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“. . . Matthew 28:19 is unambiguous evidence that the early Apostles and Church Fathers believed in a Trinity.”–WJ
The fact that 3 were mentioned in no way proves anything other than the fact that some can count to 3!
QUESTION 1: If these three are a trinity, would it not be a disrespect of immense magnitude to continually count them as only 2?
QUESTION 2: If 3 being mentioned together once proves something, what does 2 being mentioned together numerous times prove? (Think about the reason that either proves anything)
A few examples:
1 CORINTHIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
GALATIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
EPHESIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
PHILIPPIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
COLOSSIANS 1:2
“to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·lośsae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.”
1 TIMOTHY 1:2
“to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
2 TIMOTHY 1:2
“May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
TITUS 1:4
“May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and UNEXPLAINABLE OVERSIGHT if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!
QUESTION 3: If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well? (Is he not conscious of us or does he just not care to send a greeting?)
QUESTION 4: If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations? (What does it mean that Paul was unaware of the holy spirit being part of a triune God?)
QUESTION 5: If Paul actually believed the holy spirit was part of a triune God, would it not have been insubordination of the highest level to continually ignore “him?”
QUESTION 6: In light of the multitude of times Jehovah and Jesus are mentions as two, what can we make of the one time that “the holy spirit” is also mentioned?
QUESTION 7: Where JAMES, PETER, and JOHN also unaware of the trinity or were they just being disrespectful to part of the triune God? (They also have greetings with only God and Jesus mentioned. James 1:1; 1 John 1:3; 2 Pet 1:2) Also, does mentioning these 3 together prove anything?
QUESTION 8: Yes, Mat 28:19 mentions 3, but why is it that in none of Paul's writings, other than 2 Cor 13:14, is the holy spirit mentioned along with God and Jesus? (Here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the holy spirit.)
QUESTION 9: 1 John 1:3 tells us, “truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” If the holy spirit is part of the “godhead,” how could John leave it out of this?
QUESTION 10: Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” (1 Cor 8:6). He makes no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person, ever. Simply put, why didn't Paul know the holy spirit was part of the trinity?
David
Quote (JustAskin @ May 09 2010,11:52) David, Why did you only quote those verses?
Why didn't you just quote the WHOLE SCRIPTURES?
Which scriptures? The whole Bible? I've been through it. What I find is that the Father, Jesus and the holy spirit are no more mentioned as a triune, than certain disciples who are listed together more often.What I find is that it is the two, (God and his Son) who are repeatedly mentioned together.
Do you not find the greetings interesting in that the holy spirit is not greeting the congregations?
JA, do you believe Matthew 28:19 proves a trinity? If so, why don't you attempt an answer of any of those questions above?
In answer to your question, I quoted those verses because those verses show how the Bible writers viewed matters.
Which scriptures or parts of scripture are you referring to by “WHOLE SCRIPTURES”?
JA, can you answer any of the above? Have you thought about those questions at all? Or are they simply dismissed?
JAMES 1:1
“James, a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about: Greetings!”1 JOHN 1:3
“that which we have seen and heard we are reporting also to YOU, that YOU too may be having a sharing with us. Furthermore, this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.”2 PETER 1:2
“May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to YOU by an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,”Again, my question, JA:
If 3 being mentioned in one verse means something, what does 2 being mentioned in the rest mean?It's kind of like the argument: 'Well a scientist I know believes in Creation.'
Does it PROVE anything that one scientist believes in Creation, when 20 others believe in evolution?If 3 being mentioned once proves something, then 2 being mentioned the vast majority of time has to prove something too.
Hi David,
Great post!
I agree with you that it will probably not be one of the ones WJ “picks and chooses” to answer. 
I have one more point to add, if I may:
Why in New Jerusalem will there only be two thrones for members of the godhead? There is one for the Father and one for the Son. Where is the throne of the third equal member of the godhead?
peace and love,
mikeThankyou David and Mike, that was something I was having trouble understanding myself, you explained it well!
So what is the holy Spirit? Why do the early church writtings (anti nicene) describe the Holy Spirit (example one Father one Son and one Holy Spirit).. need to look more into this.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2010,22:35) Hi David, Great post!
I agree with you that it will probably not be one of the ones WJ “picks and chooses” to answer.
MikeHow about you answering a few questions instead of making false claims.
Here is a few you have not answered…
WJ
How are you David?
I'm Dennison!
I was recommended to come to this site by a friend and I see there are many debates, even though to be honest this is the first post that im looking at for this site.
