the way, 'form' i'm not meaning just Spirit.

WJ,

You are seriously discrediting yourself in this forum…and as for claiming how Trinity has stood the test of time …it hasn't…it's just graniteheaded ones, ignorance and 'needing to belong to the crowd' that has maintained it…as the Scriptures prophecies.

What do you think 'Come out of her, lest you share in her iniquities' means?
Two things:
1) That 'She' would be maintained
2) That one CAN come out of her
More…but I name only two.

[GeneBalthrop]

JA…………I have for years struggled with WJ and JA and Isa1:18 , to come our of those false Trinitarians teachings and it is like their blindness will not allow them to. I would like you to read the MAN of SIN thread and see what you think.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[JustAskin]

Gene,

Thanks for the offer but perhaps there is a reason for their obstanacy.

Perhaps they have been 'given over' by God to be opposers.

You or I will not change them no matter what we do. Are we stronger than God?

What then should we make of them?

I conjecture this: They are tools to be used to help make us more refined in our belief in the One God of the Prophets and the revealed God of the revelation and testimony of Christ.

I have said it myself, and others have also said it, that if it were not for them I would not have looked, searched, researched, refined, my understanding and belief.

Also, recently, I said that I am glad that I did not change them by my own wishes, for I did once have that notion, or else what use would there be for Jesus and ultimate justice in his judgement?

Not withstanding that we should strive to save our brothers, 'for there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than in all the rest that do not require repentence', also, 'He who brings his brother over to God covers a multitude of his own sins'.

But, was Judas always to be the one who would betray Christ? Or would it be just 'One of [them]'? For is it not written,'for such things must be, but woe unto him through which such things come'

Gene, this means that there are some given over already, just as there are those saved, BUT noone can say that either way of themselves, for Satan is not unaware of those whom God has chosen, those whom are in flux, neither hot nor cold for God's word, and which are his. But, again, this course is not fixed for the majority, so they can change, either way, for betterment or, for worsement but that God desires all to be given the chance to believe and be saved – this is the promise of Salvation brought with the blood of Christ.

So, back to the 'tool', a Bradawl, to help make headway through Scriptures by providing a resistive force so we don't become overconfident, complacent, boastful, in our understanding and mislead others.

And what are Bradawls? The dictionary defines them as:
'Small Boring Tools'…!

[GeneBalthrop]

JA………Amen brother. I feel compelled to try to help all, i carry no animosity or hate for no one and love all and believe we will ultimately all come to understanding , God is able to Save All. But as it say to each in his own time.

JA…….Would really like to know your understanding on the Man of SIN spoken of in 2Ths 2, I believe there is no such real person as the man of sin , but that it is the creation of Jesus as a GOD that creates this (False Image of the Man of Sin), something He will abolish at his return, remember it say God would send the a deluding Spirit (in order for them to believe THE LIE, that lie is that Jesus is a GOD. IMO

peace and love to you and yours brother………………………….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 29 2010,04:54)

WJ, I read one third of your post and abandoned the rest as your response is not only in a setting of ignorance of what I believe but also erroneous of Scripture. Also, I don't indulge in humungus posts that lose focus on the points of issue.

JA

Fine! That let it be known from here on out this is why I will not respond to some of your post in the future!

Why do you waste my time asking questions, and then when I respond to you point by point, then you simply respond back with patronizing and ad hominems without addressing my points?

So, say what ever you want and believe as you want, but please do not waste my time when you are not even going to at least give my post consideration and at least read it and respond to my points and the scriptures I provide.

JA, if I was to say “the Spirit of JA” is patronizing and unwilling to learn, would I not be speaking of you?  

If I say the “Spirit of Man” knows the things of a man, is that not the man? Think about it and have a good life!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 29 2010,06:12)

WJ, Why are we to 'Fear God' but 'love Jesus'.

JA

What, are you wanting to change gears now. Are you trying to avoid the “One Spirit” issue?

I have answered this, but why should I bother since you won't read or respond to my answer!

Go play with someone else who will play your game!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………..If you understood what SPIRIT really is , it would save a lot of confusion, there are many Spirits (intellects) that is all that Spirit is, there is a Spirit (intellect) of Man, there is a Spirit (intellect) of GOD, there is a Unclean spirit (intellect) and a clean spirit (intellect) and on and on it goes, There is the the HOLY Spirit (Holy INTELLECT) of GOD. Spirit has not a (Singular) but a (Plural) form of meaning. It is the (intellect) directing the MIND, “LET THIS (MIND) BE (IN) YOU THAT WAS IN (CHRIST) JESUS OUR Lord”. and again “IF THE SPIRIT THAT WAS IN CHRIST JESUS BE (IN) YOU, (IT) SHALL ALSO QUICKEN YOUR MORTAL BODY”. WJ think about it>

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

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