I kind of don't understand how this works, because to me it seems to be Christian antagonizing Christians… or I might be wrong. Or believing in the Trinity or not, or Christian vs. lukewarm.
To be honest I just don’t understand. I'm hoping to understand the intentions and the position of the brothers in faith who are writing. Or however you want to call it.
but thats ok, with lots of love i would like to attempt to try to answer your questions!QUESTION 1: If these three are a trinity, would it not be a disrespect of immense magnitude to continually count them as only 2?
Thats a strange question. If God is who he says he is would it matter? In other words… The Lord God is called many names in the old testament, so wouldnt a better question be is why wouldnt it be disrespectful to Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament for not being counted? I believe that God is “I am, That i Am” and “YAWH” (idk how to spell it right) and that he is Jehovah-Rafa-Jireh and etc. El Shaddai? I mean wow there are alot of names for God in the old Testament. So wouldnt it be just as wrong to only name and mention one through out the old testament without mentioning the other. isnt that also a disrespect?
I think its irreverent how many are called, because its all the same Lord. God is the title of the abosulte perfect position of God. Its like saying, Hey Dennison! how are you, and Dennison spirit how are you! and Dennisons soul how was your day, many greetings!!Idk For God to only be Jesus is a limitation, to only being savoir, For God only being Father is a limiation of being only a creator and not being able to be part of us, and for God to only be the Holy spirit is a limitation to being will only our guide.
So i guess the only direct answer would be no, i believe it wouldnt be an insult to God. He is your father, brother, and friend. God is my everything, Scriptures said that we must hate our own mothers and fathers and family for him. not literally, but in a way that God should be first above everyone.
Than again how can i speak for God? I think we should go into prayer and ask Him. and mean if He is God, than of course why wouldn't He answer! =)
QUESTION 2: If 3 being mentioned together once proves something, what does 2 being mentioned together numerous times prove? (Think about the reason that either proves anything)
I would agree…. if it wasnt for your examples and whom in context was speaking.
1. Jesus was talking there, idk its kindof hard to argue with Jesus, i mean he did take down alot of pharasis and other people like that…
2. Proving that Apostles mentioned only 2 doesnt connect with what Jesus was saying.
3. What the Apostles understood is irrelevant to the understanding of Christ.
4. The Apostles were imperfect, i mean they made mistakes after Jesus resurrected, for example like when Paul called out Peter for kindof of ignoring the gentiles. You know what I mean?
5. All the scriptures used as examples were in epistles of Paul, what does that prove? I mean are we going to believe according to what only Paul believes or the whole bible?
6. What does a greeting prove compared to mandate from Christ?
QUESTION 3: If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well? (Is he not conscious of us or does he just not care to send a greeting?)
I kind of don’t understand this question. But what I think your saying is why didn’t Paul send a greeting that mentions or relates to the Holy Spirit along side the Father and the Son being mentioned.
Umm…. Well I think the Holy Spirit is part of our Daily life Style. We could argue that isnt also the Father and Jesus as well. Very True. But I think referring to what Jesus said that it benefited us for Jesus to leave so that the counselor may come, refering to the Holy Spirit. I think since now the Holy Spirit is active and apart of our Personal lifes, that it was unneeded. The Holy Spirit is Part of us.QUESTION 4: If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations? (What does it mean that Paul was unaware of the holy spirit being part of a triune God?)
no…. like I said before, The Holy Spirit is part of us all, there is no distance between us and the Holy Spirit assuming that we are Christians. I think Paul was very aware about the Holy Spirit and the purpose of the Holy Spirit that not mentioning him just shows that its in us. For example, its like calling my Cousin in Honduras and telling him that his mom who lives with him, says hi. ?Odd?
QUESTION 5: If Paul actually believed the holy spirit was part of a triune God, would it not have been insubordination of the highest level to continually ignore “him?”
I think im going to answer the same as before. There is no ignoring taking place. And Lucas as he wrote Acts mentioned many times how the Holy Spirit guided Paul, and giving orders and so on and so forth. I believe that the Apostles felt moved by the Holy Spirit to part Barnabas and Paul for missionary work right? (I’m in School right now and I don’t have my bible….! I know I didn’t think I was going to have time to check out the site…and actually write something.. oh well… its ok next time, but check it out for me.)
So I mean if Lucas mentioned the Holy Spirit, but not the Father and not Jesus, doesn’t that tell us something. That Lucas the investigator who wanted to know, must have asked Paul, and Paul told him the Holy Spirit. We could argue that Paul was called by Jesus in the way to Damascus. Welll… true but it goes back to the question… why wasn’t the father mentioned? Jesus said why do you persecute ME? Not the father… wouldn’t it also be a tragedy, or a sin for Jesus not to mention the Father as he was talking to Saul of Tarsus. So Paul did not ignore the existence of the Holy Spirit or its authority.
QUESTION 6: In light of the multitude of times Jehovah and Jesus are mentions as two, what can we make of the one time that “the holy spirit” is also mentioned?Well…I think the three are mentioned in the text that you are arguing… and Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit countless of times. Did I understand the question correctly?
QUESTION 7: Where JAMES, PETER, and JOHN also unaware of the trinity or were they just being disrespectful to part of the triune God? (They also have greetings with only God and Jesus mentioned. James 1:1; 1 John 1:3; 2 Pet 1:2) Also, does mentioning these 3 together prove anything?I think that goes back to the same point I make in question 2, 3,4,5…
I mean… If the Pastor say Gods love you, should he be afraid not to mention every single name of the Lord thy God?QUESTION 8: Yes, Mat 28:19 mentions 3, but why is it that in none of Paul's writings, other than 2 Cor 13:14, is the holy spirit mentioned along with God and Jesus? (Here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the holy spirit.)
I think that goes back to my earlier answers. I think im misundertanding the questions your not arguing the verse but the statement that the guy mj said right? (online bible time!) ok I get it now. Than I agree. With your statements.
I think its true in the way your arguing. But I think I’m taking a different road of disagreeing with the quote. I think what Jesus said was right, but not that the apostles had to believe it, the only way to know for sure is to study the
ir life’s.. Which I do believe that they did, but not that, that verse proves anything.
But going back to my point, that even though the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, doesn’t mean that the Apostles don’t believe in it either. I think the opposition doesn’t prove anything either.
QUESTION 9: 1 John 1:3 tells us, “truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” If the holy spirit is part of the “godhead,” how could John leave it out of this?
Context.
QUESTION 10: Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” (1 Cor 8:6). He makes no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person, ever. Simply put, why didn't Paul know the holy spirit was part of the trinity?
He did, and He mentioned it several times, and how it affected his life, and duty to the people.
If you would like we could mentioned bible verses and so on we can when I get out of school and after I eat. U know a guy has to eat.
If your reading this long reply, thank you for reading, im hoping that I haven’t insulted anyone, if I have im very sorry and please forgive me. Con mucho amor, with lots of Love i pray for blessings in your life and for those who are participating in the discussion and reading. God bless you! If we disagree than its ok! I still love you very much! And I hope you can find it in your Heart to love me as well as a brother! If we cannot ever agree than I know who has the Answer and it is God! So if we can never come to terms, lets sit and pray, meditate in the Lords presence, lets find God, and if He is who He says He is, than He will answer! I have faith in that!
James 1:4-5… 4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
And lets humble ourselves that we are merely human and an ant compared to God. God is the spirit of truth, and only He knows exactly how things are. If we are imperfect, there are times we will be wrong… I mean we are human. Only through God can we receive revelation. Lets not rely on our own understanding but in the Lords revelation.
Proverbs 16:2 (Whole Chapter)
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits
Proverbs 14:12 (Whole Chapter)
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Lets becareful to think that we are always right… let God be right. He deserves all the Glory, and honor. With the outmost respect God bless!
I know that God loves all of you very much,
I love you very much as my brothers and sisters and Christ!
I hope for the very best for all of you!
Con mucho Amor,
DennisonQuote (SimplyForgiven @ May 12 2010,09:35) To be honest I just don’t understand. I'm hoping to understand the intentions and the position of the brothers in faith who are writing. Or however you want to call it.
but thats ok, with lots of love i would like to attempt to try to answer your questions!
The forums are for debating, testing, and questioning all things. Something that Paul recommended we do.To test all things to see if they are so.
So the teachings like the Trinity and Oneness are compared with scripture to see if they are in agreement.
This tends to bring out all manner of emotions in some here. But we learn to deal with that and concentrate on what is written.
Hopefully the winner at the end of the day is the truth.
David,
Maybe I was a little too subtle for you.
Do you read any of my posts?
Do you not yet know what I stand for, what I believe, who my God is?
My point is… That the WHOLE of Scriptures, the whole Bible, shows there is no such thing as a Trinity Godhead.
The verse you quote is a debate thread between me and WJ. And there are many posts surroundings the outcome of that debate.
How do you come as if to accuse me.
I have illustrated, diagramatically, my vision of God's order. Have you not seen it? If you had you could not possibly include me as an unbeliever or, even worse, challenge me to answer your questions. Who else had done that, who else is confident of their vision as to publicise it? Not even the 'sure footed!' Trinitarians dare illustrate their unlikely Godhead for fear of ridicule.
I know, I challenged them. David, what of you? My vision is clear, how clear are you.
David, do you attack what you don't know? Or do you know the one you attack before you attack them, do you not fear the repercussions of wrongful jabbing, poking the tiger?When you enter this forum, over time, do you build a picture in your mind of the type of each person who posts here? Do you see them change as new information, new realisation, Godsent revelation, comes upon them,…or sheer hardheartedness, or incompetent thinking holds them in wrongful thought?
Who do you place in those categories? Do they remain in thise categories, or do they swap and change daily?
Who holds to what to what you believe to be truth? Who is an outright opposer to what you deem, truth?Where do you place me, JustAskin…?
Tell me, David, Are you Saved? Will you be going to Heaven, will you be an heir with Jesus Christ?
Hi
I think maybe Jesus is in everyone, why I say this is because as an example of some of what Dennison wrote. Jesus said “why do you persecute me” meaning his followers. Also it says that when Jesus comes again he will seperate (sheep and the goats) and he says “when I was hungry you fed me, lonely you visited me, a stranger you welcomed me” etc, they will ask “when did we see you hungry, lonely, a stranger” etc, and he says “when you do it to one of these you do it to me” so obviously Jesus is in his followers.
But obviously Jesus cant physically be in us, but If he was born by the Holy Spirit not having a human Father, then the Spirit as it says will come into his followers.
My Mum believes that as we all have a physical body, a Spirit, and a mind, its the same (God is the mind? Jesus became the body, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, it all being one and the same (or something like that)…ok that gets confusion. (only because it doesnt seem to fit with Scripture)
But I believ it is the Spirit that lives in us his followers.
I also find personally that sometimes I may get down on my knees and pray but usually I go about my day thinking on God and his word and I dont actually need to pray as in that way but I pray as I go about my day by conversating with God in my thoughts. (If that makes sense). And if I dont know something or need help with something I just ask and ideas and thoughts come.
But I know scripture is clear that we are to Worship God, Jesus told us to pray to our Heavenly Father, His God and our God?
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 11 2010,17:35) So I mean if Lucas mentioned the Holy Spirit, but not the Father and not Jesus, doesn’t that tell us something. That Lucas the investigator who wanted to know, must have asked Paul, and Paul told him the Holy Spirit. We could argue that Paul was called by Jesus in the way to Damascus. Welll… true but it goes back to the question… why wasn’t the father mentioned? Jesus said why do you persecute ME? Not the father… wouldn’t it also be a tragedy, or a sin for Jesus not to mention the Father as he was talking to Saul of Tarsus. So Paul did not ignore the existence of the Holy Spirit or its authority.
Hi SimplyForgivenWelcome.
I have been working on a post to David and you have taken some of the words out of my mouth. I tend to get wordy and sometimes it takes me awhile.
Anyway the post was directed at me but thanks for your input, you have made some valid points.
Blessings Keith
Quote (karmarie @ May 12 2010,10:31) Hi I think maybe Jesus is in everyone, why I say this is because as an example of some of what Dennison wrote. Jesus said “why do you persecute me” meaning his followers. Also it says that when Jesus comes again he will seperate (sheep and the goats) and he says “when I was hungry you fed me, lonely you visited me, a stranger you welcomed me” etc, they will ask “when did we see you hungry, lonely, a stranger” etc, and he says “when you do it to one of these you do it to me” so obviously Jesus is in his followers.
But obviously Jesus cant physically be in us, but If he was born by the Holy Spirit not having a human Father, then the Spirit as it says will come into his followers.
My Mum believes that as we all have a physical body, a Spirit, and a mind, its the same (God is the mind? Jesus became the body, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, it all being one and the same (or something like that)…ok that gets confusion. (only because it doesnt seem to fit with Scripture)
But I believ it is the Spirit that lives in us his followers.
I also find personally that sometimes I may get down on my knees and pray but usually I go about my day thinking on God and his word and I dont actually need to pray as in that way but I pray as I go about my day by conversating with God in my thoughts. (If that makes sense). And if I dont know something or need help with something I just ask and ideas and thoughts come.
But I know scripture is clear that we are to Worship God, Jesus told us to pray to our Heavenly Father, His God and our God?
Hi KM,
Jesus is in everyone??
Is this written?He was in Paul[gal3] and is in the brothers but the blessing of his Spirit has to be GIVEN
Hi Sorry I forgot to say welcome to SimplyForgiven…welcome!
Hi Nick ok Jesus cant live in his followers but the Spirit does.
Ok more thoughts, if my Mum (onesness believer?) were right, it couldnt be because if as she says we have a body mind and spirit, and she says God also has a body (Jesus) mind (God) and Spirit, if the spirit lives in us, then how could God go without his own Spirit? Then God would just be a mind and a Body.
So if the spirit lives in the followers, then it would make sense why in the op Paul mentioned only the Father and Jesus, because the Spirit was in him and all of them so he cant exactly address themselves too. It is the Spirit which leadeth to all truth which searches all things.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 12 2010,07:29) Mike How about you answering a few questions instead of making false claims.
Here is a few you have not answered…
Keith verses Mike
WJ
Really WJ?We've been locked off HN for 3 or 4 days, you just post something today that I haven't even read yet, and you link that as a slam to me about not answering it? Wow! I don't get home from work until 5 or 6 Arizona time. Give me a chance.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ May 12 2010,09:35) I kind of don't understand how this works, because to me it seems to be Christian antagonizing Christians… or I might be wrong. Or believing in the Trinity or not, or Christian vs. lukewarm.
To be honest I just don’t understand. I'm hoping to understand the intentions and the position of the brothers in faith who are writing. Or however you want to call it.
Welcome Dennison,It does seem that way, and some seem to be more angry than others at times, but I think most of us here are after truth. Unfortunately, truth for one is not always truth for another.
I stumbled on HN while looking for info about the trinity. And I have been gaining a deeper knowledge of the Scriptures ever since.
I welcome you with brotherly love even though it seems your views are different than mine. I'm sure if you stick around, we'll get a chance to discuss the differences Scripturally.
peace and love,
mikeJust to let everyone know….i have no idea how to qoute people correctly on this forum lol.. so im just going to respond all in one post.
t8: I see that there is alot of emotoins flying left and right… I do believe that we should test, but I would rather use a verse like 1 John 4:1, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
I like how John says, test the Spirit, not whats is said. I believe the intention of why someone is saying something or what do they gain out of it, is more important than what is said. Like a Pastor who realy cares about you being saved compared to one who wants your money. Get what im saying? I think whoever wins, is not important…all victory belongs to God and God alone. when we debate, its like we debate to be right, for us to be right, not for God to be right, or his will… why would God have to debate? he doesnt…. he doesnt even waste his time.. he always wins.Proverbs 16:2 “All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits”
KARMARIE: Thx im glad to being able to partcipate! Idk abuot Jesus being literaly in us…. in scrpitures it says the He is by the right hand of Power and that he is in intercession for us day and night without ceasing. When it comes to the trinity… you cant limit God to one idea (as in we cannot limit God to our own understanding, like try to imagine God… or eternity… your really cant its to much) … i mean its God! its like time, space, and matter are all co-existing…. and Water which is ice, liquid, and vapor… all one source. My Point is that God is God, discover who He is with your bible, in your closet, you and him alone. Dont draw up your own conclusions… God is real. Ask Him. Pray, pray and pray. He loves it when you seek Him. Thats why the scriptures are there, for us to read and take time with the author of it all.
WORSHIPPING JESUS: Thank you so much for welcoming me! I'm seeing that your stirring up alot of conflict with your previous debate, i will take a look when i got the chance.
Thank you for your critics! I'm happy to know that my points are at least valid. I hope we can further discuss more topics togethor! Idk if we agree in many aspects or not but im happy to know that im not alone… and that im not crazy…. that my ideas arnt far-fetched….MIKEBOLL64: Im happy to be here! We spend all our lifes searching for truth… the problem is that there is only one Truth. i would like to qoute a controversal pastor Paul Washer “Making all contradicting statements True, is the Death of Truth”
If we were to know it all, we would literally die…so we would have to be opened minded, as in humble to understand people. not accept but understand. For Example, When did the Devil fall? How many day or years passed between each 6 day creation? Many might say that the devil fell before creation.. few will say after, and many will say that it was one literal day as others would say it was thousands of years. even though i already have my own view on it, we have to understand that some grow up with there beliefs or are told by it. How much of our beliefs comes from God? Have we really submitted ourselves….? what we believe, we will live. So i think we can take many approaches but the only right approach is that God has the ultimate verdict, and its his way or the highway. The more we search for God, the more truth is revealed about himself. How do you get to know a person? by spending time with them, study them not only through what they have written and done, but by having a relationship. Not that im questioning yours in anyway. im just seeing alot of very direct questioning of salvation going around. It seems like a fight to the death in here.
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